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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok guys so here's my list:


Sorceror
Mark of Tzeentch, Sigil of Corruption
2 Mastert Level's, Spell Familiar

10 Cultists w/ Flamer

10 Cultists w/ Heavy Stubber, 8 Autoguns, Shotgun

5 Thousand Sons

5 Thousand Sons

Forgefiend

Maulerfiend

Heldrake

Deamon allies

Tzerald

10 Pink horrors

3 Flamers

3 Screamers

Burning Chariot

1434 pts

what do you guys think? what's the best use for the last 66 points?
what if the list was 1750 or 1850, what would be the best additions?
 

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Warsmith
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I would look at running a pair of Deamon Engines, make them the same.. and given the rest of the list I would say a pair of Forgefiends may work the best.

I would also consider, 'mobing up' the Cultists into one blob.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I would look at running a pair of Deamon Engines, make them the same.. and given the rest of the list I would say a pair of Forgefiends may work the best.

I would also consider, 'mobing up' the Cultists into one blob.
You might face a pre-assembled bias there, honestly. And it seems like the cultist load-out is a pretty "Dark Vengeance" inspired one... that said, if I had the opportunity, I would still take a purely melee cultist unit of 20 over the 10 and 10 melee-and-ranged on offer in this list, even if that means proxying the 10 autogun cultists from Dark Vengeance as melee-pistol cultists among close friends.

Ahem. Based in a purely hypothetical stance, it might be best to run two of the same Daemon Engine, yes: redundancy means that even if an enemy takes out one of them, the second is still ready and kicking to fulfill its designated roll. That said, the flexibility offered by fielding a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend alike means that you are more capable of responding to varied threats at range and up close, so that has a value and capability to respond of its own... (assuming that your foe doesn't surgically remove whichever is more threatening to their particular interests, which is basically what a competent foe will do, given the opportunity).

So what I mean to say is: if you, moshpiler, have already built these two minis of the same kit in opposite ways, no major foul. If you could still build them the same way, so much the better and so much easier to build a list around. If, in best case, you could (say) magnetize the units so you could field them in either Mauler or Forge predominance, so much the better for your collection and list flexibility!

Myself, I try never to field a Burning Chariot unless I'm also bringing (the somewhat unreliable) Grimoire or (the dispellable/failable) Invisibility, as major defensive buffs. Nor am I too overly impressed by the AP4 Flamers, so I might kill 2 birds with 1 stone and drop the Flamers, take the Grimoire on the Herald, and still have a few points to play around with--say, grabbing another Screamer or two. If you don't want to bring the fragile-as-all-hell Burning Chariot, you can always resort to the durable-as-all-hell Soul Grinder, who for a nominal cost can still fit in with your Tzeentch theme--and be more survivable to boot!

I would also try to grab a Rhino or two for the 1ksons, more for the sheer number of Ob-Sec units I'd be fielding than anything else, but also to boost their mobility.

Giving you MLs, Daemon Engines, Rhinos and more Screamers to think about, I hardly think I have limited myself in terms of how to spend that hypothetical 66 points that are still free (even if you drop the Flamers to fill out the rest of those options), but in terms of potential long-term growth, I think that every single one of those option offers areas for expansion. I might, admittedly, default to Be'Lakor at the 1850 point level, since when he casts Shrouding, it means that nearby Screamers have a 2+ rerollable cover save, thanks to Jink and Daemon of Tzeentch, and he can always Jink for a (ha, "mere") 2+ cover save with his native Shrouded, and Armorbane+Fleshbane at I8 means he can take on/out most things in the game before they can so much as force him to rely on his 4+ invuln... but this is a definite personal bias speaking, so take that as you may.
 

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Warsmith
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You might face a pre-assembled bias there, honestly. And it seems like the cultist load-out is a pretty "Dark Vengeance" inspired one... that said, if I had the opportunity, I would still take a purely melee cultist unit of 20 over the 10 and 10 melee-and-ranged on offer in this list, even if that means proxying the 10 autogun cultists from Dark Vengeance as melee-pistol cultists among close friends.
That is a very good point.

Now I will say I like a 50/50 mix on my cultists, the extra auto-gun shots are very useful when you are forced into a shooting war/over-watch.

But I love my cultists..
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Paying an extra point compared to guardsmen for the same statline, less a whole bunch of heavy weapon and special weapon options, I have to say I resent the difference between the two... but I'm a sucker for Chaos, so recognize that the specific role cultists play (camping on objectives while forgotten--often winning me games for it, honestly) is vital enough and filling the "Lost & Damned" hole in my heart enough that... I have to say, I love my cultists too...
 

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You might face a pre-assembled bias there, honestly. And it seems like the cultist load-out is a pretty "Dark Vengeance" inspired one... that said, if I had the opportunity, I would still take a purely melee cultist unit of 20 over the 10 and 10 melee-and-ranged on offer in this list, even if that means proxying the 10 autogun cultists from Dark Vengeance as melee-pistol cultists among close friends.

