Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello,

Well, I thought I would join the club that all the cool kids are part of.

Basically I use about 4 lists that revolve around this one, but this is the list I take to any tourny (not GT yet) or any competitive game.

HQ

Autarch - 130
Jetbike, Laser lance, Mandblasters

Elites

6 Harlequins -162
6 Kisses, Shadowseer

6 Harlequins -162
6 Kisses, Shadowseer

Troops

3 Jetbikes - 76
Shuriken cannon

3 Jetbikes - 76
Shuriken cannon

Fast Attack

Vyper - 70
Scatter laser, shuriken cannon

Vyper - 80
Star cannon, shuriken cannon

Swooping Hawks - 122
Exarch, Intercept

Heavy Support

Falcon - 215
Star cannon, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines

Falcon - 215
Star cannon, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines

Fire Prism - 190
Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines

-1498

So pretty standard, but as for fighting a vast a varied enemy goes, what tips do you Mecha Eldar players have for me? I don't get to play that often, but it could be against virtually any army.

Which army do you expect this army to struggle against the most and why

How should I combat that this, without a vast change of List, so preferably tactics.

Cheers for any advice,

-Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,195 Posts
I just played a similar list against that annoying "godly" nid list (the one with all the shooters... Carnifax and whatnot) Anyway, they completely killed me. The problem I found was that there was always a choice to make on what to shoot or assualt, and NO MATTER WHAT you choose, its the WRONG CHOICE.
I would shoot down one carnifax and then I have 10 guants on me, Dead. I would slaughter 8 guants and the carnifax will destroy anything I had. More than this but you get the idea. The only thing that worked well were the vehicles. My falcons and fireprism didnt suffer anything worth noting, but in the end they were the only things left and at the end of turn 6 I was done...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,648 Posts
The way I see it, you have three hard units that will take some concentrated fire to take down, and several weaker units that are pretty much one-hit-wonders. If you can keep out of assaults that you don't initiate, the list should do well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,195 Posts
sorry about that, I thought i started a new thread, but it ended up as a reply :shok:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thanks for the replies guys.

Yes Nidzilla would be a toughy, but looking at Skuzzys Nid list I feel I would be a really tough battle, but the durability of the tanks would win the day.

The only thing that would scare the crap out of me is the Dakka flyrant, 12 strength 6 hits with re-rolls coming out of its ears. Not what I want to see flying round my DZ, but with the amount of star cannon shot hitting it, would down it in one turn. with the jetbikes, fire prism dispersed shot will destroy entire units in one shot. rinse and repeat.

The Hawks are not really designed for a battle like this, they would drop once, at a safe distance for n'ade pack then play hide n seek. *just realised I forgot the in my list posted, lol.

But yeah, no doubt it would be a tough battle.

Yeah, my list is a bit glass hammer, but I can quite happily play defenisifly and not sell out to the small shot and use the vypers where it really hurts.

-Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
i see where hespithe is coming from...the list is centered around elite or faster units..(if im seeing it right)
i seem to have an attraction for heavy combat hitters..but gunfire might take your harlies down..which is their disadvantage in the open.
as you have said..nids would be a toughy but could be dealt with if you play it right.
gl with the list..i hope eldar wins you some battles as it has for me!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Cheers, the Harlequins will be mounted in the Falcons, until the time is right to unload and bring death to the enemy. usually around turn 3 or turn 2 depending how desperate I get, lol.

-Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
HQ
Autarch - 130
Jetbike, Laser lance, Mandblasters
Fusion Gun is generally more usefull than the Mandiblaster, so if points are the issue, get the Fusion Gun, if you can afford both - then get both.
Elites
6 Harlequins -162
6 Kisses, Shadowseer
6 Harlequins -162
6 Kisses, Shadowseer
Although the units are serioulsy refined and usefull, they are lacking in some ways that smart opponents will exploit. I would advocate for diversity here, switching the second squad to Banshees or Fire Dragons and having extra points to play with.
Troops
3 Jetbikes - 76
Shuriken cannon
3 Jetbikes - 76
Shuriken cannon
These Min/Max units are usefull; but once again, if an opponent can take care of one, then the second will fall shortly there after. I do advocate for some diversity but with other stuff changed, you could get away with both of these.
Fast Attack
Vyper - 70
Scatter laser, shuriken cannon
Vyper - 80
Star cannon, shuriken cannon
My favourite Vyper build is the Scatter Varient, as for your Star varient.... I think you should drop the Shuri-cannon and get a EML instead as the added range will outweigh the extra shot (which the Scatter does better anyway for almost everything). Seriously, Starcannon is not a great option unless you know your facing Nid-zilla.
Swooping Hawks - 122
Exarch, Intercept
Too light, add another figure at least and get the Exarch a better weapon.
Heavy Support
Falcon - 215
Star cannon, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines
Falcon - 215
Star cannon, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines
Again with the Starcannons,,,, everything else is decent; but did you know that you could get Star Engiens for these for less cost overall if you dropped the Starcannons for Scatterlasers or Shuri-cannons. Oh and there is no need to upgrade the catipults as smart opponents will not be letting them shoot that often.
Fire Prism - 190
Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines
No shuri-cannon, get Star Engines though to allow for turn 1 Tank Shock that will put your rear door facing the enemies table edge, then rip right through his army from there on out. If you going to the expense of 3 Super Grav Tanks, then go all the way and exploit the hell out of them.


So pretty standard, but as for fighting a vast a varied enemy goes, what tips do you Mecha Eldar players have for me? I don't get to play that often, but it could be against virtually any army.

Which army do you expect this army to struggle against the most and why

How should I combat that this, without a vast change of List, so preferably tactics.

