[LanderTaker]

Hi,

I was thinking about a blood angels mech army and wishing some help with the design.

The list is:
HQ: 1 x librarians with blood lance + sanguinius shield. 100 points
3 x tactic squat. 5 space marines each one. Razorback with linked assault canons. 164 points each set.
3 x predator baal. Heavy bolters like sponsor weapons. 145 each one.
3 x vindicator. 145 each one.

So we have:
* 15 tac marines.
* 6 13armour vehicles
* 3 demolisher canons
* 6 asault canons
* 6 heavy bolters at sponsors
* 1 librarian to protect or attack.
* 28 points left

Options I am pondering:
* Another librarian
* 1 less vindicator or predator baal
* get points changing razors for rhinos or removing asault canons from them.
* one or two sanguinary priest...
* change tactic squads for asault squads and some meltas...
* more marines


What do you think?


Ty very much

 

[Katie Drake]

I was initially skeptical when I heard this, but Rifleman Dreadnoughts (that's two twin-linked autocannon arms) are amazingly effective in mechanized Blood Angels armies and they're quite cheap. I'd suggest removing two Vindicators and running Riflemen in their place as these guys are the ultimate light and medium vehicle shredders.

Other than that, if you're going to be taking squads in Razorbacks, go with Assault Squads. Small Tactical Squads are pretty much useless since they can't take any special or heavy weaponry, plus you'll get a discount on the Razorback by exchanging jump packs.

 

[Lord Reevan]

yeah change the 5 man tacticals to 5 man assault squads and you're paying 155 for them and the assault cannon razorback. tidy litle saving there then ain't it

I agree with KAtie with the rifleman dreads as vindicators, even though amazingly powerful now with the fast rule, are serious targets and will get knocked early, usually by something that gets close up from my experience too like melta rhino squads, assautl cannons and maybe the odd lazerback. They can all be taken out from basically the get go with autocannons.

 

[LanderTaker]

Thanks you

I was initially skeptical when I heard this, but Rifleman Dreadnoughts (that's two twin-linked autocannon arms) are amazingly effective in mechanized Blood Angels armies and they're quite cheap. I'd suggest removing two Vindicators and running Riflemen in their place as these guys are the ultimate light and medium vehicle shredders.

Other than that, if you're going to be taking squads in Razorbacks, go with Assault Squads. Small Tactical Squads are pretty much useless since they can't take any special or heavy weaponry, plus you'll get a discount on the Razorback by exchanging jump packs.

Hmmm... I have been doing maths about the 2x linked autocanons... it is good, yes, very good.

Remove all vindicators? hmmm... Aren't they good enough?

yeah change the 5 man tacticals to 5 man assault squads and you're paying 155 for them and the assault cannon razorback. tidy litle saving there then ain't it

I agree with KAtie with the rifleman dreads as vindicators, even though amazingly powerful now with the fast rule, are serious targets and will get knocked early, usually by something that gets close up from my experience too like melta rhino squads, assautl cannons and maybe the odd lazerback. They can all be taken out from basically the get go with autocannons.

I was thinking in use them as, apart from kill a lot, gather fire from other targets of the army.



Thanks you both a lot.


What do you think about the two next posible army planings?:
Option a:
* 3 baals
* 2-3 riflemen
* 3-4 asault squads with meltas and asault canons razorbacks

Option b:
* 3 baals
* 2-3 riflemen
* 3-4 asault squads with jetpacks (deep strike)

(option b should be a complete reserve army so on turn the baals flank, asault squads deep strike and the riflemen appears and sniper something)


About hq and elite in both options, I am not sure about what to do... sanguinary guards instead to something else?

 

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

Vindies are good, but you don't want to drop pie plates near your own assault troops.

not to mention with the Rifleman you get 4 TL AC shots on the move.

solid advice otherwise.

good hunting.

 

[LanderTaker]

Vindies are good, but you don't want to drop pie plates near your own assault troops.

not to mention with the Rifleman you get 4 TL AC shots on the move.

solid advice otherwise.

good hunting.