Ahem. Based in a purely hypothetical stance, it might be best to run two of the same Daemon Engine, yes: redundancy means that even if an enemy takes out one of them, the second is still ready and kicking to fulfill its designated roll. That said, the flexibility offered by fielding a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend alike means that you are more capable of responding to varied threats at range and up close, so that has a value and capability to respond of its own... (assuming that your foe doesn't surgically remove whichever is more threatening to their particular interests, which is basically what a competent foe will do, given the opportunity).

So what I mean to say is: if you, moshpiler, have already built these two minis of the same kit in opposite ways, no major foul. If you could still build them the same way, so much the better and so much easier to build a list around. If, in best case, you could (say) magnetize the units so you could field them in either Mauler or Forge predominance, so much the better for your collection and list flexibility!

Myself, I try never to field a Burning Chariot unless I'm also bringing (the somewhat unreliable) Grimoire or (the dispellable/failable) Invisibility, as major defensive buffs. Nor am I too overly impressed by the AP4 Flamers, so I might kill 2 birds with 1 stone and drop the Flamers, take the Grimoire on the Herald, and still have a few points to play around with--say, grabbing another Screamer or two. If you don't want to bring the fragile-as-all-hell Burning Chariot, you can always resort to the durable-as-all-hell Soul Grinder, who for a nominal cost can still fit in with your Tzeentch theme--and be more survivable to boot!

I would also try to grab a Rhino or two for the 1ksons, more for the sheer number of Ob-Sec units I'd be fielding than anything else, but also to boost their mobility.

Giving you MLs, Daemon Engines, Rhinos and more Screamers to think about, I hardly think I have limited myself in terms of how to spend that hypothetical 66 points that are still free (even if you drop the Flamers to fill out the rest of those options), but in terms of potential long-term growth, I think that every single one of those option offers areas for expansion. I might, admittedly, default to Be'Lakor at the 1850 point level, since when he casts Shrouding, it means that nearby Screamers have a 2+ rerollable cover save, thanks to Jink and Daemon of Tzeentch, and he can always Jink for a (ha, "mere") 2+ cover save with his native Shrouded, and Armorbane+Fleshbane at I8 means he can take on/out most things in the game before they can so much as force him to rely on his 4+ invuln... but this is a definite personal bias speaking, so take that as you may.
Uveron and mossy said it all.
Also, you might want to drop flamers and chariot and use those extra 66 points to make a big killy unit of screamers...
 

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Warsmith
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Paying an extra point compared to guardsmen for the same statline, less a whole bunch of heavy weapon and special weapon options, I have to say I resent the difference between the two...
But they also fill a troops slot in a power-amoured force, and can be taken only in units of 10. So Yes the guardsman may be 1 point more per-man, But not when you factor in the other costs of HQ's and the like..

And my current favort use for cultists is as a body guard for my Terminator Lord. Its very funny to see the specialist assault troops unable to target him in close-combat as they are not a character... (was especially funny when fighting Wraith Kights)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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But they also fill a troops slot in a power-amoured force, and can be taken only in units of 10. So Yes the guardsman may be 1 point more per-man, But not when you factor in the other costs of HQ's and the like..

And my current favort use for cultists is as a body guard for my Terminator Lord. Its very funny to see the specialist assault troops unable to target him in close-combat as they are not a character... (was especially funny when fighting Wraith Kights)
Very valid points. I included the "so recognize that the specific role cultists play" phrase even before counting the necessary HQ tax that CSM pay (even from my perspective of weakness towards splurging overmuch on HQ to an unwise degree), which is all well and good.

Having ample bodies and a Fearless leader to whittle down a Wraithknight is immensely satisfying, admittedly--but a Wraithknight that managed to tie up 150 points of cultists and 225 points of Lord for several turns just about removes them from the game, honestly, and buys his points back... before accounting for whatever he kills in the turn or 2 before he gets stuck in. Wraithknights are a lot of points because A) they are hard to kill, B) you can't afford to ignore them, and C) they protect the rest of your army through their sheer hard-to-kill-ness while they are being killed.

...Hence my personal weakness for sending a Sorcerer with a retinue to Force Axe a Wraithknight to death, assuming you cast Force then manage to roll a 6 to wound in one of the following 2 Assault phases. If you manage it, you short-circuit their "statistical" assumptions in order to-

But I'm getting side-tracked by my vendetta (not the flyer) against Wraithknights. I wholeheartedly adit that I build my lists, these days, in consideration as to what can kill a Wraithknight, what can kill an Imperial Knight, and what can kill a Riptide. If the list can manage multiple of each of those... the list can handle just about anything in the meta, whether it be Termis with TH/SS or T8/AV13 S10/SD (respectively). Except flyers.