Cheers for any advice,

-Rob[/QUOTE]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Autarch - 130
Jetbike, Laser lance, Mandblasters
Fusion Gun is generally more usefull than the Mandiblaster, so if points are the issue, get the Fusion Gun, if you can afford both - then get both.
I would love both I really would, but I made a choice on the basis that the Autarch would be assaulting infantry....... and as I write this, its hit me, the Fusion gun will used within charge range, will be hitting better than in combat and hurting most things on a lower or at least equal die roll than the laser lance... hmm thanks!! The only concern I have is that opponent taking a model off when he's only just in assault range, leaving me high n dry...

6 Harlequins -162
6 Kisses, Shadowseer
6 Harlequins -162
6 Kisses, Shadowseer
Although the units are serioulsy refined and usefull, they are lacking in some ways that smart opponents will exploit. I would advocate for diversity here, switching the second squad to Banshees or Fire Dragons and having extra points to play with.
Hmm, I would agree to some degree, but, they are so cool and if I can play them right and split the enemy, there will be know escape from them. They are also better than Banshees in combat, but I cannot replace the Fire Dragons, this was a close call in the list and an option I often take, but, they tend to die once they disembark, usually getting there points back by either rending a unit useless or destroying a tank. But I think they are keepers for now, I am playing a mates tourny Tau army over the next couple of days and I will report back with my success or failure.

3 Jetbikes - 76
Shuriken cannon
3 Jetbikes - 76
Shuriken cannon
These Min/Max units are usefull; but once again, if an opponent can take care of one, then the second will fall shortly there after. I do advocate for some diversity but with other stuff changed, you could get away with both of these.
Well they are cheep and are there to harass, thats about all I expect against MEQs, but against Horde Orks/Nids/Guard, I expect them to deal out some serious pain. With the Shuriken cannon, it makes them a slight threat the most tanks and in conjunction with J-S-J strategy they can be very effective.

Vyper - 70
Scatter laser, shuriken cannon
Vyper - 80
Star cannon, shuriken cannon
My favourite Vyper build is the Scatter Varient, as for your Star varient.... I think you should drop the Shuri-cannon and get a EML instead as the added range will outweigh the extra shot (which the Scatter does better anyway for almost everything). Seriously, Starcannon is not a great option unless you know your facing Nid-zilla.
Hmm, a good idea, but the added shuriken cannon, is a steal for its points, but yeah, this Vyper has been on the chopping board for a while tbf, So yeah, I will weight up the choice between a Missile launcher or Scatter laser + Shuriken cannon and get back to you.

Swooping Hawks - 122
Exarch, Intercept
Too light, add another figure at least and get the Exarch a better weapon.
Hmm they are cheep anti tank, and will take out monoliths for sure, unless one/two drops on there heads, but still, they are nice anti tank, I've kept them cheep for the reason they are pretty likely to die. If there are no tanks, I will probably deep strike them behind safe cover and then use them as points denial (while using the n-ade pack once).

Falcon - 215
Star cannon, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines
Falcon - 215
Star cannon, Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines
Again with the Starcannons... everything else is decent; but did you know that you could get Star Engiens for these for less cost overall if you dropped the Starcannons for Scatterlasers or Shuri-cannons. Oh and there is no need to upgrade the catipults as smart opponents will not be letting them shoot that often.
Hmm, you make a good point, but, the star cannon makes a great accompaniment to the Pulse laser and the shuriken cannon, is added for much needed shots, a single round of shooting can make a mess of a tank or an infantry squad, but, I have been contemplating changing every star cannon to scatter lasers, but against Nid-lizza, they are invaluable, so its a hard choice.

Fire Prism - 190
Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones, Holofields, Vectored engines
No shuri-cannon, get Star Engines though to allow for turn 1 Tank Shock that will put your rear door facing the enemies table edge, then rip right through his army from there on out. If you going to the expense of 3 Super Grav Tanks, then go all the way and exploit the hell out of them.
erm, not sure this strategy is sound, I use the range of the Fire Prism until the latter turns where I go objective hunting. The shuriken cannon is there more as a back up weapons system, if the Pirsm cannon gets taken off, then its not totally useless and if i'm tank hunting, it can add fire power where needed, after all its BS4 as well.
____

Some more great advice for me there.

From the looks of it, I will be, adding a Fusion gun to the Autarch and down grading the Star cannon on the Vyper to a Scatter laser, to make points for the Fusion gun.

But looking to the long term future, I feel the Hawks maybe gone and possibly the Star cannons on the Falcons. But I will see how they play.

Thanks again for the constructive reply!! :)

-Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
Your army has a lot of really good stuff, I do see it struggling against a very fast army that can get the jump on you, out shoot you, or even out Assault you. Let me explain as here is what I mean; and I will try to stick to your basic theme and units.

Your Autarch is a good CC machine; but if he had units that he could join and Withdraw with (like you Harlies) he would just be that much better. The problem is that in real games it is difficult to get him to join with Harlies (apposed to say Shining Spears) as they need to dis-embark and move into a spot where he can join them. Thus I would suggest dropping one unit of harlies for something like Spears or even Spiders (becuase they all use 12" move base, and can move during the assault regardless of actually assauting).

(140) Autarch, JB, LL, Mand, F-gun
(187) 4 Shining Spears, Exarch with S-rider and Withdraw.
---- Do you see how these two units add to each other, the Autarch gives them all plasma (so they will often strike first), they all have S-rider so they can re-roll as they enter d-terrain, and Withdraw will get all of them the ability to re-locate as required. Together they can go into an enemy with 5 str=6+ shots, and 15 str=6 PW attacks; all at BS 4+ Init 5+ and WS 4+. If used right this squad or 2 squads can be assaulting on turn 2.

Now you should keep the mobile part working and the Assault so keep those Harlies; but get them into the action sooner.
(162) 6 Harlies, Sadowseer and 6 kisses.
(200) 1 Falcon, Pulse, Shuri-can, Catipult, HF, VE, SS and Star-engines.
---- The star engines allow you to zip across the table on turn 1 (possibly Tank-shocking as well) and just put your rear armour to his table edge. Thus you can have the harlies dis-embarking, moveing, fleeting, and assaluting on turn 2 as well (supporting the Spears or hitting elsewhere), and re-locating if required.