Thanks youuu

So all this no-vindicators thing is just because asault squads are a better option than tactical squads and so you quit vindis because you do not want to bombard these asault squads?


Yes, the rifleman is very good from armour 8 to 13 (asault canons are better with 13 and 14 and autocanon cannot damage armour 14 vehicles).

Curiosity: Is there any good combination to use in the same army vindicators and baals?? :O

 

[Shwartz]

So all this no-vindicators thing is just because asault squads are a better option than tactical squads and so you quit vindis because you do not want to bombard these asault squads?

Assault squads instead of tacticals since they have more attacks, get cheaper transports and you weren't using tacticals' special weapons anyway.
Vindicators may be fine with assault squads - if they arrive by Razorbacks. So you may throw pie plates when your boys get into position. But, if you use JP and DoA - thery are already there, so Vindicators are too dangerous to use.

Curiosity: Is there any good combination to use in the same army vindicators and baals?? :O

They are fine together - just be sure you don't kill your own assault units.

And, btw, with so many heavy support I'd suggest you to play all-mech - so your army don't arrive piecemeal with your assault units already there and tanks and dreadnoughts stuck in the reserve.

Hope this helps.

 

[LanderTaker]

Assault squads instead of tacticals since they have more attacks, get cheaper transports and you weren't using tacticals' special weapons anyway.
Vindicators may be fine with assault squads - if they arrive by Razorbacks. So you may throw pie plates when your boys get into position. But, if you use JP and DoA - thery are already there, so Vindicators are too dangerous to use.

They are fine together - just be sure you don't kill your own assault units.

And, btw, with so many heavy support I'd suggest you to play all-mech - so your army don't arrive piecemeal with your assault units already there and tanks and dreadnoughts stuck in the reserve.

Hope this helps.

Ty

Some people hates vindis, other loves them..., I guess that all about the list is just to test at game time and play each unit as it should be played

Hmmm... one big question, what I must buy to build a twin linked autocanon dread?? :O

About half army being at reserve, am I wrong or deep striking units enters only with a reserve roll, so it is unlikely only assault squads arrives without vehicles. Am I right?.

But yes, I would like to play a mech list... because of that I was thinking in something like that

* 1 Librarian 100 points
* about 4 Assault squats (each with 1 melta, 1 inferno gun, 1 power sword or fist) onboard of assault canons razorbacks. 195 - 205 each set if I am not wrong from memory.
* 2 riflemen dreads (or vindis)
* 2 to 3 baal predators

If 195 points each assault squad and only 2 baal predators, then you have 90 points left... hmmm

I have placed in the list 4 assault squads with canon razorbacks, but I doubting about if I could use only 17 (6 in two razors and 5 and librarian on last one). Are 17 assault marines with razorbacks too few scoring troops at 1500 points? with these spare points I could use one more vehicle or two.

 

[Shwartz]

Get yourself a Sanguinary Priest or two for your assault squads (he's the best choice to occupy sixth place in the Razorback). Two Furious Charge/Feel No Pain bubbles is just what you need your assault marines to really start shining.
May I be called a heretic, but with so many assault cannons in the list I'd say two priests are better choice than one of Vindicators (or Riflemen).

Btw, except for Vindi and Dread there is also AC+las sponson Predator as heavy support (oh yes, there is another holywar about what's better and what's more BA way about this tank :wink

 

[Lord Reevan]

well a 5 man assault squad, power fist and meltagun in a razorback with upgraded weapon is 190pts. could go with assault cannons to keep the close range style going ad maybe one squad, bare bones assault squad in a lascannon razorback. This unit can hold back, hold any objective in your deployment zone and with a twin linked shot from a lascannon be pretty effective agaisnt enemy tanks too.

the vindicator is good so long as you use it to take out units that aren't near your own units. I field one often enough and I weaken enemy units with it well before the assault then when my guys are too clase I aim it at other units like held back heavy weapons etc. with the fast rule they can do that pretty effectively. just a matter of prioritising targets with them without risking your own guys

 

[LanderTaker]

ty very much!!!!

