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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys, my girlfriend wanted to start playing with daemons. Since i'm not the best daemon list writer, i'd like your help to understand how to make better this list we sorted out. I'd like to point out that in our meta, flyiers are almost absent (just a couple of hledrakes and a couple of dakkajet)

Bloodthirster
greater gift (Blood blade)
(270)

Lord of change
ML 3
(255)

20 daemonettes, alluress
(185)

10 plaguebearers (90)

15 Bloodhounds (240)
10 Bloodhounds (160)

Chaos Sorceror
10 cultists
(110)

3 Obliterators
MoNurgle
(228)

Tot - 1500 -

Any ideas on how to improve?
Our biggest concern was the lacking of heavy support, hence the oblits. Also, i feel we have too few threats, altough all is very fast and likely to charge turn 2
 

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My biggest concern is that you say that your army is 1500 pts, but by your own calculations you are spending 1538 and haven't actually included the points cost for the Sorcerer.
 

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^The sorceror and cultists together come to 110 points

Do you know how much flesh hounds actually cost? They're £6 each, so 25 will set you back £150. I'd be temped to make one of those units screamers purely for that factor, and I don't often let the cost of the hobby bother me too much. Some units though... ouch :shok:

You seem to be paying a hell of a lot for those obliterators if the sorceror and cultists are just in there to fill force org slots. Maybe you could spend the points you would have spent on the CSM allies on units like screamers and seekers, who fit with the fast aspect of the list and have ways to strip hull points

I don't actually know how viable screamers and seekers are but they look decent to me. To squeeze in so many fast attack slots the sorceror and cultists could be another daemon troop unit and if you split the big unit of daemonettes in two you could have two detachments, letting you spend the points saved on the obliterators on screamers and seekers. To be honest I don't think it's necessarily a better option than the CSM ally one you already have, but it's an alternative at least.
 

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It's all down to personal taste, but I prefer Seekers to Fleshhounds personally. This is due to several reason:

1) They're cheaper to buy (a good point if you're just starting out)
2) They run an extra 6''.
3) They have 4 rending attacks on the charge, at initiative 5. A fleshhound have 3 on the charge, no rending at initiative 4.
4) They only have 1 wound though, and are only strength 4 so they will cause fewer wounds overall. But with the rending I can almost guarantee that they will kill more units on the charge on anything 4+ and above.

Beyond that I wouldn't recommend a Bloodthirster anymore unless you plan on summoning him. He's a pointsink and have to effectively jump up the board now to get into close combat, unless you want to wait for turn 3 to get in there. The way I see it, you can build a effecitve daemonprince in 2 ways now:

CC oriented: Nurgle, wings, powerarmor, psyker (2/3) and greater gift. Jump him up the board and jink for that 2+ coversave. The greater gift gives him a instant death weapon with Ap2. Stack up on biomancy for ironarm.

Ranged oriented: Slaanesh, wings, powerarmor, psyker (2/3) and greater gift. Keep him in the air, swap the greater gift for a whip and hope for ironarm. You get 2D6 STR 9, Ap- 12'' attacks per round and can be a deadly vehicle killer.

Beyond that, I would recommend more troops. You have too many hounds compared to basic troops and I would recommend either a full squad of Daemonettes more or a squad of Bloodletters.

Just my 2 cents :)
 

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Another idea- had you thought of Skarbrand instead of the bloodthirster? Realistically you'd have to deepstrike but with fast units to get off some turn 2 charges you might get away with it. I've been working on a CSM/daemons list which originally had a bloodthirster in it, but when swoop and smash took nerfs I considered other options and decided on Skarbrand for annihilating vehicles and being better in combat along with being cheaper. In 7th wings aren't what they were for a CC FMC and with armourbane Skarbrand can take out pretty much any vehicle on the charge. Fleshbane and instant death too, and yours is a list that will benefit from the rage and hatred bubble he gives.

Again, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks a lot guys :)
About skarbrand: definitely worth considering!
About seekers of slaanesh: the 1 Wound is truly an issue. with 15 hounds i can have 30 wounds at T4, while with seekers i can just manage (for the same cost) 18-20 wounds at T3... being shot to pieces is an issue, maybe could mix: 15 seekers and 10 hounds?

About DP: i could take a second HQ in the form of the slaaneshi ironarm prince...could be great. Also the nurgle one, not to be sneezed at.

Troops: more troops would mean to drop something else, do i really need them? maybe another 10 daemonettes...

CSM detachment: a sorc is there to give another power dice and a possible biomancy boost. cultist act as cheap objective holders, and oblits are a most needed long range support...i could swap them for a grinder with warpgaze or bombardment, but will that be enough?

later i'll rewrite a new version of the list.