OK, Assault is covered, now you need some "Troops" that can harrass and possibly "Hold" an enemy in place for a turn or two (CC wall for good stuff to hide behind), and maybe add soem variety or hidden aspects to your list.
(76) 3 Jetbikes, 1 cannon.
(156) 5 Jetbikes, 1 cannon; Warlock has Destructor and Singing Spear.
---- You probably understand how the 3 pack works, so I won't bore you. But the other squad is very diseptive to most players (and enemies). It looks soft but its actually small enough to hide easily. It doesn't look like it can do too much; but it does have a cannon for side/reaer armour as well as the Spear, and the Flamer (destructor) coupled with 3 Cats and 1 Cannon can actually take a tool on plenty of units (even if their in cover). If you can get all the guns working, the unit even has enough figures to go into selective CC's to build you a Wall if needed, or just to tie something down until the Spears and Harlies can get there to assist.

Next we need some serious Anti-tank. I know that Hawks are great on a Monolith (or anything) but they are truely one hit wonders and they are not the easiest to use well. Thus I suggest something a little more conventional with a few twists thrown in.
(113) 6 Fire Dragons, Exarch with Dragons Breath Flamer and Crackshot
(200) 1 Falcon, Pulse, Shuri-can, Catipult, HF, VE, SS and Star-engines.
---- Again the Star engines allow for that first turn "Rush", just leave the FD's inside and then on turn 2, when they Dis-embark, move and shoot something, your Spears and/or Harlies should be close by to finish it off, thus the FD's gain some safety from return assaults/shooting as well. Now, the DBF is there for a variety of reasons, if your enemy sticks his Devastators in cover, then they will be hit with that str=5 flamer that allows you to re-roll wounds and gives no cover saves.... ouch. The unit is also very usefull against things like Termies as they are normally pretty small in number so those 5 Ap=1 weapons and the flamer can normally take a big chunk out of them.

Now your still missing that Big gun you had and some extra mobile support so let me see what I can do for that.
(70) 1 Vyper, Scatter and Shuri-can
(195) 1 Fireprism, prism, cat, HF, VE, SS, and Star-engines.
---- Now you could run the Prism a lot lighter if you wanted to, the only reason I put the VE and Star-E in there was to give it the ability to "Rush" with your other tanks on turn 1; which would also compensate for only having the 1 Vyper. You understand how these two units work I am sure; the only thing I will add is that the Vyper (in this capacity) sould be used more cautously as it is better as a mid/late game unit that focuses on VP denial for early success.

If you wanted to have the second Vyper you could easily trim the second JB unit down to another 3-pack special; but, you would loose all "Holding" power for the army if you did this, and because the Vypers should be used as "Fire-support" you may find that you don't have a lot of things to shoot at as you can easily assault 2+ enemy units on turn 2, as well as have those FD's blasting one unit away, not to mention any Tank-shock or shooting that the tanks will be doing for you turn 1-2....

Let me know what you think as I have run a lot of these Mechanized, assault based armies (in tournies) and although the point level is a bit low (for me - most tournies running 1.7-2K) the concepts are the same.... Oh and believe me, the next unit I would add would be a good unit of Hawks as Necrons are an issue and the Hawks have been one of the most reliable Monolith destroyers I have ever found.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Woah, Epic reply Thanks! and I'm gonna put this into word to quote and edit this post with a response. back in a bit! lol.

-Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
I eagerly await your reply as I see some true genuis coming from this discussion (all around as I am still refining my craft with Beil-Tan/Saim-Hann Hybrid lists as well).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Your army has a lot of really good stuff, I do see it struggling against a very fast army that can get the jump on you, out shoot you, or even out Assault you. Let me explain as here is what I mean; and I will try to stick to your basic theme and units.
The army I can really see my army struggling against is a J-S-J Tau army, I got slaughtered at a local tourney by one, back when I had just started with Eldar, but my list has changed and my tactics have VASTLY improved since then as well. But yeah a fair comment if it’s backed up.

Your Autarch is a good CC machine; but if he had units that he could join and Withdraw with (like you Harlies) he would just be that much better. The problem is that in real games it is difficult to get him to join with Harlies (apposed to say Shining Spears) as they need to dis-embark and move into a spot where he can join them. Thus I would suggest dropping one unit of harlies for something like Spears or even Spiders (becuase they all use 12" move base, and can move during the assault regardless of actually assauting).
Fair point, the Autarch is a daemon in combat as it stands, able to wipe out or at least cripple most small (ish) units 5/6 man las/plas teams or Battlesuits, which are the targets I’m aiming to take out, along with small dev squads.

I do like the idea of Shining Spears, I really do, but, they are, to me a one it wonders, one turn of combat and then they tend to be mobbed and utterly destroyed. Defiantly something to consider though, and a unit I look to try at some point for sure. Although I’m not really willing to drop a unit of Harlequins, my precious Harlequins! Spiders are bit, nah, for me, they look good in theory, but in game turns I’ve found them wanting on many occasions, there is just too much barrage, guess weaponry out there that can take the entire squad out in one shot, Vindis, Basilisks, D-Cannons, Defilers you get the picture, and they are one of the units, for me, that carry a high threat perception and are a must kill when facing them, same for Hawks as well, thf.

(140) Autarch, JB, LL, Mand, F-gun
(187) 4 Shining Spears, Exarch with S-rider and Withdraw.
---- Do you see how these two units add to each other, the Autarch gives them all plasma (so they will often strike first), they all have S-rider so they can re-roll as they enter d-terrain, and Withdraw will get all of them the ability to re-locate as required. Together they can go into an enemy with 5 str=6+ shots, and 15 str=6 PW attacks; all at BS 4+ Init 5+ and WS 4+. If used right this squad or 2 squads can be assaulting on turn 2.
I do know how these units interact with each other, and how they give each other there strength, numbers and withdraw and Plasma, 6 LL attacks. And yes annihilating a big squad by turn 2 is very attractive, but the problem I have is that, will they peek to soon? And they will be very lonely in the enemy DZ by turn 2, although if all is going well, they would have the support of a Harlequin unit or two by turn 3. The problem I see is that they will destroy a unit, then be left isolated and pretty much dead next turn.

