[Khorothis]

This time I went for nice Warrior blocks and lots of casting, trying to be both fluffy and effective. Its not meant to be a shit ruining competitive powerfoot but I hope that I'll be able to put up a good fight even against gunlines.

Sorcerer Lord; lvl 4, MoT, Blood of Tzeentch - 320

Sorcerer; lvl 2, Lore of Death, Infernal Puppet - 155

Sorcerer; lvl 2, Lore of Death, Spell Familiar - 140

16xWarriors; Shields, MoT, Musician, Standard - 294

16xWarriors; Shields, MoT, Musician, Standard - 294

16xWarriors; Shields, MoT, Musician, Standard - 294

Total: 1497

 

[Sethis]

My advice would be to drop a Level 2 and buy every unit Halberds and better Marks (Khorne/Nurgle). Apart from that, it's fine.

 

[Khorothis]

I don't see why is a MoT-Shields combo inferior to a MoK-Halberd setup. I thought that the former is the most resilient and the latter the most killy version, and I just picked the one I like the most. Seriously, its news to me.

 

[Sethis]

it does come down to personal preference, but I think it's more efficient to win combats by killing the opponent rather than just surviving. Halberds also help a lot more against Heavy Cav by knocking them down to 3+ rather than 2+ saves. If you never face any then it's a moot concern, but that's down to your local opposition.

I will point out this though:

A 5-wide unit of Frenzied Halberd Warriors kill 11.66 WS3/T3/5+ infantry per turn.
A 5-wide unit of HW/Shield Tzeentch Warriors kill 5.9 WS3/T3/5+ infantry per turn.

A 5-wide unit of Frenzied Halberd Warriors take 0.91 Casualties from a 5 wide block of the above infantry. HW/Shield Warriors take somewhere in the region of 0.5 casualties.

Assuming that both sides have 3 ranks and a Banner and you got charged, the Halberdiers win the combat by 10. The Swordsmen win by 5. You've possibly lost a Warrior in either unit.

I know that Mathhammer isn't the be-all and end-all of unit selection, but I seriously don't consider the additional survivability to be worth halving your average kill count for.

Here's the advantages of Halberds:

- Better against high armour targets
- Better against high toughness targets
- Better against low toughness targets (assuming the enemy is above T2)
- Kills more models, which means the enemy has less ranks, making them more likely to lose future combats in addition to losing steadfast faster, making the combat last less time
- Cuts through tarpit units much faster
- Same armour as HW/Shield vs Shooting if you give them shields as well

Advantages of HW/Shield setup:

- Better in combat against Lance charges
- Better at surviving against Monsters (but cause less wounds to it)
- 6+ Ward vs War Machines/Armour ignoring Magic

I just see the first list as being better than the second list. As I said though, personal preference.

 

[Khorothis]

Holy crap you're making a lot of sense. :O

Well, there goes my pure-Tzeentch army. No big deal though, I've painted my Knights in red and gold, shouldn't be hard to come up with something less classic for the Warriors. I guess I'll have to stick to my original fluff, where the tribe is worshipping an interesting entity who could be best described as a combination of Khornate bloodrage and Tzeentchian magic and pyromanaic behaviour.

I'm too tired to update this list right now, but I'll come up with something tomorrow and of course check if theres any other advice left.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Mostly the weighting of killy vs survivable is very unfair for WoC- you have expensive models and so most people you face will have very much larger units then you do.... so surviving might be great, but you'll never get through their unit. So winning the fight isnt really the aim, killing enough models to strip them of their steadfast is. This means MoK or banner of rage is an excellent start to a unit... but shield, AHW or halberd each have their own uses (although if you are looking for a bunker for a character then a MoT shield unit of warriors is awesome).

 

[Karnox]

Honestly I dont mind the MoT warriors, maybe give one unit halberds and MoK instead and use the other two to protect your sorcerors. But another thing is, I dont see the point of having two lore of death sorcerers. I mean first off being a sniping lore really you only need one death caster, preferably mobile, but then also I think it would be a very big advantage to you if you had lore of fire, to take out enemies before they get to you, or lore of shadow to debuff really tough enemies and make your shielded warriors more effective in combat, so I dont think two lores of death is good, maybe since you have a direct damage lore (LoT) and Sniping (Death) I would make the other sorcerer shadow.

 

[Sethis]

Unfortunately the only caster we have with access to Lore of Shadow is the Level 4... I've been wrestling with that decision myself, because I really like Shadow's debuffs. However I've found that Chaos Warriors cut through more or less anything even without the debuffs - which means I've stuck with Lore of Tzeentch on my Level 4 and Death on my Level 2.

And another point I just thought of, you don't get the HW/Shield save if you're attacked in the flank... and where do people always try to hit you with their cavalry charge or monsters? Yeah. If they don't hit you in the flank, it means you're winning the maneuvers battle, and should be charging them instead anyway.

 

[Karnox]

Since when were lvl 4 casters the only ones allowed to use lore of shadows? If you have an undivided caster then you can choose death, shadow or fire. Heck I give my chosen book of secrets and give them lore of shadows, and thats like half a level of a wizard.