Get yourself a Sanguinary Priest or two for your assault squads (he's the best choice to occupy sixth place in the Razorback). Two Furious Charge/Feel No Pain bubbles is just what you need your assault marines to really start shining.
May I be called a heretic, but with so many assault cannons in the list I'd say two priests are better choice than one of Vindicators (or Riflemen).

Btw, except for Vindi and Dread there is also AC+las sponson Predator as heavy support (oh yes, there is another holywar about what's better and what's more BA way about this tank :wink

Ok, noted!

Yes, AC/2Las preds are very good. It is better with anti armour than the baal pred with the same point cost. Baal pred can until have hevy bolters sponsors to be more versatile. With point cost.

AC/2L preds are just 15 points more than the rifleman. You are paying 15 for +1 armor and better overall fire capacity. Yes, the pred is fast, but both the pred and the dread can move 15 and shoot all that they have. But... the pred can move up to 45 if it does not fire... which is better to be able to do it than not.

well a 5 man assault squad, power fist and meltagun in a razorback with upgraded weapon is 190pts. could go with assault cannons to keep the close range style going ad maybe one squad, bare bones assault squad in a lascannon razorback. This unit can hold back, hold any objective in your deployment zone and with a twin linked shot from a lascannon be pretty effective agaisnt enemy tanks too.

the vindicator is good so long as you use it to take out units that aren't near your own units. I field one often enough and I weaken enemy units with it well before the assault then when my guys are too clase I aim it at other units like held back heavy weapons etc. with the fast rule they can do that pretty effectively. just a matter of prioritising targets with them without risking your own guys

Hmmm... why a power fist and not a power armour + inferno pistol? Because it is better vs big tyranids?

Yes, with fast vehicles you can do surprising moves... concentrate fire easier... etc.








I have then another version of list.
* librarian: 100
* 2 x sanguinary priest: 2 x 50 = 100
* 3 x assault squad. Each one with 1 powerfist + 1 meltagun + assault canon razorback. 190 x 3 = 570.
* 3 x predator baal + heavy bolter sponsors. 145 X 3 = 435
* 2 x AC/2LAS Preds, 135 x 2 = 270

Total: 1475

I have seen that if you removes the heavy bolter sponsors and something more, you can place another predator. Or if you remove the sponsors and change all ac/2las preds to riflemen...

What do you think??? Too few marines?

About vindicators, I will try it in some games to see its behavior.

 

[Lord Reevan]

powerfist mainly because the current standard in gaming is mechanized and power weapons do nothing against them. fists double your str so you're good for assaulting them, if an IC attacks that squad there's a good chance that the fist can instant kill him too.

 

[Shwartz]

* librarian: 100
* 2 x sanguinary priest: 2 x 50 = 100
* 3 x assault squad. Each one with 1 powerfist + 1 meltagun + assault canon razorback. 190 x 3 = 570.
* 3 x predator baal + heavy bolter sponsors. 145 X 3 = 435
* 2 x AC/2LAS Preds, 135 x 2 = 270

Total: 1475

Maybe there are some lists like this one around, but I'd still say it's lovely and is exactly what tank-hevay BA list should look at this point limit.

Thoughts:
1) You've got six (!) Twin-Linked Assault Cannons and 2 ac/las preds. May I be called a heretic, but if you had to kill tanks with this many powerfists, something has gone completely wrong. Also, if you save some on powerfists, you may take some Infernus pistols, giving you a lot of "melta" shots from the assault distance.

2) What powers are you planning for the librarian? If there is Sanguine Sword between them, one of the squads have its high-strength CC attacks.

3) I'd suggest you to dedicate one squad to horde duty: PW + flamer + hand flamer would bring someone much pain. Enough antitank around the list already.

4) There are issues around this, but still I think Priests should carry power weapons. Yes, they are 1-wound IC without Invul save, but with FC and PW they have a good chanse to swing and kill a couple of MEQ before they are singled out, paying back some of the points and improving your total assault result (every wound is important with only six guys attacking). And with only FC - orks would still be killed, but something more serious - depends on luck.

5) If you have 5 spare points, take one thunder hammer for the sake of lowering some tough MC's initiative.