Hmm, in high pts games, a unit of 6 Shining Spears, Autarch tooled correctly and a Farseer on JB with Fortune, would be one hardcore unit!!! Would cost some pts, but my god, *drools a little*.

Now you should keep the mobile part working and the Assault so keep those Harlies; but get them into the action sooner.
(162) 6 Harlies, Sadowseer and 6 kisses.
(200) 1 Falcon, Pulse, Shuri-can, Catipult, HF, VE, SS and Star-engines.
---- The star engines allow you to zip across the table on turn 1 (possibly Tank-shocking as well) and just put your rear armour to his table edge. Thus you can have the harlies dis-embarking, moveing, fleeting, and assaluting on turn 2 as well (supporting the Spears or hitting elsewhere), and re-locating if required.
Star Engines, are a very attractive piece of gear for me to use. But I am a fan of upgrading the catapults to a cannon and well, I’m not really a fan of the cannon as a ‘main’ weapon, I prefer Scatter lasers or Star cannons, as they cause more damage and the range is quite a considerable bit better, for me this is very important on a main battle tank, I can understand they might not be firing every turn and this is one consideration I’m taking into account by downgrading the Star cannons on my Falcons currently to Scatter lasers, but when they can fire, I want the Falcons to be doing considerable damage, I can see where your coming from, don’t get me wrong, but I feel this is where our gaming ethics differ some what.

OK, Assault is covered, now you need some "Troops" that can harrass and possibly "Hold" an enemy in place for a turn or two (CC wall for good stuff to hide behind), and maybe add soem variety or hidden aspects to your list.
(76) 3 Jetbikes, 1 cannon.
(156) 5 Jetbikes, 1 cannon; Warlock has Destructor and Singing Spear.
---- You probably understand how the 3 pack works, so I won't bore you. But the other squad is very diseptive to most players (and enemies). It looks soft but its actually small enough to hide easily. It doesn't look like it can do too much; but it does have a cannon for side/reaer armour as well as the Spear, and the Flamer (destructor) coupled with 3 Cats and 1 Cannon can actually take a tool on plenty of units (even if their in cover). If you can get all the guns working, the unit even has enough figures to go into selective CC's to build you a Wall if needed, or just to tie something down until the Spears and Harlies can get there to assist.
I do like the harass and hold elements, the hold element, is something I currently do not possess in the list, and something I have been looking into either purchasing(£££) or adding to the list from my bench units (DAs, Guardians, Warlocks, 2 units of 6 Dragons and wave serpents to match).

Your suggestions all make sense, but again, I think it falls down to gaming preferences, I like the Jetbike units small, and fairly cheep. The Warlock seems a good addition though; possibly something I could look into purchasing for an existing unit of Jetbikes. For about 50pts it will add lots of diversity to a unit and another warm body as well.

Next we need some serious Anti-tank. I know that Hawks are great on a Monolith (or anything) but they are truely one hit wonders and they are not the easiest to use well. Thus I suggest something a little more conventional with a few twists thrown in.
Agreed, I have used them quite a few times and well, they are good, but, yeah one hit wonders, that’s if they get there, which tbf, they do tend to, due to my ‘skillful’ high rolls on the fleet movement yay for 24” charge at Landraiders, but there are better things out there, I do agree, they should probably be dropped in favour of a more VP denial unit that can tank hunt.

(113) 6 Fire Dragons, Exarch with Dragons Breath Flamer and Crackshot
(200) 1 Falcon, Pulse, Shuri-can, Catipult, HF, VE, SS and Star-engines.
---- Again the Star engines allow for that first turn "Rush", just leave the FD's inside and then on turn 2, when they Dis-embark, move and shoot something, your Spears and/or Harlies should be close by to finish it off, thus the FD's gain some safety from return assaults/shooting as well. Now, the DBF is there for a variety of reasons, if your enemy sticks his Devastators in cover, then they will be hit with that str=5 flamer that allows you to re-roll wounds and gives no cover saves.... ouch. The unit is also very usefull against things like Termies as they are normally pretty small in number so those 5 Ap=1 weapons and the flamer can normally take a big chunk out of them.
A very very good strategy, and one I’ve been looking to employing, I do like to boost my Falcons the 24” when I’ve taken Fire Dragons (most battles). The exarch, well for me the jury is still out on weather or not I should be taken, as it adds to the unit cost, 6 basic Fire Dragons cost under a 100pts! (Amazing, I’ve said, its one of the best pt for pt purchase in the game), and well, the Exarch is not a compulsory purchase for me. But on the plus side, it adds some much needed increased BS, hitting on a 2+, the very cheep upgrade in the Flamer (lol) adds some much needed diversity, and the ability to take out units well dug into cover (Toasted Pathfinders anyone?), but that does not take advantage of the Exarches better BS, and takes away what could be a vital Meltagun hit. The added crack shot is very impressive though. Coming in at under 20pts, its not a huge price hike, but it turns what’s an extremely cheep unit (96pts) into a not quite so cheep unit, but it is very effective, and one I have been pondering myself, weather or not to upgrade an Exarch, if so to add crack shot and then… weather or not to swap the Meltagun to Dragons Breathe, so yeah defiantly an option I’m not ruling it out or in, lol.

