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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys, i'm going to begin a long-term campaign with my friends.

We decided to get the list building this limitations:
-no allied formation
-same list every game, but you can change/add/remove 2 units before every battle, and you can swap HQ freely.
-You can choose between 3 Hq's, with fixed equip and with fixed warlords traits.(paying its points, of course)

So, since this saturday i'm playing my first game, i'm asking your help to decide the best set-up for my list.
I'm going to play Crimson Slaughter (to vary from the usual CSM rules).
Opponents are (with numbers of players and consequently chanches to be faced): Orks (2/7), Ultramarines (2/7), Imperial Guard (1/7), Dark Eldar (1/7), and then me, with CSM :)

Since there quite different opponents (meqs, orks, squishy eldar and guards) I must try to go for a well rounded and easily adjustable list.

I have written 2 list so far, for which i am asking your help and c&c.
Again, bear in mind that i will only be able to swap 1 Hq and other 2 units before every game (prior to know enemy list, but knowing the opponent)

LIST 1

Malikai the Sorceror
Terminator Armour
2nd level
Balestar of Mannon
-Black Crusader Trait-
(140)

4 Terminators
L.Claw
3 combiplasma
(146)

10 Marines
2 flamers
ccw+ pistol
rhino
(185)

10 Marines
2 Meltaguns
bolters
Rhino
(195)

10 Marines
Khorne
Power Fist
Boon of mutation
Icon of Wrath
(215)

Land Raider
dirge caster
dozer blade
(240)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

6 Havocs
2 missiles
2 autocannon
(138)

=1500=

-Sorc + termin will deepstrike if useful or stroll behind the armor wall. 3 resilient troops with mixed roles. Landraider is here due to the geneal lack of str 9-10 weapons of my meta. just a couple of meltaguns, some meltabombs and ork powerclaws. only DE would be a problem with the cursed dark lance spam.

LIST 2

Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Slaughter horns
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
1 Power Fist
1 Reaper autocannon
(207)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

10 Marines
2 Flamers
Power maul
ccw+pistol
Rhino + dozer blade
(205)

15 Cultists
2 autoguns
(72)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

Predator
Lascannon sponsons
(115)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

6 Havocs
2 missiles
2 autocannon
(138)

=1500=

-This list has the hq and terminators in outflank while the rest of the army shoots the hell out of the opponent, 4 troops for easy score and quad gun for flier management (orks bring a couple of dakkajets sometimes..., also the Princeps of Deceit Trait allows for some tweaks once deployed.

So, which one is better to begin with and how would you modify the chosen list from battle to battle?

I need your advice, fellow chaos worshippers!
 

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First list I would personally scrap the Land Raider and replace it with a pair of Preds or Maulers or Vindis or maybe 2/3 of them. Trouble being that you need to then lose the oblits or the havocs as well and pour the points somewhere else like getting the extra combi plasma in the termis or mark up some of the CSMs with marks of nurgle or something for more resilience.
If sticking with the havocs though I would tool them up for 1 job, not a mixed batch. So either LasCannons / Missle Launchers or something to take out armour, or Autocannons / Heavy Bolters for troop killing, and can just swap them as one of your swaps to suit the opponent you are going against.
Remember you have the oblits for that as well currently or if you go for my segested switch then you have maulers to run up to whatever you want and tear them apart or preds/vindi for killing high AV.

Big prob I can see is things like going against termis, mega armour, artificer. I know not much of that is going to be around but you only have a few shooty things and 1 powerfist that can actually stop them getting saves. Likely chance being the ultramarine and ork leaders are gunna get stuck in with you and you wont be able to kill him.
 

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Personally Nef, I'd probably go for list 2.
LIST 2

Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Slaughter horns
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

I just picked up the CS supp today, I feel you'll need the Blade of Relentless, for that AP2 goodness from 3 kills, keep the LC as the BotR isnt specialist so you'll get the +1 attack

5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
1 Power Fist
1 Reaper autocannon
(207)

Not a fan of termis, I feel for what they are, they get targeted too much, therefore the 2+ save is wasted when you have to take 20 2+ saves.

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

yew.

10 Marines
2 Flamers
Power maul
ccw+pistol
Rhino + dozer blade
(205)

yew. Although if you can, I'd take a power sword, +2 str is good n all but AP4 is rubbish.

15 Cultists
2 autoguns
(72)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

Cultists behind the line or Havocs? If you get the havocs behind it I'd scrap the cultists, you got your troops sorted, just wasted 72 points.

Predator
Lascannon sponsons
(115)

Splurge n get the T link turret, its 25 points for guaranteed (nearly) hit.

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Goooooood. Goooooood.

6 Havocs
2 missiles
2 autocannon
(138)

I take 4 A/Cs with mine, they take out anything that's a Dreadnought or weaker.

