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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
CSM Army List
HQ
Dark Apostle - 105
Elites
Hellbrute w/reaper autocannon + power fist- 110
Troops-
10x CSM w/ 2xplasma, Rhino- 205
10x CSM w/ 2xplasma, Rhino- 205
20x Cultists- 110
Fast Attack-
4x Chaos Spawn w/ MoN- 144
Heavy Support
Predator w/ 2x Heavy Bolter warpflame - 120

So any advice (aside from dropping the Apostle) would be appreciated atm i have the DA, CSM squads, 1 rhino and the cultists bought and painted. As a new player this looks fairly solid for friendly games, I just don't want to buy stuff That will be useless later :) ty in advance.
 

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from faq's the helbrute w/ TL reaper cannon is just 105 pts (the base cost of the helbrute is 100, not 105)
instead of predator i suggest 5 havocs with 4 autocannons, much more dakka, much easyer to hide in cover.
the rest seems good for friendly games, but i think that csm units should have meltaguns, since you have no Str 8+ weapons and you totally lack true antitank.
with points spared from the helbrute and the dropped plasmaguns, you can take a MoTzeentch for the apostle, giving him a much needed 3++
cheers and GLORY TO CHAOS!!
 

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A potenshall big question to ask first is what armies do you play against? Also are you playing vs competative people or casual or friends?
Though tbh neffys advice seems pretty solid.
Also the Dark Apostle could no doubt be used as a Chaos Lord, he would just look like a slighty more in to his books and worshipping his gods, rather than the traditional warlord.
And before mossy gets here... Belakor...
 

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^ :laugh:

I think you must have paid twice for those heavy bolters sponsons on the predator. An autocannon pred with heavy bolters sponsons is 95 points. If you're going the dakka predator route you should take a havoc launcher and combi bolter too. Maybe warp flame gargoyles if you like (all of that is still cheaper than the predator you listed)

I agree with those saying an anti tank choice would be better though. Five havocs with four autocannons would be good. If you want a predator you could take all lascannons or for slightly cheaper an autocannon with lascannon sponsons

I'd do something a bit different with the troops. Instead of two units of ten in rhinos you could maybe get away with three smaller units in rhinos. I'd always try to find points for the havoc launcher on those too. One of the three units could then be a havoc squad so you could still have a pair of plasma guns on that unit

Or how about this;

5 CSM with plasma gun, rhino with havoc launcher 137
5 CSM with plasma gun, rhino with havoc launcher 137
5 Havocs with two melta guns, rhino 130

Which comes to less than the two CSM units. The original CSM units have (in total) two combi bolters, 16 bolters and 4 plasma guns. The alternative has 3 combi bolters, 2 havoc launchers, 11 bolters, 2 plasma guns and 2 melta guns. Seems like an improvement for slightly fewer points
 

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squire has a nice view on things. i second his toughts
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think you must have paid twice for those heavy bolters sponsons on the predator.
Yep I did, now I can put more guns on it.

Revised CSM Army List
HQ
Chaos Lo- *cough*Dark Apostle w/ Bike, Power Fist, SoC- 125

Elites
Hellbrute w/Missile launcher, Plasma Cannon- 120

Troops-
5x CSM w/ Melta, combi-weapon (champ), Rhino w/Havoc Launcher- 142
5x CSM w/ Plasma, combi-weapon (champ), Rhino w/Havoc Launcher - 147
20x Cultists- 110

Fast Attack-
3xChaos Spawn w/ MoN- 108

Heavy Support-
Chaos Vindicator w/ Demonic Possession- 135
Chaos Predator w/ Heavy bolter sponsons, havoc launcher, combi-bolter- 112

Total- 999
I wanted a demon possessed vindicator from the start :). Havocs might be great platforms, possibly better than the predator, but some part of me knows that fire-power mounted on a tank is WAY cooler than man carried shooting (even if it is less efficient). I put combi-weapons on the champs because firing one special and a bolter out of my rhino seemed... bleh.

Without the DA I don't know what to do with his erstwhile bodyguards, the cultists, without the DA they are one of two thing that says 'Word Bearers' so I don't want to just drop them. Thank for the advice, and any further pointers would be much appreciated.
 

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And before mossy gets here... Belakor...
have you a minute to talk about our lord and shrouder, Be'Lakor?
*sniff*

As if I'd recommend Be'lakor in a 1k point list.



...damnitnowyou'vegotmethinkingaboutit


Ahem.

I realize you're probably including the Helbrute because you have the mini (from Dark Vengeance or something), but... I'd rather have another Predator or Vindi or a squad of Havocs. No Crazed results there.

You could take 10 Cultists as a handy back-field objective holder for dirt cheap. It'd free up points for another Spawn, certainly.
 