Now your still missing that Big gun you had and some extra mobile support so let me see what I can do for that.
(70) 1 Vyper, Scatter and Shuri-can
(195) 1 Fireprism, prism, cat, HF, VE, SS, and Star-engines.
---- Now you could run the Prism a lot lighter if you wanted to, the only reason I put the VE and Star-E in there was to give it the ability to "Rush" with your other tanks on turn 1; which would also compensate for only having the 1 Vyper. You understand how these two units work I am sure; the only thing I will add is that the Vyper (in this capacity) sould be used more cautously as it is better as a mid/late game unit that focuses on VP denial for early success.
I’m not eager to let my Prism get that close to the enemy, because it is just a floating big gun, with a big range, and I want to take advantage as that, tbh, I like it to hang back and snipe away at units, or tanks. So for me, Star cannons are a big no-no for me, on the Fire Prism at least. And yep the VP denial on the Vyper is duly noted, it is quite a skill to keep the Vyper ticking over the VPs while still remaining alive, one I have yet to master, but I keep trying.

If you wanted to have the second Vyper you could easily trim the second JB unit down to another 3-pack special; but, you would loose all "Holding" power for the army if you did this, and because the Vypers should be used as "Fire-support" you may find that you don't have a lot of things to shoot at as you can easily assault 2+ enemy units on turn 2, as well as have those FD's blasting one unit away, not to mention any Tank-shock or shooting that the tanks will be doing for you turn 1-2....
I agree, the lack of a holding unit in this list is quite worrying, and one I have been looking to improve on. But a second Vyper is very tempting and one I will probably an option to tempting to resist, as much as I appreciate the idea of a holding unit (it is a very good idea, and one I had been contemplating, the idea of a Warlock lead jetbike squad is quite tempting)

Let me know what you think as I have run a lot of these Mechanized, assault based armies (in tournies) and although the point level is a bit low (for me - most tournies running 1.7-2K) the concepts are the same.... Oh and believe me, the next unit I would add would be a good unit of Hawks as Necrons are an issue and the Hawks have been one of the most reliable Monolith destroyers I have ever found.
Cool, how have done? (if you don’t mind me asking, you do make lot of sense and all your suggestions have been well thought out and I can tell you play Siam-Hann a lot, you also seem a very experienced gamer.) Yep Hawks are great one hit wonders, probably a bit too expensive, for what they are, but still, a good unit.

Right well, that was an epic reply lol!!!

So your proposed list is

1 autarch – laser lance, jetbike, mandiblasters, fusion gun
6 fire dragons – exarch, flamer, crackshot
6 harlequins – 6 kisses, shadowseer
3 jetbikes – shuriken cannon
5 jetbikes – warlocks, destructer, singing spear, shuriken cannon
4 shining spears – exarch, skilled rider, withdraw
1 vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon
1 falcon – shuriken cannon, holofields, vectored engines, spirit stones, star engines
1 falcon – shuriken cannon, holofields, vectored engines, spirit stones, star engines
1 fire prism – spirit stones, vectored engines, holofields, star engines

My current list (with changes)

1 autarch – laser lance, jetbike, mandiblasters, fusion gun
6 harlequins – shadowseer, 6 kisses
6 fire dragons – exarch, flamer, crackshot
6 fire dragons - or a squad of Avengers with say defend to be the ‘hold’ part of my list, I would have to drop a squad of jetbikes as well)
1 wave serpent – scatter lasers, spirit stones, vectored engines
3 jetbikes – shuriken cannon
3 jetbikes – shuriken cannon
1 vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon
1 vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon
1 falcon – scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines, holofields, star engines
1 falcon – scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines, holofields, star engines
1 fire prism – spirit stones, holo fields, vectored engines

I have to be honest and say, I would love to implement most of your changes, especially the shining spears, as they are pretty hard core, but, at the moment, I don’t have the money to purchase a squad, I would drop the fire dragon squad in wave serpent take make room and then add a warlock to one of the jetbike squads to make the points up.

So yeah, I’m very grateful for your post, but atm, I don’t have the funds to implement the changes.

-Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
Cool, how have done? (if you don’t mind me asking, you do make lot of sense and all your suggestions have been well thought out and I can tell you play Siam-Hann a lot, you also seem a very experienced gamer.) Yep Hawks are great one hit wonders, probably a bit too expensive, for what they are, but still, a good unit.
I have actually done very well in tournament play over the years. Never winning best overall; but in general winning all my games (I just don't massacre as often as those insain Chaos Bombs, or Nid-zilla lists) and often taking the Best General award (and/or other awards). I play (suppression styled) Saim-Hann (for the most part) and various other styles/armies; but I do go for themed list more than pure "Power Lists". I know that I posted a seriously agressive list; but I thought that was your intent and now that I understand that your more into the Suppression style, I will try and give you more appropiate advice. And I actually do often take my Hawks to tournies, and they do well, the trick is to be very patient with them and use them appropriately for each enemy (they are good mobile Snipers, they can Skyleap, and they can Hold things like cetain IG units, etc).

My current list (with changes) Since you seam to want a little more of a "Suppression" list, than a "Rush" list think about some of these ideas.

1 autarch – laser lance, jetbike, mandiblasters, fusion gunGood, and if you keep him a little bit handy to the Harlies, they can assault together so that he can Withdraw when they do.
6 harlequins – shadowseer, 6 kisses Good, just keep them at the ready until turn 3+
6 fire dragons – exarch, flamer, crackshot You can do the Rush; but actually with the other suggestions they would turn into more of a turn 2+ shooting unit to set-up for the rest of your army.
6 fire dragons - or a squad of Avengers with say defend to be the ‘hold’ part of my list, I would have to drop a squad of jetbikes as well)Avengers all the way if your going with a Serpent and you want a True "Holding" unit, consider this.
(177) 10 Avengers, Exarch with Power Weapon & Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm, and Defend. As they can still put out 27 Bladstorm shots at 18" but they can also recieve a lot more incoming before they get hurt. And in HtH they are so much more resilient (and a PW never hurts).
1 wave serpent – scatter lasers, spirit stones, vectored engines Serpent is fine as you have it; but since its probably hanging back a little (as you discribed your play more) then go for the Shuri-can upgrade as well.
3 jetbikes – shuriken cannon
3 jetbikes – shuriken cannon Pure harrasment; but don't forget that they are still a good item to assault things like Necron Destroyers who may be tough; but put out very little in HtH.
1 vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon
1 vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon Solid, and if you find that your still not far enougha way from teh enemy, then simply go with EML Vypers with no upgrades and get even more distance, anti-tank potential and even a Pie Plate from time to time.
1 falcon – scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines, holofields, star engines
1 falcon – scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines, holofields, star engines No problem here, except that if your hanging back, just drop teh Star Engines as they are not a complimentary item for a "sutto" gunship.
1 fire prism – spirit stones, holo fields, vectored engines Solid for your purposes, but throw the Shuri-can back on, just for those time that you do want it.