=1500=

-This list has the hq and terminators in outflank while the rest of the army shoots the hell out of the opponent, 4 troops for easy score and quad gun for flier management (orks bring a couple of dakkajets sometimes..., also the Princeps of Deceit Trait allows for some tweaks once deployed.
Solid list Nef, but if I was you, I'd scrap the cultists and the Termis and put in some Bikers with MoS and an Icon of Excess to accompany your Steed Lord. A Lord with a 2+, 4++ and 5+ FnP, I'm getting excited just thinking about it! With the BotR He'll be a beast! The left over points could be spent on marks for your CSM squad MoK maybe for cc speciality, or MoS to keep with your "theme".... or just be a dick n take a Helldrake!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the input, boyz :)

First list I would personally scrap the Land Raider and replace it with a pair of Preds or Maulers or Vindis or maybe 2/3 of them. Trouble being that you need to then lose the oblits or the havocs as well and pour the points somewhere else like getting the extra combi plasma in the termis or mark up some of the CSMs with marks of nurgle or something for more resilience.
If sticking with the havocs though I would tool them up for 1 job, not a mixed batch. So either LasCannons / Missle Launchers or something to take out armour, or Autocannons / Heavy Bolters for troop killing, and can just swap them as one of your swaps to suit the opponent you are going against.
Remember you have the oblits for that as well currently or if you go for my segested switch then you have maulers to run up to whatever you want and tear them apart or preds/vindi for killing high AV.

Big prob I can see is things like going against termis, mega armour, artificer. I know not much of that is going to be around but you only have a few shooty things and 1 powerfist that can actually stop them getting saves. Likely chance being the ultramarine and ork leaders are gunna get stuck in with you and you wont be able to kill him.
So i could lose the landy (240), add a stock rhino (35) for the Khorne marines, add a fulllaser predator (140) and with 75 pts more...add a powerfist to both marines squads and upgrading that claw into a fist for terminators (55).
Then i could upgrade havocs to 2 missiles + 2 lascannons. With the balestar to TL them, they should be evil enough in stopping tough units.
What do you think? Oh, i don't own any maulerfiend...so, no big nasty pokemons for me :p

Then, about list 2, @whittsy :

Initially i was going to give him the BotR, but managing 3 kills to make that weapon work is not very easy. I'd rather go for 3+ models to quash...but i'll think about it. Also, how comes that with claw and botr, he still gets the +1 attack??

Terminators: they are supposed to be the lord's retinue to outflank. How would you replace them? i was tempted to take a small squad of possessed... 6 Slaanesh possessed, Icon of excess (209) scoring, fast, hard hitting, not 2+ but possibly 3++, otherwise bikers, you say...5 bikers, 2 plasmaguns, combiplasma, slaanesh, icon of excess (195) problem is that bikers do not really need to be outflanked. I was using the lord as a delivery sistem to claim linebreaker and to wipe an objective or backfield units with something nasty enough to scare the opponent...so, maybe...what about 6 chosen, draznicht, 5 plasmaguns, boon of mutation (203) for a suicidal squad of doom, or something more useful with 8 noise marines, icon of excess, doom siren, ccw+pistol (191)

The powermaul is there against orks. Marines will just die, sword or not, but an ork nob with claw is scary as hell to me. Also, never forget that only 2 out of 6 opponents have a 3+ as standard ! Instagibbing Archons and Company commanders? hell yeah!

Behind the line there are cultists, i try to deploy havocs high ground or in cover anyway. But, yes, i could lose them. 72 points used as follows: 25 to the TL laser on the pred, 13 for another body on the havocs and 10 to upgrade 2 AC to missile launchers, and 28 to add a body or something on the lord's retinue.

Mixed havocs could be dropped to 4 AC and just be swapped to 4 Missile launchers if needed be...against orks i'd go missiles for blasts, against marines, i'd go missiles for krak...against guard and DE i'd go autocannon.

And no heldrake, i hate that model! :)

So, what do you say?
 

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Thanks for the input, boyz :)



So i could lose the landy (240), add a stock rhino (35) for the Khorne marines, add a fulllaser predator (140) and with 75 pts more...add a powerfist to both marines squads and upgrading that claw into a fist for terminators (55).
Then i could upgrade havocs to 2 missiles + 2 lascannons. With the balestar to TL them, they should be evil enough in stopping tough units.
What do you think? Oh, i don't own any maulerfiend...so, no big nasty pokemons for me :p
Personally as I said I would stick to either full squad with Lascannons OR Missile Launchers OR Autocannons OR Heavy Bolters, rather than 2/2s You don't really want to rock up to try to kill an AV14 target and find only 50% of the weapons can do anything. Equally you don't want to try to mow down a squad and have only 2/3s of the shots you want. Autocannons can of course be used for both due to good S and AP for the things you are going against. Nice for shooting down Ork trucks and stuff.


Then, about list 2, @whittsy :

Initially i was going to give him the BotR, but managing 3 kills to make that weapon work is not very easy. I'd rather go for 3+ models to quash...but i'll think about it. Also, how comes that with claw and botr, he still gets the +1 attack??
You wouldn't :( however if you had a CC weapon / pistol / poweraxe (giving you the +1S and AP2 before making the kills if you needed it, though penalty of striking last and not getting your bonus daemon weapon attacks) / Powermaul (for that +2STR Concussive, with the same no d6 attacks from the weapon), Combined with the BotR as it isn't a specialist weapon (like the ones I listed above) gives the +1 Attack. However a lightning claw being a specialist weapon needs to be paired with something like another lightning claw or powerfist for the +1 attack.
 