BY WHICH I MEAN TO SAY I'm just plain getting side-tracked. The marginal cost of cultists is certainly worthwhile; however, while I see the value of having a few potshots at 24" range, I personally value the psychological warfare of hiding them out of sight and letting the opponent forget about my 50 point unit camping on an objective more. This admittedly only works against low to mid-tier level players, and a capable player will turbo-boost in with their guardian jetbikes on the last turn...

But the sheer juggling of enough mental items has led more than a few opponents to forget my cultists until it's too late, so I value them for that more than for the handful of S3 shots I get out of them for 10 points more. And if they do have to get stuck in, hey, not paying that point per model means an extra melee attack per cultist that survives at I3 in order to be able to attack at all!
 

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Warsmith
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Having ample bodies and a Fearless leader to whittle down a Wraithknight is immensely satisfying, admittedly--but a Wraithknight that managed to tie up 150 points of cultists and 225 points of Lord for several turns just about removes them from the game, honestly, and buys his points back... before accounting for whatever he kills in the turn or 2 before he gets stuck in. Wraithknights are a lot of points because A) they are hard to kill, B) you can't afford to ignore them, and C) they protect the rest of your army through their sheer hard-to-kill-ness while they are being killed.\
Continuing the side-track... When supported by the 100pt Helbrute I have been very successful in taking out Wraithknights.. In the last month my lord and cultist and Helbrute have dropped 3 of the blighters... (well the last 2 were in an apoc game and it did kill the lord before it was finished off the next turn, but appart from that one they have all gone down in one turn of shooting and combat)... but yes thats more probably my luck than anything else (and the fact Iron Warriors excel in hand to hand with Titans)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Continuing the side-track... When supported by the 100pt Helbrute I have been very successful in taking out Wraithknights.. In the last month my lord and cultist and Helbrute have dropped 3 of the blighters... (well the last 2 were in an apoc game and it did kill the lord before it was finished off the next turn, but appart from that one they have all gone down in one turn of shooting and combat)... but yes thats more probably my luck than anything else (and the fact Iron Warriors excel in hand to hand with Titans)
As far as Titans go, meltabombs will do that. Eventually...

But yeah. I can't honestly say I frown upon the killing of Wraithknights. I mean, not only are you taking out one of the most competitive units from one of the most easily competitive armies in the game, but you're also claiming the soul of some great hero for Slaanesh to devour? Gameplay vindication+fluff triumph, right there.

Warp, I'm not going to blame luck, when I have luck more than anything to thank with my Sorc finishing off 2 Wraightknights and a Wraithlord in a couple of games, who he by no means statistically deserved to finish off. Good on you! Hail Chaos! Etc! And... we can't rely on such luck in games to come, so let's do our best to figure out how to game the system in our advantage, shall we?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hey yeah, replies are in!

Thanks for the feedback guys, very much appreciated. Soooo... ok cultists I could probably take the shot/auto guns off the one unit, let them both just have flamers. I know they'd be more effective in a 20 man unit but they're not there to be effective, just to hold objectives or be meatshields. Ooh I guess 20 would serve better in the meatshield role but if I got 2 objectives that need securing then I don't have to worry about my important guys standing back, frustrated at everyone else having all the fun.

As far as the deamons go, I guess I don't really have to have some of those guys, the main idea was to just fit 1 of every force org, kind of as a building block for a bigger force. That's why 3 flamers and 3 screamers (3 to a box {so, yeah, I basically don't have these yet}). I really like all these guys and want a bit of everything with the deamons + I got some crazy stuff lined up for these guys' paint jobs. I get that the burning chariot is hella fragile but wouldn't he make back his own cost if he fries just one marine unit? And the hilarity of popping a small units transport with his bolt thingy and assaulting the contents with an AP2 blade? That's priceless! Equal consideration towards side stitching antics with the flamers frying an aspect warrior squad so thoroughly they'll need to apply cold water in the infinity circuit.

As far as the Forgefiend/ Maulerfiend issue goes I haven't modeled them yet but what I've got in mind is too good (in my opinion, not to go with. Forgefiend is gonna be converted from a Necroshpinx (fantasy tomb kings) with just swaps from scythy arms to death-spitting Forgefiend gats. The Maulerfiend is going to be a conversion of a Kharibdyss (did I spell that right?)(dark elf range) with molten lava drooling out some of its mouths, representing the magma cutters. And finally the Heldrake will use the Flamespyre Pheonix from the High Elves. So yeah I think I'm gonna agree with Toes on this one. Anyway the ForgeMaul combo is kind of redundant as they're going for roughly the same targets, just different delivery style (but lots of style either way :wink:)

Anyway those are my thoughts currently and hopefully this is going to be a force to be built upon many years in the future!
 
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