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Revised CSM Army List
HQ
Chaos Lo- *cough*Dark Apostle w/ Bike, Power Fist, SoC- 125
Pretty good although he needs a lightning claw to round him out. Initiative 5 ap3 with shred is wonderful for killing marines and winning challenges.

Elites
Hellbrute w/Missile launcher, Plasma Cannon- 120
I dig the theme of small blasts. Plasma blast + krak missile is pretty good vs Marines. However you're looking pretty bad vs any sort of armor. Your army is a bit static so I'd keep a powerfist on this guy and walk him down the field. It will help take pressure of your melta CSM and Spawn. Plasma cannon, powerfist and heavy flamer would be great for killing infantry, and the powerfist would still allow you to tank hunt. My personal favorite is multi-melta + p.fist and heavy flamer. It draws fire well because it is a threat to absolutely everything. It is also pretty happy about any of the crazed results.

Troops-
5x CSM w/ Melta, combi-weapon (champ), Rhino w/Havoc Launcher- 142
This unit is going to want to be close to the enemy to use its melta. I'd do 3 things. Drop the combi-melta on the champ for melta bombs, they're 5pts cheaper and can be used all game to roughly the same effect. They also give the unit a response to walkers and MCs if assaulted. Swap out all the bolters for close combat weapons. And, swap the havoc launcher for a dirge caster. This gives you a unit with 2 clear purposes: killing armor and charging weak backfield units. The dirge caster will also help your spawn in combat. This comes out to 130pts.

5x CSM w/ Plasma, combi-weapon (champ), Rhino w/Havoc Launcher - 147
I'd drop the combi-plasma. 10pts for 1 1/3 plasma hits is just not worth it to me. This makes the unit 137pts.

20x Cultists- 110
There's no real reason to buff up the numbers on a Cultist unit unless you're using it as ablative wounds for a fearless character. If you want objective campers, just use 10 Cultists. 50pts.

Fast Attack-
3xChaos Spawn w/ MoN- 108
I've learned that spawn seem to do best as a full unit of 5. You'll always lose a few on your way into combat. 5xChaos Spawn w/ MoN - 180

Heavy Support-
Chaos Vindicator w/ Demonic Possession- 135
Love it.

Chaos Predator w/ Heavy bolter sponsons, havoc launcher, combi-bolter- 112
I find the combi-bolter to be excessive. Since you can't move and fire all your weapons, its 24" range means then enemy has to purposely walk into you. It still has dakka aplenty without it :).

Total- 999
After playing around with it, this is what I came up with. The lord is a lot more resilient with T6, a larger retinue and the option for i5 ap3 attacks (which reduce the amount of attacks coming at him vs enemies with lower initiative). T6 should also help him swing his power fist more often. It also gives you some fun modeling opportunities to make a daemonicly possessed and therefore more resilient apostle.

Revised CSM Army List
HQ
Chaos Lo- *cough*Dark Apostle w/ nurgle, Bike, Power Fist, lightning claw, SoC, blight grenades - 170

Elites
Hellbrute w/Missile launcher, Plasma Cannon - 120

Troops
5x CSM w/ Melta, bolt pistols, ccws, champ w/ melta bombs, Rhino w/dirge caster - 130

5x CSM w/ Plasma, bolters, bolt pistols, champ w/ melta bombs, Rhino w/Havoc Launcher - 142

10x Cultists - 50

Fast Attack-
4xChaos Spawn w/ MoN - 144

Heavy Support-
Chaos Vindicator w/ Demonic Possession - 135

Chaos Predator w/ Heavy bolter sponsons, havoc launcher - 107
 

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I really like the list. Honestly, I'd have kept the combi bolter on the dakka pred because it only needs to kill a single hormagaunt, guardsman or ork to pay for itself and those are the kinds of units you'll target. 24" range for a re-rollable bolter shot will do that. Then again, whether you have it or not it isn't going to chance the course of a game so it isn't worth worrying about

The dread... I've tried to find an excuse to take one myself because I want one of those FW Alpha Legion dreads but I couldn't find a role that justified its points against other units. One build that appealed was the dual autocannon, havoc launcher and fist. I'd probably just take a combi bolter for the fist because it's already getting a bit expensive at this point but the build seems to have uses. The shooting weapons do a similar job to a dakka predator but the TL autocannon and fist makes it threatening to vehicles if they get too close

Having said that... I can't remember how many weapons a walker can shoot. If it's two max then forget the combi bolter.

I'd keep the fist in any case. Without the fist dreads are outperformed by a bunch of units, with the fist it has at least one purpose a predator or havoc squad don't have
 

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because I want one of those FW Alpha Legion dreads
Oh, my knees go weak at the thought. It's definitely up there in my top 3 or so FW units I want to buy (along with... a Sicaran and maybe a Hellblade?) and compulsively need to restrain myself from chasing after...