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Thanks for the input, boyz :)



So i could lose the landy (240), add a stock rhino (35) for the Khorne marines, add a fulllaser predator (140) and with 75 pts more...add a powerfist to both marines squads and upgrading that claw into a fist for terminators (55).
Then i could upgrade havocs to 2 missiles + 2 lascannons. With the balestar to TL them, they should be evil enough in stopping tough units.
What do you think? Oh, i don't own any maulerfiend...so, no big nasty pokemons for me :p
Personally as I said I would stick to either full squad with Lascannons OR Missile Launchers OR Autocannons OR Heavy Bolters, rather than 2/2s You don't really want to rock up to try to kill an AV14 target and find only 50% of the weapons can do anything. Equally you don't want to try to mow down a squad and have only 2/3s of the shots you want. Autocannons can of course be used for both due to good S and AP for the things you are going against. Nice for shooting down Ork trucks and stuff.


Then, about list 2, @whittsy :

Initially i was going to give him the BotR, but managing 3 kills to make that weapon work is not very easy. I'd rather go for 3+ models to quash...but i'll think about it. Also, how comes that with claw and botr, he still gets the +1 attack??
You wouldn't :( however if you had a CC weapon / pistol / poweraxe (giving you the +1S and AP2 before making the kills if you needed it, though penalty of striking last and not getting your bonus daemon weapon attacks) / Powermaul (for that +2STR Concussive, with the same no d6 attacks from the weapon), Combined with the BotR as it isn't a specialist weapon (like the ones I listed above) gives the +1 Attack. However a lightning claw being a specialist weapon needs to be paired with something like another lightning claw or powerfist for the +1 attack.

---------------------

The other question I have though is based on this

-same list every game, but you can change/add/remove 2 units before every battle, and you can swap HQ freely.
-You can choose between 3 Hq's, with fixed equip and with fixed warlords traits.(paying its points, of course)
I assume you still need to be the same points value or at least under a cap of X
So you really with your HQs need to outfit them all to be roughly the same points otherwise you are changing up 1-2 units to just make way for the extra pts or spending on the new HQ the extra points you have spare on units.
So you would also need to play out these HQs to fit with the army.
Also with the "there is only 1 of this item" thing, will the alternate HQ choices still have access to it as Billabod the Lord of Nurgle tells Kramgor the Lord of Khorne (good old made up names) that he can borrow his Slaughter Horn and Blade of the Relentless because he doesn't need it for this fight. OR is it assumed that Billabod is off doing his own fight with other people (keeping his stuff) while Kramgor has taken command of the part of the army you are controlling.
So the question is have you made your alternate HQ layouts or will you be trying to do them on the fly, as you might end up with difficulties from as said having to start stripping down units to afford the new shiney you want.
 

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@neferhet, about that extra attack... Don't know what I was thinking. I thought claws weren't specialist weapons :ireful2: maybe give him 2 LCs and some melta bombs.

As for your terminators, I can understand your method. I've never been able to use them in that way so I can only judge them on LR delivery or DS. Go with what feels right mate :).

Good move for the cultist replacement, as for the havocs having highground... just put your ADL on a hill, or, around a ruined building with the quad gun exposed and have the rest of your havocs 2" apart spanning up levels with your champ downstairs in the gun!
 

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Ok Long post.

STarting with the original lists. Will look at your newer one here in a short bit.

Hi guys, i'm going to begin a long-term campaign with my friends.

We decided to get the list building this limitations:
-no allied formation
-same list every game, but you can change/add/remove 2 units before every battle, and you can swap HQ freely.
-You can choose between 3 Hq's, with fixed equip and with fixed warlords traits.(paying its points, of course)

Ok, I know this point has already been made, but you should make sure the HQ's are the same points cost, or build 3 lists one with each leading them, Also on the warlord traits can you clarify where you are getting them from? As you are using Crimson Slaughter but refrencing CSM traits.

LIST 1

Malikai the Sorceror
Terminator Armour
2nd level
Balestar of Mannon
-Black Crusader Trait-
(140)

Nice HQ. Very good ANT-MEQ, so 2 of the 7 opponents, You do kinda need one specialized in Hord Fighting (Nurgle Sorcer with lots of Nova), and then a CC monster for the DE army.


4 Terminators
L.Claw
3 combiplasma
(146)

Good, I would maybe look at a auto-cannon as well! A bit more firepower (or a heavy flamer!)

10 Marines
2 flamers
ccw+ pistol
rhino
(185)

10 Marines
2 Meltaguns
bolters
Rhino
(195)

I would add a havoc to the Rhino, only doesnt help against the Space marines, but against Orks and DE it can take out the transports. and IG blast templates are just good. Or if you are planning on running them up the table, Combi-Bolters x2, a few more shots at short range even snap-shots land some hits and glances.