P.S. @mayegelt, thanks for the error check. i was drunk while writing...
 

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About seekers of slaanesh: the 1 Wound is truly an issue. with 15 hounds i can have 30 wounds at T4, while with seekers i can just manage (for the same cost) 18-20 wounds at T3... being shot to pieces is an issue, maybe could mix: 15 seekers and 10 hounds?
In the end it depends on what you want; A soak-unit or a killing unit. Hounds are better for early distractions and taking those hits, but they are not good at killing anything with 3+ and above - At least in my opinion. Compared to the sheer killing force you get with the glass-hammer that is Seekers, they do not compare.

Each have their own strategies and strengths. I like to play risky, which is why I prefer the Seekers. Once you have charged into 5 assault-terminators and erased the unit before they even got to hit, you have a soft spot for those mono-boobies! :)

Personally I would recommend that Slaanesh daemon prince for anti-vehicle - Then you can focus the rest of your army on taking out all the other trash. Mech is usually Daemons biggest weakness, but this is almost a sure-bet way to remove that hinderance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I see your points, @Nordicus

So let's revisit the list: 1498 pts

Skarbrand (225)

DP
Slaanesh
wings
Greater reward (lash)
ML 2 (265)

20 Daemonettes, iconbearer (190)
10 plaguebearers (90)
12 Daemonettes (108)

15 Seekers, icon (190)
15 Seekers, icon (190)
5 Hounds (80)

1 SoulGrinder
Baletorrent
Tzeentch (160)

I still feel i suffer from lacks of shooting, but maybe its me being too CSM in my mind :p
also the 12 daemonettes unit really annoys me. How useful can that unit really be?
 

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How useful can that unit really be?
Well they can be a objective holder or a meatshield distraction for another unit. Personally I would remove the 5 hounds and make it a full 20 (wo)man squad.

I noticed you have no Bloodletters with an icon - If you want Skarbrand to come in from reserve and not scatter, you will need a Khorne unit with a Icon to not make him scatter. He can come in on the seekers or the Daemonettes, but beacuse he's a different daemon alignment he will still scatter 1D6.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
1d6 scatter it's fine for me since bloodletters only let(tters) me down...too many points for too few attacks and too squishy a unit.

About the hounds and daemonettes: yes, i think you might be right. so it would be:

Skarbrand (225)

DP
Slaanesh
wings
Greater reward (lash)
ML 2 (265)

15 Daemonettes, instrument of chaos(140)
10 plaguebearers, instrument of chaos (95)
15 Daemonettes, iconbearer (145)

15 Seekers, icon (190)
15 Seekers (180)
5 Bloodhounds (80)

1 SoulGrinder
Baletorrent
Slaanesh (170)

but i think i am some points over? and whitout any heavy support worth noticing. Anyhow i'll try this list and see where it goes :)
Thanks!

EDITED: in 5 hounds as bait / distraction unit, 32 daemonettes went into 2 units of 15 + icon & 16 + icon
This way i have more troops and more fast threats too
EDIT AGAIN: tweaked the icon / instrument thing, grinder went to slaanesh
 

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I like it. You say you want heavy support but most of your units can kill both vehicles and infantry alike so I don't see it as a big deal

Actually I liked the list with the five hounds. I'd prefer that one, and divide the daemonettes into two units of 16. Personally I'd just do two units of 15 so I only have to buy three boxes of them- it would seem a bit depressing to buy an entire box and only use 2 of 10. Of course, that's still cheaper than the flesh hounds options but at least you get to use everything you buy in that case
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hell, i didn't even thought about the possibility of making two smaller units...
now i've 3 tropps, 2 strong HQ, 3 fast attacks (2 for punching, 1 for distraction) and a heavy support as an assault beast (flamer + cc capabilities will make him a good bruiser)
Also, i know that many units can tore vehicles and monsters apart but..being shot to pieces whitout being able to answer back if not in cc is unnerving :p
 

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being shot to pieces whitout being able to answer back if not in cc is unnerving
Never underestimate the power of 5++ save. I recently had a match against a Tau player who had 59 Firewarriors (!!) at 1750 points and I ran a setup similar to the one you're having there, only with 20 extra daemonettes. I ended up winning, simply because he couldn't get everything down in time. The key to a list like this is just to rush forward with everything at once - Give the opponent so many targets that he has to make some serious priorities and he simply cannot get everything down - Once you're in CC you win. Sure you sacrifice a unit or two, but the sheer panic of seeing the opponent trying to shoot down this many wounds is always fun :D

With that list, you're only problem will be AV14 where only your DP can hurt it. If you're unlucky enough to not roll iron-arm, then just avoid that vehicle. Your daemonettes can glance AV12 and seekers AV13.

