1500 Ultramarines
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I agree about splitting the termies into 2x 5-man squads. That's how I'd field them.
I don't agree with the flamers unless you know you aren't fighting armour. I would suggest keeping the combi-flamers but taking meltas not flamers. Sternguard are good of course. But then I don't agree with the command squad. They're doing about the same job as the hammernators, but more expensively and without thunderhammers!
The scout squad could work, but I'd focus on making the strike plan work first!
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I used to prefer the idea of two termie units deepstriking to one in a raider, but I've done a U turn on that. Less chance of exploding and the potential to drive off and sit on an objective after dropping your most brutal CC unit right in the face of the enemy is too appealing.
Consider units you might want to charge with your TH/SS termies; maybe knights, wraithknights, riptides- they're just going to zip off in the opposite direction if you deepstrike next to them.
Just out of interest, can assault terminators be given stuff like chainfists? I haven't looked inside a SM codex since third edition so I have no idea. What are their options?
Consider units you might want to charge with your TH/SS termies; maybe knights, wraithknights, riptides- they're just going to zip off in the opposite direction if you deepstrike next to them.
Just out of interest, can assault terminators be given stuff like chainfists? I haven't looked inside a SM codex since third edition so I have no idea. What are their options?
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:laugh: It certainly read that you suggested that Shunter play a 10 man squad last page.
So then you don't agree with all-comers lists? There's tons of anti-armour still in the list, it also has anti-infantry options for close range. What did a Melta Gun ever do to an Ork mob that a Flamer couldn't do better? Remember, Flamers are great for Overwatch as well. I've denied tons of charges just by killing the one model out front as the distance gets rolled.
They come in at 225 points base, so they're exactly the same as a 5 man squad of TH/SS Terminators. They have more wargear options, can take an Apothecary for Feel No Pain, have the option of taking a cheap transport that gets them in T1, can sweeping advance...OK, so they don't have S8 attacks in CC or 2+ natural saves, but if you don't like how they're kitted switch it up. Basically anything will cost less points than what I have suggested, I just went with a similar CC presence to what was there before. There are lots of other options, one I have played and loved (though had to proxy some wargear) was 4x Storm Shields, 3x Meltas, Power Fist, Apothecary. This comes out to 245 with a Drop Pod, which is just less than my initial suggestion and definitely kicked some ass for me.
Scouts work in basically every scenario as objective campers, the only mission they fail miserably in is Purge the Alien in my experience. Considering I only suggested dropping frivolous wargear upgrades I fail to see how I have compromised the 'strike plan' in any way...considering I'm the one who upped it to 7 Drop Pods
I only Deep Strike Deathwing Terminators these days. Less variability plus T1 arrival is key. Occasionally my Grey Knights will deploy the same, but more typically in a Raider. My Imperial Fist Hammernators live in their Redeemer until the moment is right, and I typically play a ML2 Libby with them gunning for Invisibility. One game when I got it that squad was responsible for destroying a third of my enemy's army. Would have never gotten there without the tank.
Can't everything you listed there also take out a Land Raider at range, flat tiring your advance? I ask because I haven't faced such opponents yet. Not that I have changed my mind about the tank use, just curious.
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It's possible a Wraithknight or Knight could get lucky with the right shooting weapons, but they'd have to assault the Land Raider to really have a good chance at crushing it... in which case, if they're blocking off your lone exit point, ouch that's an emergency disembarkation, but if they're not... you just pile out and lay into them. A Riptide wouldn't do that well against a Land Raider unless it was that new super-Haywire experimental rules FW Riptide. And even that Riptide would have to get within 12" to do so...
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Well, an 18" melta-range large blast on the Knight isn't bad, but still has only a 13% chance or so to kill a Land Raider outright (assuming in melta range and no cover save), assuming you're taking that build of a Knight. And 2 S10 shots from a Wraithknight ain't half bad either, if you're taking the D-cannon weapon, whatever it's called, there. Still, they're not reliably going to take out a 4 HP, AV14 vehicle...