10 Marines
Khorne
Power Fist
Boon of mutation
Icon of Wrath
(215)

Land Raider
dirge caster
dozer blade
(240)

Expensive for what you want them todo, I would drop the Boon, and the Dozer. Otherwise a nice small death-star which proving the opponents are not expeting the AV 14 box, will make a good unit. But its something that you may want to retire from your list after a few games as it is easy to counter when expected.

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Nice, I have started to have an appreacation for Oblits, my only thought would be to run them in smaller squads.

6 Havocs
2 missiles
2 autocannon
(138)

If you can you should look to lascannons, just like your oponents if somone brings AV 14 to the party, it could get rough.


LIST 2

Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Slaughter horns
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

Not sure what the trait is, what book is it from. Otherwise looks fun, it will give some pepole a scare!

5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
1 Power Fist
1 Reaper autocannon
(207)

Nice, almost as I advised above!

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

10 Marines
2 Flamers
Power maul
ccw+pistol
Rhino + dozer blade
(205)

I would drop the Dozer from the Rhino and add a combi-flamer

15 Cultists
2 autoguns
(72)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

a great small unit, needs some addtional support to make sure it doesnt get blown away, but should be fun.

Predator
Lascannon sponsons
(115)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

6 Havocs
2 missiles
2 autocannon
(138)

The HS of this list packs alot more Lascannons that the first list, should do alot better, but I would look at going 4 Missiles with the havocs to be safe.

=1500=
I like List two better, but the first list is a more soild base for building changes thoughout the campain.

Starting over I would built a ~750-1000pt list of the 3 core troops.
-Cultists on Quad gun
- Two marine Squads. (one Melta, one Plasma)
a Noise Marine squad (to be scoring with the right HQ, otherwise just an anti-cover unit)

and a good heavy support unit. (I think the oblits)

This becomes the core of the army. you then can cycle in units built for destorying the amy you are playing, Khorne marines with VOLW for takeing out the smerfs, Helbrutes with auto-cannons for the DE (your going to be AV 12 anyway, may as well take something that gets mad about it).

If that makes sense?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Guys youre are my preferred heretics!
So, let's round this shit up :biggrin:
1) Warlords and equipment and traits: I already have decided my Hq, but not in a irrevocable way: i've not yet presented the list! they are fixed, so no equip swapping...
the warlord traits are either those fixed on the charachter stats or chosen from CSlaught book or BRB. Princeps of deceit is from the BRB, Dark Crusader is...SHEEEEIT..i rolled on the CSM book table...my bad...so Malikai the Sorcerer will become: MERCILESS SLAUGHTERER= unit and hq have Crusader.
The 3rd Hq i'm not well decided, open to suggestions.
About points of Hq's, since i can swap them freely, I wanted to have 3 different price tags, to get some points when needed be.
Lots of good advices up here...I agree on lots of things:
-I should have 3 Hq with lists built around them
-I should have a 1000 pts basic with 500 pts of "swap"
-Havocs, to be competitive need to stay focused. Sigh. I love the mixmatched look of a mixed weapon unit :(

So let's build a basic 1000 pts list with The Master of the Hunt as an Hq. Solid core, some heavy support and linebreaker with lord and retinue.

The Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Slaughter horns
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

10 Marines
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
ccw+pistol
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

-963-

I still need another troop ( my friends have a taste in killing my troops, since i tend to play very bold with them), more fire support and the retinue.
Also, i know for shure (the advantage of knowing your friends model collections...) that the worst armor i will be facing are AV12-13 with a small, small, small chance of a Smurf Land Raider steaming on the board.

So this continues with:

Linebreaker Retinue:

5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
powerfist
Reaper autocannon
(207)

Fire Support:
7 Havocs
4 autocannons
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(188)

Predator
Full Laser
combibolter
(145)

Summing up to 1500.

this could be a nice all comers setup.
Nasty cc unit for DE and IG to worry about
Some plasma and blastmaster for MEQ
Laser predator to counter 2+ and AV
havocs & aegis to swat any light infantry or vehicle or MC
oblits and flamer marines to round up, supporting against hordes or small specialized units (hell, 4 flamer templates and 7 bolt pistols should hurt even terminators!)

What do you say? Did i forget something?
Later i'll be posting something about another variation, led by Malikai the Sorceror.
Any ideas about the 3rd hq?

EDIT: Just noticed that if i swap HQ Noise Marines will become elite. So no 3 troops for me. In the basic load out i should then swap a Noise squad with this: 5 marines, melta, combimelta,rhino (130) and remove the combibolter from the Predator. Viable?
 

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As someone pointed out. Depending how long the campaign takes and how much the group talks between themselves and watches each others battles, you might find that everyone else works out they can force you to have to table them to win by killing all your troop choices. So at min you need 3-4 IMOO.
Other than that it looks kinda cool, it's just a shame you don't have Maulerfiends really, as I love them. Another option could be the Mayhem Pack Dataslate Helbrutes with Meltas and Powerfists as they can then deepstrike and melt the biggest threat your enemy has on the table. Though if you don't have it already you would need to get the dataslate for £3 and maybe the models.
 