I have to be honest and say, I would love to implement most of your changes, especially the shining spears, as they are pretty hard core, but, at the moment, I don’t have the money to purchase a squad, I would drop the fire dragon squad in wave serpent take make room and then add a warlock to one of the jetbike squads to make the points up.
Money is always an issue, and if you have the other figures, they certainly can be used well enough. I too like all the Eldar units... and I use them all (OK, not so much for support platforms and scorpions; but thats another issue). I suggest that you try stuff out (with proxies if you have to) before you buy them to see if a certain style suits you as I can use Spears with ease; but others do find them to be 1 hit wonders....

Here is one of my stratagies with Spears.
Turn 1, rush them ahead using Turbo to gain a 3+(inv) save, if I have a Farseer, then Fortune them first if I can. Keep the Autarch close (maybe sorrounded) but not part of the squad (so he cant get targeted).
Turn 2, Assault the enemies best shooting units (Devastators, Havocs, etc); but, don't use their shooting on the way in (as you don't want to Overkill the enemy squad). On average the Autarch with 6 attacks will kill 3-4 guys, the Spears with their 9 Attacks will get you 4-5 more so you either want to hit a large squad or split them (with the Autarch remianing closer to your other forces). Either way, you don't want to kill off the entire enemy squad, you want to have 2-3 left in the CC so that you can be in CC during his turn (avoiding any enemy return fire). You also want to make sure that he does nothave a serious assault squad handy (so you hit them with other stuff) to pile into your Spears/Autarch later. Then during his turn, after Combat is Resolved, you withdraw so that you can re0initiate the whole process on Turn 3+... I have done this on tau and ripped through 4 squads of Firewarriors in a game, after completely crushing some Suits and using the masacre move to hit the first Firewarriors squad. I never actually finished off any of hte FW squads in CC, but the 2-3 that were left after I moved on, were easy pickings for my shooting (spiders, hawks, JB's, etc). I slo don't run 3 Grav Tanks at 1.5K, as I like the points for other things (like Spiders, Hawks, Vypers)... Lastly, one of my favourite "Holding" units is (212) 6 Jetbikes, 2 Cannons; +Warlock on JB, with Enhance. they can harrass like there is no tomorrow, and when they come for an assault all those catapults add up, not to mention that with +1 Int, and +1WS they actually can hurt even SM's enough to hold onto them for 2-3 rounds (and if youcan Fortune them, well its rediculous).

Here is my current 1.5K list that I am actually running in a 7 game Campaign.
(130) Autarch, JB, LL, and F-gun.
(123) Farseer, JB, Mindwar, Spear and RoWard.
(113) 6 FD's, Ex with DBF and CS.
(76) 3 JB's, 1 cannon.
(156) 5 JB's, 1 cannon, Warlock with Destructor and Spear.
(187) 4 Shining Spears, Exarch with S-rider and withdraw.
(174) 6 Spiders, Exarch with PB's, DDS, and Withdraw.
(173) 6 Hawks, Exarch with Sunrifle, Int, and Sky.
(185) Falcon, Pulse, Cannon, Cat, HF, VE, and SS.
(180) Fireprim, Prism, Cat, HF, VE, and SS.
Totals 1497pts, 8 Scoring units, 34 figures.
Seriously suppresive with most CC happening in the late game, after the table is controlled fully and all the enemy tanks and nasties are dealt with. Its so fast and weird (plays very different form most Eldar armies) that few players understand how to deal with it. And so far it is 6-0-0 beating Necrons twice (Hawks taking care of the Mono in both games), Dark Angels (rhino rush army using combat squads for Las/Plas), Ultras (with 12 Ass-Cannons between 3 Termie squads and 6 Landspeeders, as well as two cheap tac squads and his HQ), Hybrid Tau (Suits & Foot fireWarriors), and Crimson Fist (Gun line).

Let me know what you think overall and what you wnat to do, and I will continue to try and help you. I love the way your list is developing, and I see that your a fan of supperior stratagy over Cheese. Awesome in todays day and age.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
I think the list would be fun to play and is a great idea. That said I can't say I am a fan of any army with only 150 points of troops. Especially with the New 5th ed rules around the corner you are gonna get killed VP wise. More jet bikes and maybe some dire avengers. Eldar have a real advantage in the diversity of there troop choices take advantage of that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Cool, how have done? (if you don’t mind me asking, you do make lot of sense and all your suggestions have been well thought out and I can tell you play Siam-Hann a lot, you also seem a very experienced gamer.) Yep Hawks are great one hit wonders, probably a bit too expensive, for what they are, but still, a good unit.
I have actually done very well in tournament play over the years. Never winning best overall; but in general winning all my games (I just don't massacre as often as those insain Chaos Bombs, or Nid-zilla lists) and often taking the Best General award (and/or other awards). I play (suppression styled) Saim-Hann (for the most part) and various other styles/armies; but I do go for themed list more than pure "Power Lists". I know that I posted a seriously agressive list; but I thought that was your intent and now that I understand that your more into the Suppression style, I will try and give you more appropiate advice. And I actually do often take my Hawks to tournies, and they do well, the trick is to be very patient with them and use them appropriately for each enemy (they are good mobile Snipers, they can Skyleap, and they can Hold things like cetain IG units, etc).
Congrats on doing so well at tournaments!! Without the need to make ubber power gaming lists, it is an art form really, it is, you need skill practice and dedication to pull it off! Well done sir!