Actually, all or my comments are just hair-splitting, the list's great. Best of luck.

 

[LanderTaker]

Thanks you

powerfist mainly because the current standard in gaming is mechanized and power weapons do nothing against them. fists double your str so you're good for assaulting them, if an IC attacks that squad there's a good chance that the fist can instant kill him too.

Okkk. But I was thinking about power fist vs power weapon + inferno pistol.

Maybe there are some lists like this one around, but I'd still say it's lovely and is exactly what tank-hevay BA list should look at this point limit.

Thoughts:
1) You've got six (!) Twin-Linked Assault Cannons and 2 ac/las preds. May I be called a heretic, but if you had to kill tanks with this many powerfists, something has gone completely wrong. Also, if you save some on powerfists, you may take some Infernus pistols, giving you a lot of "melta" shots from the assault distance.

2) What powers are you planning for the librarian? If there is Sanguine Sword between them, one of the squads have its high-strength CC attacks.

3) I'd suggest you to dedicate one squad to horde duty: PW + flamer + hand flamer would bring someone much pain. Enough antitank around the list already.

4) There are issues around this, but still I think Priests should carry power weapons. Yes, they are 1-wound IC without Invul save, but with FC and PW they have a good chanse to swing and kill a couple of MEQ before they are singled out, paying back some of the points and improving your total assault result (every wound is important with only six guys attacking). And with only FC - orks would still be killed, but something more serious - depends on luck.

5) If you have 5 spare points, take one thunder hammer for the sake of lowering some tough MC's initiative.

Actually, all or my comments are just hair-splitting, the list's great. Best of luck.

Im starting to feel very proud!! Thanks you very much!!

1) Hmmm... are you saying about removing power fists for something else?
you have 25 spare points. You can get more from heavy bolter sponsors, by example.

With current configuration, the 6 x linked assault canons + 6 x heavy bolters can kill 26 orks (18 by linked assault canons, 8 by heavy bolter), or 28 toughness 3 light infantry per turn (18 by linked assault canons, 10 by the heavy bolters). You kill 2.66 orks/turn or 3.33 light infantry/turn bu each one, which is about 10-12% of the total.

2) Shield is one, because (if I am not wrong) can be used from inside the razorback and use it to protect marines and other vehicles. the other option.... maybe these power to block low leadership horde units... maybe the strenght 10 one... hmmm

3) It is a good idea. Waht is the usual amount of power needed to counter a horde? Because if you concentrate just only 6xheavy bolets + 6x linked assault canons you can kill 26 to 28 light troops (middle).

4) 5) Good facts. More points for a better result.

Like writen earlier, there are 25 spare points and some aditionals could be recovered from a heavy bolter sponsor, a power fists (changing it for something else).

With these points you can upgrade powerfists to thunder hammers, pick some aditional power weapons and/or buy some vehicle upgrades like bulldozers. Maybe convert the librarian to epistolary.





hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... I will write one version or two of the army soon...

 

[Lord Reevan]

Infernus pistols are good but I find they are much too expensive for the 1-2 shots in the game you'd get off with them. Personal taste really if you'd prefer to have infernus pistol and power weapon then go ahead. Not a bad option in all honesty.

the spare 25 pts I'd use to upgrade 2 fists to hammers and then maybe extra armour on another vehicle??

 

[Shwartz]

Like writen earlier, there are 25 spare points and some aditionals could be recovered from a heavy bolter sponsor, a power fists (changing it for something else).

With these points you can upgrade powerfists to thunder hammers, pick some aditional power weapons and/or buy some vehicle upgrades like bulldozers. Maybe convert the librarian to epistolary.

Actually, I didn't mean dropping special CC weapon completely. 5-men squads need some wounds with no armor save.
I've just meant "downgrading" PF to PW, saving some points. If you would take S10 Libby power, you may just well swap 2 powerfists to power weapons, buy Infernus pistol and upgrade remaining PF to Thunder hammer for the freed points.