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Ok so its another long post!

Guys youre are my preferred heretics!

The 3rd Hq i'm not well decided, open to suggestions.
About points of Hq's, since i can swap them freely, I wanted to have 3 different price tags, to get some points when needed be.

OK, if you get to pick your warlord trait I suggest the following! Dark Apostle, MoT, Crozius of the Dark Covenant. Shooting for the Maelstrom of Torment trait, makes all your troops fearless and makes the opponents flee from you!:

So let's build a basic 1000 pts list with The Master of the Hunt as an Hq. Solid core, some heavy support and linebreaker with lord and retinue.

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

5 Noise Marines
Blastmaster
(125)

Fold into one squad, drop a few marines for extra points and add in a mob of cultists, they can shadow the noise marines, and hold objectives (if the HQ doesn't trust them!)

10 Marines
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
ccw+pistol
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

Fire!, anyway a nice squad, as this is a core unit I would keep the bolters so you have a bit more flexibility.

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

Looks Good, I would add a unit to use the quad gun, so perhaps 5 marines with MOK and Bolters. (Couter attack is quite fun)

-963-

Also, i know for shure (the advantage of knowing your friends model collections...) that the worst armor i will be facing are AV12-13 with a small, small, small chance of a Smurf Land Raider steaming on the board.

Ok given that I take back my comments about needed more Lascannons, Autocannon fire should work.

So this continues with:

Linebreaker Retinue:

5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
powerfist
Reaper autocannon
(207)

on reflection in a 1500pt game these guys are expensive. A 3 man squad with Combi-plasma could do the job for cheeper? maybe

Fire Support:
7 Havocs
4 autocannons
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(188)

Predator
Full Laser
combibolter
(145)

I wouldn't worry about the combibolter (though a combi-flamer could be fun in the right situation),

Summing up to 1500.

EDIT: Just noticed that if i swap HQ Noise Marines will become elite. So no 3 troops for me. In the basic load out i should then swap a Noise squad with this: 5 marines, melta, combimelta,rhino (130) and remove the combibolter from the Predator. Viable?
I like the idea of a second 5 man marine squad, but I think you may be better served by a stronger 10 man squad of noise marines or just CSM, could work. But Blastmasters are kick-ass.

I look forward to seeing your other lists.
 

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Warsmith
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As someone pointed out. Depending how long the campaign takes and how much the group talks between themselves and watches each others battles, you might find that everyone else works out they can force you to have to table them to win by killing all your troop choices. So at min you need 3-4 IMOO.
Other than that it looks kinda cool, it's just a shame you don't have Maulerfiends really, as I love them. Another option could be the Mayhem Pack Dataslate Helbrutes with Meltas and Powerfists as they can then deepstrike and melt the biggest threat your enemy has on the table. Though if you don't have it already you would need to get the dataslate for £3 and maybe the models.
Iam just not sold on the Mayhem pack, its 300+ points invested in reserves. Sure its a cool thing to see them all appear on turn 2 and Melt, tanks to mush. But if they don't show up till turn 3, and then rage so they cannot shoot... that's 20% of your army just doing nothing. I would rather give the helbrutes autocannons and hide them at the back of the table and shoot up some light Armour.
 

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Iam just not sold on the Mayhem pack, its 300+ points invested in reserves. Sure its a cool thing to see them all appear on turn 2 and Melt, tanks to mush. But if they don't show up till turn 3, and then rage so they cannot shoot... that's 20% of your army just doing nothing. I would rather give the helbrutes autocannons and hide them at the back of the table and shoot up some light Armour.
Yeah slight prob with them, though TBH I always try to fit in a Comm Relay into any force with more than 200pts of reserves what if he is using deepstriking termys and outflankers then it is kinda needed to make it a 90% chance (almost) to arrive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
A couple of precisations: i roll random traits for warlords, so... :p also, no dataslates or any other add on, just a codex, plain and simple (Crimson sl. are a codex so...)

Ok so its another long post!

LOTS OF USEFUL STUFF

I like the idea of a second 5 man marine squad, but I think you may be better served by a stronger 10 man squad of noise marines or just CSM, could work. But Blastmasters are kick-ass.

I look forward to seeing your other lists.
Sooo, food for thoughts here, @Uveron :) i'm trimming again:

The Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Slaughter horns
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

10 Cultists
ccw+pistols
(50)

10 Noise Marines
2 Blastmasters
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(287)

10 Marines "Twisted Firestarters"
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
bolters (agree with you, uveron. more useful like this)
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

---1050--- BASIC LOADOUT---


Linebreaker Retinue: since 3 terminators are not so scary, i'm going to do kamikaze properly, less resilience but tons of pain:
5 chosen
Draznicht
5 plasmaguns
(175)

Fire Support:
6 Havocs
4 autocannons
(128)

Predator
Full Laser
(140)

---TOTAL 1493---

The more i look at the predator, the less i'm, sold on it...wouldn't 5 havocs w/3 lascannons be better?
Or, since i feel with the Master of The Hunt i should focus on supporting him, i'd go for 5 Spawns (150) to apply some pressure, bringing the total to 1503, but that's ok. I'd save the Fulllas Preddy for the ivination Sorceror list, where i would almost solely focus on shooting. Sounds bad?
Also, i will be able to test the list saturday morning, before the real campaign begins :)

EDIT: Forgot to add the second list...

