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Discussion Starter #1
EC-140
AAC

Crusaders-237
9 initiates, 1 neophyte, 1 meltagun, power fist, rhino, EA, smoke

Crusaders-237
9 initiates, 1 neophyte, 1 meltagun, power fist, rhino, EA, smoke

Crusaders-227
9 initiates, 1 meltagun, power fist, rhino, EA, smoke (Champ goes here)

Dread-165
Venerable, ML, TL-las, Tank hunter

Assault termies-215
5 man, LC, Furious charge

Crusader-278
Smoke, EA, dozer blade

1499 points

The basic idea here is that most people will go 'Oh, shit! A land raider!' and proceed to shoot everything at it, allowing my rhinos to advance unmolested with the dread providing fire support. I know a lot of you will say that 1 raider will be shot up, but in this case, that's fine (I think), as my crusader squads are no slouches in CC either.

Is this viable/competitive? I have a raider that I havent used before and I thought it would be good to try it out and see what happens.

Will this list work? what changes would you make?
 

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Discussion Starter #2
So is the list good as is?
 

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I am personally a fan of razorbacks over rhinos for the fire-support they bring. I feel that once rhinos drop their cargo they are not really a threat, can be annoying, but not rly a threat. Razorbacks however can lend some close-in firesupport to the squads when they get out.

Your list pretty solid, i would just suggest trying razorbacks over rhinos.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I also like razorbacks for the added firepower, but then my crusader squads will be so small that they wont have much punch in CC, and they firepower increases their threat level so people will probably be focusing more on them.

aside from that, the list is good?
 

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I like the list, and have used it. If they do happen to pop the LRC the terminators are as good as dead. It is really a crap shoot list. U will crush them, or they will crush u. Not a whole lot of in between with this one. Personally I stopped playing the list because people started sooting at anything but the LRC, and 5+ invuln aint all its cracked up to be so the termi squad aint that great vs heavy weapons.

For the sake of argument I would put a hammer in the squad. The squads are good to go, might want to take a lazback with plaz laz 6 man squad, to hold a back objective, and use the extra points to work in a dirty cheap marshal (or the even cheaper one that I don't remember) to get some extra power weapon attacks. Mot a fan of extra armor, and the crusader comes with it. Also Dozer blades are not worth it. All of this is just for the sake of argument as most of it is personal preference. (I don't like razorbacks and would not use them)
 

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yeah, it may be good to possibly add a vindi to help take some heat off the LR, but 14 armor will probably be good to get you across the board, just a thought.
 

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Aumm I'll show you a list I made tomorrow. But for your current list:
I've been reading the BT codex (yea I know I've been bored :p), I think the LD and Terminators are to fill the 500 points between 1500 and 2000.
It's fine if you keep them, but you need to get something that would threaten the enemy faster, first turn you gonna move 12" with everything and pop smoke, next turn you'll move another 12" and if the enemy would be smart they'll stay back and shoot at you and pop out transports to even make you slower.
Point is, get something that would either deep strike, out flank or would just make the enemy completely shift their attention to, they'll just shoot the Land Raider and leave your Termis in the killzone and if they are lucky, along the other BTs that got their transports popped :)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I agree, some alpha strike potential would help my list, but what should I bring to fulfill that role? make the dread into a drop pod dread with MM or something along those lines? any other ideas? deep strike assualt squad (for the lulz).

Should I drop a crusader squad for some armored support (predators)?
 

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Instead of the Terminators and LR you can get some LSs and Assault Marines and a Drop Pod for your Dreadnought, this would make everything better IMO, the enemy would be busy Fighting the current threat, not the incoming army, turn one you get the Ven Dread with MM and a CC arm, or just make it more suicidal win MM and TL Lascannon and Tank Hunters, if you'll get 3+ on both to hit and a 3+ or 4+ on the damage chart you'll destroy the two main threats the enemy has like the two annoying LRBTs etc.