I like to play a Suppression list, as it allows for me to play the horde armies and other armies like DE, who spam the small min/maxed list, in away I feel comfortable and confident way, as I can chip away at the units then move in for the kill.

My current list (with changes) Since you seam to want a little more of a "Suppression" list, than a "Rush" list think about some of these ideas.

1 autarch – laser lance, jetbike, mandiblasters, fusion gunGood, and if you keep him a little bit handy to the Harlies, they can assault together so that he can Withdraw when they do.
6 harlequins – shadowseer, 6 kisses Good, just keep them at the ready until turn 3+
6 fire dragons – exarch, flamer, crackshot You can do the Rush; but actually with the other suggestions they would turn into more of a turn 2+ shooting unit to set-up for the rest of your army.
6 fire dragons - or a squad of Avengers with say defend to be the ‘hold’ part of my list, I would have to drop a squad of jetbikes as well)Avengers all the way if your going with a Serpent and you want a True "Holding" unit, consider this.
(177) 10 Avengers, Exarch with Power Weapon & Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm, and Defend. As they can still put out 27 Bladstorm shots at 18" but they can also recieve a lot more incoming before they get hurt. And in HtH they are so much more resilient (and a PW never hurts).
1 wave serpent – scatter lasers, spirit stones, vectored engines Serpent is fine as you have it; but since its probably hanging back a little (as you discribed your play more) then go for the Shuri-can upgrade as well.
3 jetbikes – shuriken cannon
3 jetbikes – shuriken cannon Pure harrasment; but don't forget that they are still a good item to assault things like Necron Destroyers who may be tough; but put out very little in HtH.
1 vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon
1 vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon Solid, and if you find that your still not far enougha way from teh enemy, then simply go with EML Vypers with no upgrades and get even more distance, anti-tank potential and even a Pie Plate from time to time.
1 falcon – scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines, holofields, star engines
1 falcon – scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines, holofields, star engines No problem here, except that if your hanging back, just drop teh Star Engines as they are not a complimentary item for a "sutto" gunship.
1 fire prism – spirit stones, holo fields, vectored engines Solid for your purposes, but throw the Shuri-can back on, just for those time that you do want it.
After taking your advice on board and using some of your tactical advice, I have made a new list, that I will post later on in my reply.

I have to be honest and say, I would love to implement most of your changes, especially the shining spears, as they are pretty hard core, but, at the moment, I don’t have the money to purchase a squad, I would drop the fire dragon squad in wave serpent take make room and then add a warlock to one of the jetbike squads to make the points up.
Money is always an issue, and if you have the other figures, they certainly can be used well enough. I too like all the Eldar units... and I use them all (OK, not so much for support platforms and scorpions; but thats another issue). I suggest that you try stuff out (with proxies if you have to) before you buy them to see if a certain style suits you as I can use Spears with ease; but others do find them to be 1 hit wonders....
Proxy is a good idea, but the problem I have, is that I tend to battle at the local games workshop, although I have not been in months, lol. But when I do, they have a stringent, WSIWYG policy and everything has to be painted and based, one of the reasons I stopped attending and started to travel to Nottingham to battle at WHW, but I need something that has the same or a similar footprint. (A problem with singing spears).

Here is one of my stratagies with Spears.
Turn 1, rush them ahead using Turbo to gain a 3+(inv) save, if I have a Farseer, then Fortune them first if I can. Keep the Autarch close (maybe sorrounded) but not part of the squad (so he cant get targeted).
Turn 2, Assault the enemies best shooting units (Devastators, Havocs, etc); but, don't use their shooting on the way in (as you don't want to Overkill the enemy squad). On average the Autarch with 6 attacks will kill 3-4 guys, the Spears with their 9 Attacks will get you 4-5 more so you either want to hit a large squad or split them (with the Autarch remianing closer to your other forces). Either way, you don't want to kill off the entire enemy squad, you want to have 2-3 left in the CC so that you can be in CC during his turn (avoiding any enemy return fire). You also want to make sure that he does nothave a serious assault squad handy (so you hit them with other stuff) to pile into your Spears/Autarch later. Then during his turn, after Combat is Resolved, you withdraw so that you can re0initiate the whole process on Turn 3+... I have done this on tau and ripped through 4 squads of Firewarriors in a game, after completely crushing some Suits and using the masacre move to hit the first Firewarriors squad. I never actually finished off any of hte FW squads in CC, but the 2-3 that were left after I moved on, were easy pickings for my shooting (spiders, hawks, JB's, etc).
Cool guide! If/went I have the money for some spears they are pretty immense in combat! And they don’t need to wait a turn to into position then assault… making them very impressive, used right, I could have dragons softening up on flank, with say the FP, then on the other, I have the Vypers softening a few targets then the spears assault, not killing an entire unit (along with the Autarch) they are now I serious threat and the enemy will want to kill them, he moves closer/assaults then I have the harlequins + spears assault those relief units… more or less winning me the battle. (and using the key to making Eldar successful, squad coherency and having each unit in the list has a purpose a goal to achieve success)

I slo don't run 3 Grav Tanks at 1.5K, as I like the points for other things (like Spiders, Hawks, Vypers)... Lastly, one of my favourite "Holding" units is (212) 6 Jetbikes, 2 Cannons; +Warlock on JB, with Enhance. they can harrass like there is no tomorrow, and when they come for an assault all those catapults add up, not to mention that with +1 Int, and +1WS they actually can hurt even SM's enough to hold onto them for 2-3 rounds (and if youcan Fortune them, well its rediculous).
In the new list, I have taken a unit of these, 5 Jetbikes, 1 cannon, + warlock on jetbike, with spear and enhance (spear for anti tank, plus the model has a spear, although I would prefer a blade… maybe something I can re-model if I ever get the painting bug again.)