Malikai the Sorceror
Terminator Sorceror
2nd level
Balestar of Mannon
-"He and unit have crusader" warlord trait-
(140)

10 Cultists
ccw+pistols
(50)

10 Noise Marines
2 Blastmasters
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(287)

10 Marines "Twisted Firestarters"
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
bolters (agree with you, uveron. more useful like this)
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

For the basics, using 1005 pts, then

Linebreakers/retinue:
5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
reaper autocannon
(197)

Fire support:
6 Havocs
4 autocannons
(128)

6 havocs
4 lascannons
(168)

---another 493 pts--- for a total of 1498

Altough termins are costly, i couldn't really help but use them as a retinue for Malikai. Also, the extra versatility of deepstriking them could prove useful. No?
 

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A couple of precisations: i roll random traits for warlords, so... :p also, no dataslates or any other add on, just a codex, plain and simple (Crimson sl. are a codex so...)

Ok, random traits make things a bit more problematic. But my thoughts is I would keep the 3rd HQ as I described in my last post and roll on the comand traits. You will get something that adds addtional buffs within that 12' bubble. So Fearless, Hatered and some additional bonus.. anyway.


10 Cultists
ccw+pistols
(50)

Add a Flamer or Heavy Stubber.

10 Noise Marines
2 Blastmasters
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(287)

A much better unit, quite a scary amount of firepower. But if you can find 10 more points, giving the AC a combi-melta or flamer(or even doom siren) normally I would advise against it. But as a core unit you will not get to change much, it will help if you need that little bit more shooting) (or just overwatch template fun)


Linebreaker Retinue: since 3 terminators are not so scary, i'm going to do kamikaze properly, less resilience but tons of pain:
5 chosen
Draznicht
5 plasmaguns
(175)

A much more fun unit, what is the plan to get them into range?


Or, since i feel with the Master of The Hunt i should focus on supporting him, i'd go for 5 Spawns (150) to apply some pressure, bringing the total to 1503, but that's ok. I'd save the Fulllas Preddy for the ivination Sorceror list, where i would almost solely focus on shooting. Sounds bad?

I think you should split the difference, Iam not a huge fan of the tri-las predator. But a single twinliked cannon can do alot of damage sniping at the right targets. (or at least in my experience). But by dropping the sponsons you can aford a spawn or two, you may be find a few other economys to get a few more


Malikai the Sorceror
Terminator Sorceror
2nd level
Balestar of Mannon
-"He and unit have crusader" warlord trait-
(140)

Looks good, what kit is going on the terminator armour?

Linebreakers/retinue:
5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
reaper autocannon
(197)

With Crusader both these units would be ace. I would look at giveing them both Mark of Tzeentch. Makes that invul save that little bit better. (or at least the Terminators).

Fire support:
6 Havocs
4 autocannons
(128)

6 havocs
4 lascannons
(168)

That is quite a few heavy weapons, but with divination magic, its going to be quite a fun

---another 493 pts--- for a total of 1498

Altough termins are costly, i couldn't really help but use them as a retinue for Malikai. Also, the extra versatility of deepstriking them could prove useful. No?
I think the terminators are going to be a good retinue for Malikai, you have alot of uses for them. not to mention just siting them alongside the cultists in a ruine and waiting for an the oppoent to come and get you. I will have a think again when more awake, but I hope this help!
 

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The Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Slaughter horns
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

I'd like to see a second weapon on this guy still, for more killing

10 Cultists
ccw+pistols
(50)


10 Noise Marines
2 Blastmasters
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(287)

10 Marines "Twisted Firestarters"
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
bolters (agree with you, uveron. more useful like this)
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

yeeeeeeeeeeeeew. I like the look of these guys.

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Hot. Sticky. Mess

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

Read above.

---1050--- BASIC LOADOUT---


Linebreaker Retinue: since 3 terminators are not so scary, i'm going to do kamikaze properly, less resilience but tons of pain:
5 chosen
Draznicht
5 plasmaguns
(175)

Fire Support:
6 Havocs
4 autocannons
(128)

Predator
Full Laser
(140)

I like these options too. Good choices!

---TOTAL 1493---

The more i look at the predator, the less i'm, sold on it...wouldn't 5 havocs w/3 lascannons be better?
Or, since i feel with the Master of The Hunt i should focus on supporting him, i'd go for 5 Spawns (150) to apply some pressure, bringing the total to 1503, but that's ok. I'd save the Fulllas Preddy for the ivination Sorceror list, where i would almost solely focus on shooting. Sounds bad?
Also, i will be able to test the list saturday morning, before the real campaign begins

EDIT: Forgot to add the second list...