True, but the debuffs still help, I mean he has nothing there to take out big monsters, so if an ancient stegadon charge straight into those warriors, they are wounding it on a 6+ and it then gets a 4+ save, so they are very much screwed cause thats just gonna thunderstomp them to oblivion.

Yes, but if you have your warshrines on your flanks, or dont be stupid enough to get baited into a flank charge then you wont get flanked. Plus the shields will help by giving you some extra armour agaisnt shooting and even if you get charged in the side you still have a 3+/6++

 

[Drax]

hero choice sorcerer = fire or death or must take the lore belonging to the mark he chooses, lord level sorcerer = death, fire, shadow, heavens or the lore of his mark

though quite way once he gets more powerful that should mean he has the option to switch lores is beyond me (humans, even corrupt ones aren't known for their ability to multi lore)

 

[Sethis]

Since when were lvl 4 casters the only ones allowed to use lore of shadows?

Since Pg 120 of the Army Book specifies Fire or Death only (as Drax pointed out).

True, but the debuffs still help, I mean he has nothing there to take out big monsters, so if an ancient stegadon charge straight into those warriors, they are wounding it on a 6+ and it then gets a 4+ save, so they are very much screwed cause thats just gonna thunderstomp them to oblivion.

Which is why I take Death on my level 2. He's more or less guaranteed one of the 2D6/No save spells, or the Mind War signature might even be better against a high S/T monster like that.

Yes, but if you have your warshrines on your flanks, or dont be stupid enough to get baited into a flank charge then you wont get flanked.

In his list he has no units designed to prevent flanking. Just three units of Warriors - which is why I mentioned it.

 

[Khorothis]

There is much wisdom here and I must admit, I came up with a very unwieldy list, relying far too much on my Sorcerers to clean up everything thats not in the Warriors' forward arc. I see that now and I think I've come up with something. I tried to stick to the casting-heavy theme of the army but added a few tidbits that I've seen yesterday in my LGS to be of incredible use.

Sorcerer Lord; lvl 4, MoT, Disc, Bloodcurling Roar, Talisman of Endurance, Enchanted Shield - 370

Sorcerer; lvl 2, Lore of Death, Infernal Puppet - 155

Sorcerer; lvl 2, Lore of Death, Spell Familiar - 140

12xWarriors; Halberds, Shields, MoK, Musician, Standard Bearer - 252

12xWarriors; Halberds, Shields, MoK, Musician, Standard Bearer - 252

5xMarauder Horsemen; Javelins, Flails, MoS - 90

5xMarauder Horsemen; Javelins, Flails, MoS - 90

Warshrine; MoT - 150

Total: 1499

Originally, the guy I saw used Throwing Axes instead of Javelins, but I think that if I had to choose between +1S vs +6"s I'd pick the latter because it helps keep my Fast Cav from getting killed too fast. MoS is useful because this way they won't get scared, though MoK would have been the best (and fluffiest) choice but I didn't have the points.

Another thing he used with great efficiency was the Tzeentch Lord on a Disc with Bloodcurling Roar: he was trolling his opponent to no end, with hiding behind buildings so he wouldn't be seen except for his chosen victims who would be shouted at in a similar fashion to the Necrolite from DotA - the thought alone warms my heart.

The Tzeentchian Warshrine has always been a favourite of mine, though my faith in it is further solidified by Sethis' stories about what it did in his games. And the model I have in my head looks promising too.

 

[Karnox]

that looks good, the mos on marauders is the only time its good, and no, axes are better, cause all you do is run behind your enemy and throw, especially since nowadays most units cant charge on average 11" so being 12" away wont help from being charged, also fast to shoot rule means you dont get penelties for moving and shooting.

 

[Khorothis]

But... but I don't have the points for axes... I'd have to drop the Flails... ;_;

 

[Drax]

well to put axes on one unit i'd swap the enchanted shield for a dragonhelm - still grants +1, i know the shield is +2, but thats still a 2+ save plus you get a 2+ save against flaming attacks which seems apt to me!

 

[Sethis]

Given that your Marauder Cav is going to go after missile units and war machines, I would consider not even bothering with ranged weapons at all - it is now extremely hard to cause wounds on war machines with conventional weapons. Just charge them instead.

 

[Khorothis]

Given that your Marauder Cav is going to go after missile units and war machines, I would consider not even bothering with ranged weapons at all - it is now extremely hard to cause wounds on war machines with conventional weapons. Just charge them instead.

As long as they can provoke armour saves that can be failed I don't mind spending 2x5 points on them. Plus they're a decent plan B for failed charges.

 

[Sethis]

Can you shoot if you fail a charge? :scratchhead:

 

[Khorothis]

Can you shoot if you fail a charge? :scratchhead:

I can't find the bit in the rulebook that says you can't shoot after a failed charge. I would remember important details like this. Not that I'm omniscient in terms of the rulebook but even one very close reading can work wonders.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Its a bit of a trip to retrieve my rulebook just now but Im certain that you cant shoot after a failed charge- if nothing else the new FAQs still has instances where special shooting attacks are said not to be able to shoot after a failed charge (eg WE's strangleroot).