Let us know how it goes! Let the glasshammer roll!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
With that list, you're only problem will be AV14 where only your DP can hurt it.
Skarbrand and the grinder can hurt them too ;) (and pretty reliably i daresay)

THE GLASSHAMMER RULLLEEEZZ!!
 

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Always found the prob with Skarbrand is the lack of wings makes him really slow and he is a rather big target. Of course with the nurf to soaring it doesn't hurt much, but of course he wont have jink either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
i think tha skarbrand will take just 1 turn of shooting, before he gets to cc, thanks to deepstriking and icons. it goes on down to: can he whitstand a turn of substantial dakka?
 

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i think tha skarbrand will take just 1 turn of shooting, before he gets to cc, thanks to deepstriking and icons. it goes on down to: can he whitstand a turn of substantial dakka?
Honestly: he can't. But he can soak up most of your enemy army's firepower for a turn, and that's the rest of your army going unmolested, which is no mean feat. And if your opponent doesn't focus on him enough... that's a whole lot of pain he and his rage-bubble-buffed Daemonettes will be dishing out.

Never underestimate the power of 5++ save. I recently had a match against a Tau player who had 59 Firewarriors (!!) at 1750 points and I ran a setup similar to the one you're having there, only with 20 extra daemonettes. I ended up winning, simply because he couldn't get everything down in time. The key to a list like this is just to rush forward with everything at once - Give the opponent so many targets that he has to make some serious priorities and he simply cannot get everything down - Once you're in CC you win. Sure you sacrifice a unit or two, but the sheer panic of seeing the opponent trying to shoot down this many wounds is always fun :D
*Whimpers* reminds me of the game I ran Daemonettes and Seekers galore (infiltrated by Huron) against a Tau army with 40 fire warriors, an Ethereal, and Forge World sensor towers and Tetras. A unit of BS5 twin-linked Fire Warriors firing three shots apiece will kill a unit of daemonettes easily--36 shots rerolling to hit on 2+, wounding on 2+. At the end of Turn 3 I had about 6 models left on the board.
 

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1d6 scatter it's fine for me since bloodletters only let(tters) me down...too many points for too few attacks and too squishy a unit.

About the hounds and daemonettes: yes, i think you might be right. so it would be:

Skarbrand (225)

DP
Slaanesh
wings
Greater reward (lash)
ML 2 (265)

16 Daemonettes, iconbearer (154)
10 plaguebearers (90)
15 Daemonettes, iconbearer (145)

15 Seekers, icon (190)
15 Seekers, icon (190)
5 Bloodhounds (80)

1 SoulGrinder
Baletorrent
Tzeentch (160)

but i think i am some points over? and whitout any heavy support worth noticing. Anyhow i'll try this list and see where it goes :)
Thanks!

EDITED: in 5 hounds as bait / distraction unit, 32 daemonettes went into 2 units of 15 + icon & 16 + icon
This way i have more troops and more fast threats too
1d6 scatter might be fine, but I'm always amused that to get that 1d6 scatter you have to put the DSing unit within 6" of the icon--basically, where you could scatter onto the icon and Mishap. Personally, my lists I do include a block of 15 or so Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood to bring Skarbrand in, but only because I also have Karanak in the unit, Scouting them forward, giving them excellent anti-psyker (and causing perils for enemy psykers withing 12" on any doubles!), for Rage, and because he can shoot forward the movement phase when you want to get the charge and, as a Beast, ignores the -2" penalty for difficult terrain (as long as you can stay in unit coherency with your slower 'letters). So he synergizes well with them, but you've already filled your HQ, so I don't imagine you would want to have to get another detachment just to bring Karanak.

If Skarbrand is the only thing DSing in, 4 icons is honestly kind of a waste of points--you should be guaranteeing that he does come in before your T2 mass charge, not giving him more options of places to enter, at that point. I'd say stick the plaguebearers or a squad of daemonettes in reserve, then drop the icon from those daemonettes and give them (or the PBs) an instrument--giving you two chances to bring in Skarbrand.

For Hounds, to save on purchasing (and because I think the Flesh Hound models look awful, particularly the one with the under-jaw wattle-comb), I buy Fenrisian Wolves instead. Significantly cheaper for the same number of models, that look cooler to boot. They even come with 40mm round bases, unlike some of the Fantasy alternatives you could take for a wolf/hound model.