Malikai the Sorceror
Terminator Sorceror
2nd level
Balestar of Mannon
-"He and unit have crusader" warlord trait-
(140)

Cool name for him. Mine is named Nehemoth! They should get together for poker night....

10 Cultists
ccw+pistols
(50)

10 Noise Marines
2 Blastmasters
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(287)

10 Marines "Twisted Firestarters"
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
bolters (agree with you, uveron. more useful like this)
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

All G here!:good:

For the basics, using 1005 pts, then

Linebreakers/retinue:
5 Terminators
3 combiplasma
reaper autocannon
(197)

Fire support:
6 Havocs
4 autocannons
(128)

6 havocs
4 lascannons
(168)

I like the havocs! Not sold on the Termis but you look like you have a plan for them.

---another 493 pts--- for a total of 1498

Altough termins are costly, i couldn't really help but use them as a retinue for Malikai. Also, the extra versatility of deepstriking them could prove useful. No?
For your third HQ, why not go a Daemon Prince of nurgle with a BBoS? Or are the artefacts from the CSM codex out of the question? If so, take the new sword and a Daemon Heart with the MoS and wings, maybe the horns of relentless too for furious charge and rage, add that with Rending, could be a devastating mix!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
For your third HQ, why not go a Daemon Prince of nurgle with a BBoS? Or are the artefacts from the CSM codex out of the question? If so, take the new sword and a Daemon Heart with the MoS and wings, maybe the horns of relentless too for furious charge and rage, add that with Rending, could be a devastating mix!
only relics from Crimson Slaughter, sadly :) Also, daemon princes cannot take Daemonheart, right? A Slaanesh DP with the horns and power armour... nice..
It looks so costly, though...

The Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Slaughter horns
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

I'd like to see a second weapon on this guy still, for more killing
mmh, yes i think that too, but he will be reaching 200 pts...a thing i wish to avoid. maybe dropping the Horns, replaced by a poweraxe (poor man's fisticlaw...)?

5 chosen
Draznicht
5 plasmaguns
(175)

A much more fun unit, what is the plan to get them into range?
Outflanking with The Master of the Hunt should bring them at least in 24" range from something...

Malikai the Sorceror
Terminator Sorceror
2nd level
Balestar of Mannon
-"He and unit have crusader" warlord trait-
(140)

Cool name for him. Mine is named Nehemoth! They should get together for poker night....
Yes he will gladly accept your invitation. No Telepathy tricks, please!
Also, he will sport a combibolter and power halberd (count as axe)

I think you should split the difference, Iam not a huge fan of the tri-las predator. But a single twinliked cannon can do alot of damage sniping at the right targets. (or at least in my experience). But by dropping the sponsons you can aford a spawn or two, you may be find a few other economys to get a few more
Let's see...since that even for Malikai's list i've dropped the preddy in favor of the much more performant havocs...even for the Hunt Master i can drop it and go supporting him. I take your suggestion on the noise marines and cultists, but for Motz termins...too many points for a unit that will be swamped in small arms fire, i think :(
So i have, in List 1, 140 pts, used as follows: 4 spawns (120), doom siren on Noise champ & Flamer on the cultists (20). This will mark a difference between lists and give some more templates for killing DE and orks. Spawns can be a problem for everyone, if well directed.

About the 3rd Hq, The Dark Apostle with Crozius and meltabombs...mmmh 140 pts, resilient enough and Zealot bubble...but not so scary in cc...The Slaanesh Prince with Horns and Power armour, wings, 235 pts. Another costly hq, strong, fast, resilient...but not so easy to keep alive, due to his MC status. The Apostle i like more, but he would need more than 2 swapped units to keep it working... The DP can work with every list but he risks of getting targeted to death every game...Also, no special abilities, just smashing things...
Due to point issues i think i'm going for the Apostle...

Anyway, Here are the two lists, with final changes: (wall of text incoming)

The Master of the Hunt
Slaanesh Lord
Daemonheart
Steed of Slaanesh
Sigils of Corruption
Power Axe
L.Claw
-Princeps of Deceit Trait-
(185)

10 Cultists
ccw+pistols
Flamer
(55)

10 Noise Marines
2 Blastmasters
1 Doom Siren
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(302)

10 Marines "Twisted Firestarters"
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
bolters (agree with you, uveron. more useful like this)
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

3 Obliterators
Nurgle
(228)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

--- BASIC LOADOUT---

Linebreaker Retinue:
5 chosen "Anal Intruders, Black Troupe"
Draznicht
5 plasmaguns
(175)

Fire Support:
6 Havocs "Squad Futeor, Pink group"
4 autocannons
(128)

Assault Support:
4 Spawns (120) "The Hounds"

---TOTAL 1493---

SECOND LIST

Terminator Sorceror "Malikai the Sorceror"
2nd level
Balestar of Mannon
-"He and unit have crusader" warlord trait-
(140)