He gets killed or locked in combat? Next turn you deep strike Assault Marines behind cover and deep strike with the LSs with MM and Assault Cannon (if you get 3 get 3 MMs and 3 HF) Cannon), use them to pop the remaining transports or vehicles and then by turn 3 your rhinos would be there and the enemy would be crushed :D
 

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It's A solid list in that there are no silly mistakes, however you don't provide enough mech saturation for it to be really effective. You have 3 light vehicles rushing your opponent, any good 1500 list will have enough tools to deal with that many transports, once those are dropped, you have a lot of walking marines, not a huge threat.

Land raiders are great and with that one turn of melt invulnerability I think our raider rush is as good as it gets, however you terminators are liable to hit the enemy lines kill one squad and then absorb the whole armies return fire which should kill it. because your other marines will be out of their transports stuck behind you, you can't do enough assault all at the same time to prevent the retaliation. Your only other option would be slowing down to keep pace with the foot marines which means you will probably have to burn that turn of melta invulnerability earlier then you like against speeders, pirhannas and other suicide units, making you more vulnerable to squads in transports with melta.

In short because your army does not provide enough transport saturation it is liable to either being split up, or drastically slowed down.

The basic idea here is that most people will go 'Oh, shit! A land raider!' and proceed to shoot everything at it, allowing my rhinos to advance unmolested with the dread providing fire support. I know a lot of you will say that 1 raider will be shot up, but in this case, that's fine (I think), as my crusader squads are no slouches in CC either.
Relying on your opponent to screw up and make a very obvious bad move is plain bad strategy. They should just shoot everything at the rhinos as outlined above.




Instead of the Terminators and LR you can get some LSs and Assault Marines and a Drop Pod for your Dreadnought, this would make everything better IMO, the enemy would be busy Fighting the current threat, not the incoming army, turn one you get the Ven Dread with MM and a CC arm, or just make it more suicidal win MM and TL Lascannon and Tank Hunters, if you'll get 3+ on both to hit and a 3+ or 4+ on the damage chart you'll destroy the two main threats the enemy has like the two annoying LRBTs etc.

He gets killed or locked in combat? Next turn you deep strike Assault Marines behind cover and deep strike with the LSs with MM and Assault Cannon (if you get 3 get 3 MMs and 3 HF) Cannon), use them to pop the remaining transports or vehicles and then by turn 3 your rhinos would be there and the enemy would be crushed :D
No, not a good idea, you're forgetting something, black templar pods don't come in turn 1, which means according to your plan the only thing on the board turn 1 is those rhinos. So turn 1 they get shot to hell because they have to eat all the anti tank 1500 points can muster. If your opponent gets frst turn then they are definitely all dead or immobilized before the rest of your force gets in, if they get second then it's less likely but you will loose some of the transports, even with all glancing hits that much firepower concentrated on 3 vehicles will drop a few.

Even if your transports do make it to turn 2, and your stuff starts coming then you can kill at most two enemy tanks and are more likely to just stun them, especially since the AC/MM land speeder build is pointless as it can only fire one on the deepstrike and should be dead after that. In an ideal situation you still don't reduce incoming fire much and most people would be more then happy to sacrifice a min/maxed dual melta to squad in order to kill your venerable dread and draw your assault marines into the open. The only way you can possibly succeed using this tactic is if you get first turn everything comes in and your opponent has no good antitank. If your opponent has first turn you are pretty much dead as they get two full turn of shooting at 3 rhinos to drop them and then the rest of the game to deal with your force.

If you want to use an army that holds up your opponent so the other half of the force can get their and be the hammer then the part that holds up your opponents army needs to be really cheap and cost effective not half your army. At this point your essentially dividing your army into two convenient halves for your foes to deal with. You either need the holdup force to come in first turn or be much more efficient.
 

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I do not want to tell you what to play cos I think everyone needs to try things by himself and not be forced into playing somebody else's list.
However, if you change your squads from 9+1 to 5 initiates +5 neophytes, you should be able to add a Land Speeder which would increase your antitank power
 
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