If it's two max then forget the combi bolter.
Yup.
 

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Apologies for going off topic

Oh, my knees go weak at the thought. It's definitely up there in my top 3 or so FW units I want to buy (along with... a Sicaran and maybe a Hellblade?) and compulsively need to restrain myself from chasing after...
I love that dread. It's not daemonic at all so it fits my AL theme nicely, and it's (visually) the most Alpha Legion unit that I know of. I'm going to stick those AL rhino doors on both rhinos, I've got the metal shoulder pads on all of my CSMs (see avatar)... but I'd love something else.

If you remember my list I'm working on I've recently been leaning towards dropping Be'lakor for a vindicator, dakka pred and auto/las pred. The idea is the MoK termies in land raiders hit so hard I could improve the list by having more units on the table for objective grabbing and ranged firepower. It also means I have nothing daemonic which I like for fluff reasons.

Termie c.fist/claw MoK lord
4 MoK terms in land raider
5 MoK terms in land raider
5 CSM in rhino
5 CSM in rhino
3 Bikes (meltas)
3 Bikes (flamers)
Vindicator
Dakka pred
Auto/las pred

... I keep considering whether I can drop either the dakka pred for some kind of dakka dread or the auto/las pred for an anti tank dread. It's infuriating that the reduction in firepower just isn't made up for by CC ability with a poxy two attacks

I want to believe in the chaos dread, but I can't :(
 

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Well how about using the hell cult data slate.
Fearless cultists and decent save for the brute. I would keep a fist though.
I really don't want to field cultists and it's putting more points into making the dread viable when equivalent better vehicles are viable as they are

I almost convinced myself to drop the dakka pred for a dread with twin autocannon and missile launcher, which would have less dakka but utility against vehicles; can move and shoot at full BS; easier to get cover for; CC would sometimes be a good option etc. I couldn't con myself though. The anti infantry firepower is nowhere near as good, I've already got plenty of anti armour and the dreadnought isn't even cheaper.

I think a chaos dread needs a fist to justify its inclusion at all. A havoc launcher might look ugly (I don't know) but it's good way to make a dakka dread with maybe twin heavy bolters or autocannons so it has decent firepower but keeps the fist. What it really needs is the three attacks it used to have
 

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What it really needs is the three attacks it used to have
definitely. hell, our spikes must be useful to something! Spikey pointy crap.
 

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What it really needs is the three attacks it used to have
This is why I feel the heavy flamer is so necessary. I once had a Helbrute tied up in combat for 4 rounds vs a 5 man IG command squad, and it didn't even roll that bad! 5 guardsmen should not be an effective tarpit...

I think one of the gems of IA13 is Blood Slaughterers. Attacks galore, front av 13, 5++, fleet, and the list goes on... for only 30pts more than a Helbrute! Yeah it can't really shoot and it has to move at the closest enemy unit but it has all the good attributes of an assault walker while being cheaper than a soul grinder. I would probably always take it with the harpoon as it gives you a potential 3rd roll on your charge distance and helps overcome your movement limitations a bit. That is, if your group plays with forgeworld. I just recently cracked because of IA13.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The list as it currently stands

HQ
Chaos Lo- *cough*Dark Apostle w/ Bike, P.Fist, LC, SoC, Boon of Mutation- 160

Elites
Hellbrute w/Missile launcher, Plasma Cannon- 120

Troops-
5x CSM w/ Boltguns swapped for CC weapons, Melta, melta bombs (champ), Rhino w/Dirge Caster- 130
5x CSM w/ Plasma, melta bombs (champ), Rhino w/Havoc Launcher - 142
10x Cultists- 50

Fast Attack-
4xChaos Spawn w/ MoN- 144

Heavy Support-
Chaos Vindicator w/ Demonic Possession- 135
Chaos Predator w/ Heavy bolter sponsons, havoc launcher, warpflame gargoyles, combi-bolter -117
Total- 998


The lord is a lot more resilient with T6
He might be but while I can justify putting my DA in as lord (there is no option for a bike) I don't really want to mark him for lore reasons. Similar story with the boon and hellbrute/predator load outs, I don't doubt they could be more efficient/better set-ups but I just think they are really cool looking and might get me something ridiculous on the gaming board :) Still I think it looks pretty good so thank you all for your great help and advice!

P.S I have been paying for guns on the cultists this whole time :)
 

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Good on you for sticking to your theme. I personally love gift of mutation, always loading up on it in casual games.

I think you're 5pts shy on the predator. Otherwise, looks good!
 
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