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And if your opponent is running the knight with the rapid fire battle cannon he's doing very little to your land raider
In cases where your opponent has good anti armour shooting capable of hurting a land raider, just pop the smoke launchers after your first movement. A 5+ cover save is only slightly worse than the 4+ a knight has, but works in all directions
In cases where your opponent has good anti armour shooting capable of hurting a land raider, just pop the smoke launchers after your first movement. A 5+ cover save is only slightly worse than the 4+ a knight has, but works in all directions
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18" to roll 2D6 for armour penetration is pretty swank. I'm assuming that you can move at least 6" with a Knight and still fire that weapon which would really give it a 24" melta reach in your own turn, but alas it is still one shot that can scatter (I'm assuming since it's a large blast). With the size of a Land Raider and that of a large blast, if you put in centred on the tank and subtracted the BS of 4 from the scatter wouldn't you have to roll higher than 7" to get it full off the tank? More if the scatter takes it off the front or back as it's a rectangular shape. Ultimately it seems like you have done the math for this, it just seems like a mere 13% chance to kill a Land Raider seems pretty low for a weapon like this.
Don't get me wrong, I like Land Raiders and use them for hammernators frequently. I just don't like a lone Land Raider in a Drop Pod list, every time I've put just one big thing on the table like that something's gone terribly wrong. It all comes down to terrain and what you're facing, I guess I just face a lot of stuff that can blow up/glance down AV14 T1 given no other targets (and not enough scenery that can totally hide a tank that size).
I mean, there's also three Drop Pods with Melta Capabilities to jump in close and take on a Knight. The Command Squad could easily be tooled to the same or similar shooting capabilities for less points (as I suggested in another post) if you really felt that there wasn't enough anti-armour without Thunder Hammers involved. If you can't take a Knight out with 4-8 Melta shots are you really gunna take it out in Close Combat with Hammers? **Honest question as I haven't faced a Knight before.
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12"--it's a walker that can move that far every turn and still fire its 2 guns.
The 13% number I crunched a while back is for BS4 regular melta having a 2/3 change to hit, true. Crunching the numbers of a large blast is... fuzzy, at best. But true, you'd have to roll about a 10" or higher scatter for it not to hit. At the risk of dragging us farther afield from the topic, I'll Mathhammer it, if you like.
2-9 (for inches of scatter) have a 30/36 or 5/6 chance to be rolled on 2D6 (that is, to hit), so with the chance to roll a "hit" on the scatter die, let's increase that to, say, ~8/9ths chance to hit. You need a 7+ on 2D6 to pen AV14: a 21/36ths chance to pen, then. From there, you need a 5+ on the Pen chart (before adding the +2 for AP1, since you need a result of 7 on a D6) to explode it: a 1/3 chance. (~8/9 to hit)*(21/36 to pen)*(1/3 to explode)=a ~17.28% chance to outright Explode a vehicle with that melta. And that's assuming no cover save or anything.
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So better than before, but not by much. Since the purpose of this side conversation to the list is whether or not the Raider is viable as a transport though, consider that an Immobilized result pretty much has the same effect on the passengers as an Explodes! one as they are now forced to continue on foot. However,
On topic and point blank: if you were to play this list would you use the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider, TH/SS Terminators as two 5 man squads, or would you play the Command Squad and Sternguard option I presented? Or would you change everything about the list?
On topic and point blank: if you were to play this list would you use the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider, TH/SS Terminators as two 5 man squads, or would you play the Command Squad and Sternguard option I presented? Or would you change everything about the list?
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Exactly! This is why I don't like the Landraider. If you go with only striking units then all their stuff that would like to be shooting at targets chugging across the midfield... is redundant. If you add just one Landraider then all that stuff has one high value target to shoot at. Same issue applies to the scouts. They might matter, but we are working with only 1500 pts here. The command squad is just going to cost more to have the same CC power as hammernators. That's the thing with hammernators, their so darn points efficient. I do like the FNP. But SS/TH is generally huge. Especially at 1500 points where that points efficiency really pays off.
Thinking it through, however... the Command squad can take a drop pod... I wouldn't write them off. It more feels to me like the single Landraider is the problem.
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