As for the Hound/Seeker debate... I have to go with Hounds, generally. I love me some seekers, but they are too damn fragile. Unless I have Invisibility or Grimoire giving them a lot more toughness, I can't rely on them getting in. If you get the deployment, then Flesh Hounds can Scout forward--then you give the opponent the first turn, and your Hounds can assault, since though Scouting units aren't allowed to assault on the first turn, that's the first player turn, as the rulebook says unless it specifically refers to game turn, all instances of "turn" apply to player turns, and FAQs (last edition) backed up that infiltrators and scouts can assault if the other player has had a chance to go first. Of course, that's assuming you fielded enough Hounds to survive the first turn of enemy shooting, and you were able to give your opponent the first turn, and they didn't manage to pull everything out of assault range. If you end up with the first turn--oh no, your opponent has to deal with all those hounds at point blank range rather than 18ish" away. You still get a T2 assault after one phase of enemy shooting. Plus I just like Scouting Karanak's unit of 'letters and 2 units of Hounds into the enemy's face to see how they feel about so many units 12-18" away before T1. Yeah, though, Inquisition can cock-block you with servo-skulls.

Seekers get a T2 assault whether you or the enemy get the first turn... and that means that your enemy has a 50% chance of getting 2 shooting phases against the more-fragile of the two choices on offer here. Seekers are an easier First Blood, point-for-point--I'd rather have Flesh Hounds soaking up fire and still not giving up First Blood than Seekers vanishing in a fine mist.

Still, Seekers are a very valid way to go. Moving about 21-24" per turn when they run or assault is glorious, thanks to Fleet and their 6" run boost, and means you have the mobility to harass flanks and keep yourself from being overexposed like little else on the ground in 40k. They are cheap as dirt--just 3 points more than Daemonettes for all those upgrades to killiness and speed, where that's the whole point of Daemonettes in the first place--lovely!

Ahem. Thoughts on the list. Like I said, an instrument on another unit in DS reserve rather than so many icons, for one. Probably drop one Seeker or Daemonette or something to upgrade that Soul Grinder to Slaanesh (faster!) or Nurgle (2+ cover saves!). I'm of a mind that fielding just 5 Flesh Hounds is to scream "First Blood bait! Scouting out right in front of you, here's some nice juicy First Blood bait!" ...so yeah, I might take 15 Hounds and 20 Seekers instead, or something. And do consider the Fenrisian Hound alternative to the Flesh Hound models.

Apart from that... looks like a solid list I'd very much enjoy playing, quite similar to some I've been bandying around and played a few games with (though not nearly so many as I would like). I mean, I might take Be'lakor instead of the Slaaneshi prince to give, say, the Seekers Invisibility...

Also, on the topic of the Prince, do bear in mind that you aren't guaranteed the awesome Iron Arm/Lash combo. It's wonderful when you get it, but there is the subversive, not-so-good-against-vehicles-but-can-always-get-it alternative of Psychic Shriek and Lash. Going pure Telepathy gives you a shot at Shrouding (2+ jink on prince, if you don't mind snapping shots) or Invisibility (a game-winner, that one), plus you get Psychic Shriek and Lash for some excellent enemy infantry clearing capability. So it's up to you: a coin-flip 50% chance at getting Iron Arm (if you are ML3--lower chances at lower mastery levels, like you have), or sacrifice some anti-armor in exchange for heavy anti-infantry and a chance at excellent synergy*. I don't know which I fully prefer myself, honestl; going to play it out more before I decide. I might take multiple Slaaneshi princes in a list, generate Biomancy powers before Rewards, and only give Lash to those that get Iron Arm... but where's the fun in that?

*Yeah yeah, Endurance is some excellent synergy as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
If Skarbrand is the only thing DSing in, 4 icons is honestly kind of a waste of points--you should be guaranteeing that he does come in before your T2 mass charge, not giving him more options of places to enter, at that point. I'd say stick the plaguebearers or a squad of daemonettes in reserve, then drop the icon from those daemonettes and give them (or the PBs) an instrument--giving you two chances to bring in Skarbrand.
Good.

Probably drop one Seeker or Daemonette or something to upgrade that Soul Grinder to Slaanesh (faster!) or Nurgle (2+ cover saves!).
I'd go with slaanesh, so it can get into cc if needed

Ok, then. Time to roll this one.

Thanks guys. Cookies to you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
So, my girlfriend used this list and (also due to a couple of drunk-spawned errors of mine) won 7-4 at the 5th turn.
It was a great game and the list is good. But there are some points where i think it could improve. Plaguebearers are meh (altough they did well against some spawns due to Poison), hounds in such small numbers are not useful and Skharbrand...eh's good, but too unreliable with scatter and reserve rolls.

So dropping plaguebearers and hounds i have 175 pts that i could use for another 15 daemonettes with instrument (140). And 35 spare points: i could swap skarbrand with a twin DP of Slaanesh with lash and Level 2 psion. Or a Winged Nurgle DP with book of true names and psion 1st level (biomancy)
Any other suggestions? Basically i'm looking for another reliable troop and a cc monster / utility MC
 
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