10 Cultists "Cult of the Purple Tourniquet"
ccw+pistols
Flamer
(55)

10 Noise Marines "Anal Intruders, Pink Troupe"
2 Blastmasters
1 Doom Siren
Rhino + Havoc launcher
(302)

10 Marines "Twisted Firestarters"
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
bolters
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)

3 Obliterators "Pain-killers"
Nurgle
(228)

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)

For the basics, using 1025 pts, then

Linebreakers/retinue:
5 Terminators "Hand of Chaos"
3 combiplasma
reaper autocannon
(197)

Fire support:
6 Havocs "Squad Futeor, Pink group"
4 autocannons
(128)

6 havocs "Squad Futeor, Black group"
3 lascannons (had to drop one lascannon, otherwise couldn't swap only 2 units, needed a third swap...)
(148)

for a total of 1498


SOme final thoughts? I think we are an inch from to the goal!
 

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Cool name for him. Mine is named Nehemoth! They should get together for poker night....
...saaay, have you read Erikson's Crack'd Pot Trail? (the antagonists that the main cast are chasing are a necromancer and a demon summoner that they call the Nehemoth)

That's a pretty clean looking list, neferhet. Dunno if you need the doom siren on the Noise Marines--I'd rather upgrade the Lord's power axe to a fist, or something (why go poor man's Axeiclaw when that loses you an attack and is only 10 points cheaper?). Still, it can serve as a useful Overwatch deterrent, I suppose. By a similar coin, I dunno if the cultists need a flamer, since any points spent on them feel... unnecessary. I'd rather spend whatever few points left over on purchased CCWs for the firestarters, I think.
 

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...saaay, have you read Erikson's Crack'd Pot Trail? (the antagonists that the main cast are chasing are a necromancer and a demon summoner that they call the Nehemoth)
I can honestly say I have not, although it sounds cool! Nehemoth is the name of the Chaos Sorcerer from the Space Marine game.

Yes he will gladly accept your invitation. No Telepathy tricks, please!
Also, he will sport a combibolter and power halberd (count as axe)
Funny enough, mine will also be bringing his force halberd, but only a bolt pistol. He's not made of money.

As for your lists, I approve.I understand you don't want the Hunt Master being too costly.

only relics from Crimson Slaughter, sadly :) Also, daemon princes cannot take Daemonheart, right? A Slaanesh DP with the horns and power armour... nice..
It looks so costly, though...
"May not be taken by a daemon prince" fuck. All my plans out the window. But isn't it funny how a daemon prince can't have a daemon heart? How do they love without a heart? Slaanesh DP would be the cheapest option though, he'd only be around 200 points and be devastating! You could name him "Improbus Unum" latin for "Heartless One" because he can't have a heart :(
 

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Warsmith
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1,190 Posts
only relics from Crimson Slaughter, sadly :) Also, daemon princes cannot take Daemonheart, right? A Slaanesh DP with the horns and power armour... nice..
It looks so costly, though...
Very Costly, With the CS, I would keep it cheep and simple. In my Book the reasion the DP is so kick ass in the nomal CSM lists is the black mace. Not having it on the list makes it less than great.

About the 3rd Hq, The Dark Apostle with Crozius and meltabombs...mmmh 140 pts, resilient enough and Zealot bubble...but not so scary in cc...The Slaanesh Prince with Horns and Power armour, wings, 235 pts. Another costly hq, strong, fast, resilient...but not so easy to keep alive, due to his MC status. The Apostle i like more, but he would need more than 2 swapped units to keep it working... The DP can work with every list but he risks of getting targeted to death every game...Also, no special abilities, just smashing things...
Due to point issues i think i'm going for the Apostle...
The Apostle is scary in the correct situations. Give him the MOS and let him smash people in challenges, its all about the bodyguard the chosen are a good plan. (Just keep some cultists within his 12" bubble of death)

10 Marines "Twisted Firestarters"
2 Flamers
1 combiflamer champion
bolters (agree with you, uveron. more useful like this)
Rhino + combiflamer
(200)
Not sure if you have the points but MOK, would make them 3 attack units on the first turn of CC (4 on the assault). They become a great unit to hold an objective lots of overwatch shots (In 3D3 flamer hits) and then 31 CC attacks. Should be able to melt most Ork mobs.

Aegis defence line + quad gun
(100)
You may want to check out Obsticals from Stronghold assault (if you are allowed), some 12+6' of razorwire could be fun plan!

--- BASIC LOADOUT---

Linebreaker Retinue:
5 chosen "Anal Intruders, Black Troupe"
Draznicht
5 plasmaguns
(175)
Great unit, I would think about giving Draznicht some type of CC weapon to help out in chalanges!

6 havocs "Squad Futeor, Black group"
3 lascannons (had to drop one lascannon, otherwise couldn't swap only 2 units, needed a third swap...)
(148)
Hmm... Interesting. May be just 2 Oblits in place of the second Havoc squad? I cannot help but think that list 2 is missing something. Not sure why...
 
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