Here is my current 1.5K list that I am actually running in a 7 game Campaign.
(130) Autarch, JB, LL, and F-gun.
(123) Farseer, JB, Mindwar, Spear and RoWard.
(113) 6 FD's, Ex with DBF and CS.
(76) 3 JB's, 1 cannon.
(156) 5 JB's, 1 cannon, Warlock with Destructor and Spear.
(187) 4 Shining Spears, Exarch with S-rider and withdraw.
(174) 6 Spiders, Exarch with PB's, DDS, and Withdraw.
(173) 6 Hawks, Exarch with Sunrifle, Int, and Sky.
(185) Falcon, Pulse, Cannon, Cat, HF, VE, and SS.
(180) Fireprim, Prism, Cat, HF, VE, and SS.
Totals 1497pts, 8 Scoring units, 34 figures.
Seriously suppresive with most CC happening in the late game, after the table is controlled fully and all the enemy tanks and nasties are dealt with. Its so fast and weird (plays very different form most Eldar armies) that few players understand how to deal with it. And so far it is 6-0-0 beating Necrons twice (Hawks taking care of the Mono in both games), Dark Angels (rhino rush army using combat squads for Las/Plas), Ultras (with 12 Ass-Cannons between 3 Termie squads and 6 Landspeeders, as well as two cheap tac squads and his HQ), Hybrid Tau (Suits & Foot fireWarriors), and Crimson Fist (Gun line).
A great list!! (as seen in the results!)

To me, it doesn’t look from a first glance as a truly powerful list, but looking at it closer and reading some of your tactics, it really is a refined and powerful list, with the ability to move so quickly, and apply so much fire power to sections of an army, then move in for the kill with dragons and spears, all backed up by a Farseer and Autarch, impressive.

Let me know what you think overall and what you wnat to do, and I will continue to try and help you. I love the way your list is developing, and I see that your a fan of supperior stratagy over Cheese. Awesome in todays day and age.
After thinking about what you said and my models, I have changed the list, to include an holding unit, 5 jetbikes, 1 cannon, warlock, spear and enhance.

I’m a tactition at heart, I love to analyse battles and certain moves people do, I’m not much of a painter or fluff person, I love the models and love to play a tactical battles sometimes its fun to test a list and just throw caution to the wind and go super aggressive, wrong footing opponents or to play a really defensive style of gaming, only revealing units when the time is right and then go for the kill, although not fun for the enemy, it is a good way to get wins, but not friends imo, anyways, I love the nitty gritty of 40k and I do have a powerful list, some call it cheesy yes, but that’s not the be all and end all of the list for me.

Right onto the new list…

1 Autarch – laser lance, mandiblasters, fusion gun, jetbike – 140
6 Fire Dragons – exarch with dragons breathe and crack shot – 113
6 Harlequins – 6 kisses and shadowseer – 162
6 JB – 2 cannons, + warlock, enhance, spear – 215
5 Pathfinders - 120
1 Vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon – 70
1 Vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon – 70
1 Falcon – holofields, vectored engines, star engines, spirit stones, scatter laser, cannon – 220
1 Falcon – holofields, vectored engines, star engines, spirit stones, 2 cannons – 210
1 Fire Prism – holofields, vectored engines, spirit stones – 180

-1500pts

Begrudgingly I had to downgrade the scatter laser on one falcon to a shuriken cannon…

As for how I will play this the list,

Falcon rush the enemy first turn with the jetbikes in close pursuit + Autarch, the Vypers + fire prism, gets into position, then next turn the carnage really begins. Dumping two hardcore units into there DZ, and let the fun begin really. Or I can delay that a turn, by shooting first turn, then get into position, then do the real damage, or I can just fire into the enemy if I do enough damage, without risking my soft infantry squads, denying VPs.

Oh and an improvement in the amount of points I’ve spent on my troop choice, a 5th of my pts.

Cheers for the advice moc, most impressive :eek:k:

-Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
Right onto the new list…

1 Autarch – laser lance, mandiblasters, fusion gun, jetbike – 140
6 Fire Dragons – exarch with dragons breathe and crack shot – 113
6 Harlequins – 6 kisses and shadowseer – 162
6 JB – 2 cannons, + warlock, enhance, spear – 183
5 Pathfinders - 120
1 Vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon – 70
1 Vyper – scatter laser, shuriken cannon – 70
1 Falcon – holofields, vectored engines, star engines, spirit stones, scatter laser, cannon – 220
1 Falcon – holofields, vectored engines, star engines, spirit stones, 2 cannons – 210
1 Fire Prism – holofields, vectored engines, spirit stones – 180

-1500pts

Begrudgingly I had to downgrade the scatter laser on one falcon to a shuriken cannon…

As for how I will play this the list,

Falcon rush the enemy first turn with the jetbikes in close pursuit + Autarch, the Vypers + fire prism, gets into position, then next turn the carnage really begins. Dumping two hardcore units into there DZ, and let the fun begin really. Or I can delay that a turn, by shooting first turn, then get into position, then do the real damage, or I can just fire into the enemy if I do enough damage, without risking my soft infantry squads, denying VPs.

Oh and an improvement in the amount of points I’ve spent on my troop choice, a 5th of my pts.

Cheers for the advice moc, most impressive :eek:k:
-Rob
Looking pretty solid now and I would love to play against it.... Seriously it would be fun.

I do have to ask about this squad though.
6 JB – 2 cannons, + warlock, enhance, spear – 183
Because I don't see the math working out.....
6 JB – 2 cannons = 152 And there is no way to get a Warlock on JB with Enhance and Spear for 31 points... its more...
If your thinking that the Warlock is the 6th JB, then you can't have the 2nd Cannon; as both cannons and Warlocks get added to the initial or Base Squad... and you need 6 standard JB's to have 2 Cannons... then you woule be adding a Warlock on JB, enhance and spear to bring your total to (215), or your using 5 JB's + warlock and only 1 Cannon for 183... so I thin kyou just wrote it down wrong.

Part of any good list is the Troops, and believe it or not they often end up being the MVP's in the game.... Glad to be of assistance.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top