Also I don't recommend you to drop sponsons from Baals. Yes, there is another holywar about it, but IMHO 12" move may seem nice, but Baal with sponsons unleashes hell when it shoots, and Baal with only basic turret, well, it kills 3 or 4 orks per turn and moves fast. Cool, yes, but not cool enough.

 

[Lord Reevan]

Also I don't recommend you to drop sponsons from Baals. Yes, there is another holywar about it, but IMHO 12" move may seem nice, but Baal with sponsons unleashes hell when it shoots, and Baal with only basic turret, well, it kills 3 or 4 orks per turn and moves fast. Cool, yes, but not cool enough

It's all about how it's played, if it's meant to run up and keep pace with the other fast things in the army then no sponsons would be good, if it's meant to hold back a little and take out as many enemies as possible then sponsons work...

 

[Shwartz]

It's all about how it's played, if it's meant to run up and keep pace with the other fast things in the army then no sponsons would be good, if it's meant to hold back a little and take out as many enemies as possible then sponsons work...

Definitely it's up to playstyle. But there was IMHO in my phrase somewhere and I'm just a big fan of 10-shots-per-turn-tank. And scout move allows Baal to be at the position and killing thing already (while the rest of the army is fast moving there).

 

[Lord Reevan]

oh yeah It's all up to the others opinion I was just explaining the other side of it . but you make a very good point The scout move you wouldn't really need to move the tank the full 12". if you have the points the go for it.

 

[LanderTaker]

Infernus pistols are good but I find they are much too expensive for the 1-2 shots in the game you'd get off with them. Personal taste really if you'd prefer to have infernus pistol and power weapon then go ahead. Not a bad option in all honesty.

the spare 25 pts I'd use to upgrade 2 fists to hammers and then maybe extra armour on another vehicle??

Hmmmm... I am not convinced about extra armor upgrade. Too expensive for what it does. I think that usually people tends to concentrate fire so your vehicle now will be ok and a second after it will be gone...

I would prefer 3 bulldozers

Actually, I didn't mean dropping special CC weapon completely. 5-men squads need some wounds with no armor save.
I've just meant "downgrading" PF to PW, saving some points. If you would take S10 Libby power, you may just well swap 2 powerfists to power weapons, buy Infernus pistol and upgrade remaining PF to Thunder hammer for the freed points.

Also I don't recommend you to drop sponsons from Baals. Yes, there is another holywar about it, but IMHO 12" move may seem nice, but Baal with sponsons unleashes hell when it shoots, and Baal with only basic turret, well, it kills 3 or 4 orks per turn and moves fast. Cool, yes, but not cool enough.

how many power weapons are a good quantity? If you replace a pf for a pw and inferno, you are using more points so I am guessing that you are saying about using only the power weapon or the inferno, but not both. Am I right?

The heavy bolter sponsors are (middle) like 1.38 marine wounds/turn or 2'96 ork wounds/turn. hmmmm

So... the list now have:
25 spare points + 3 powerfists

--> 20 spare points + 2 powerfists + thunder hammer

or --> 40 spare points + 2 power weapons or inferno pistol + thunder hammer

with these points you can place 2 energy weapons on the sanguinary priesteses and you have 10 spare points so you are able to upgrade a power weapon/inferno pistol again to a power fist or buy 2 bulldozers (by example).

It's all about how it's played, if it's meant to run up and keep pace with the other fast things in the army then no sponsons would be good, if it's meant to hold back a little and take out as many enemies as possible then sponsons work...

hmmm... I think that this is only important in the first turn. The rest of turns you should be able to maintaing the "move 15 away and shoot all to the incoming enemy while you fly like a fly". Enemy fast vehicles armies are diferent, thought

Definitely it's up to playstyle. But there was IMHO in my phrase somewhere and I'm just a big fan of 10-shots-per-turn-tank. And scout move allows Baal to be at the position and killing thing already (while the rest of the army is fast moving there).

oh yeah It's all up to the others opinion I was just explaining the other side of it . but you make a very good point The scout move you wouldn't really need to move the tank the full 12". if you have the points the go for it.

It is true, 10 attacks' dice rollz over a fast vehicle should scares anybody