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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone, first time poster here at heresy. So I'll start off by saying, isn't our current codex rubbish? (no replies necessary for that one lol). Its taken me forever to find an army that can both play well and look cool/remain fluffy.
Anyway I'm posting two lists of 1000pts and 1500pts Iron Warriors and I'm looking for any and all comments about how to improve them. Although I'm also trying to remain relatively fluffy so it would be great to here opinions on that aswell. Thanks :)

(Total 994 pts) 1000pts Iron Warriors (25 models) (4 Vehicles)

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer Xpts

TROOPS
9 Khorne Berserkers, Rhino, Daemonic Possession, 244pts

10 CSM, Champion, Power Fist, IOCG, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Twin-linked Bolter, 265pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 CSM Havocs, IOCG, Missile Launcher x1, Autocannon x1, Rhino, Havoc Launcher, 175pts

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts


(Total 1489) 1500pts Iron Warriors (39 models) (6 vehicles)

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer Xpts

ELITES
Dreadnought, Twin-Linked Lascannon, CCW, Heavy Flamer, 130pts

TROOPS
9 Khorne Berserkers, Rhino, Daemonic Possession, 244pts

10 CSM, Champion, Power Fist, IOCG, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Twin-Linked Bolter, 265pts

10 CSM, Champion, Power Fist, IOCG, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Twin-Linked Bolter, 265pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
9 CSM Havocs, IOCG, Missile Launcher x2, Autocannon x2, Rhino, Havoc Launcher 275pts

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts
 

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I think it's in your interest to split the Havocs into a 4/5? Don't wanna have force of your HS on 1 spot.

But saying that i'd really take careful consideration into using the single vindicator. Big target, really unpopular in the mind of your opponent, will be targeted.

I'll point you in the way of Obliterators; My 2nd favourite HS Unit; They are really really good at what you need them to do; So take a look at those, and see what you think.
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General Rule for Rhino-Upgrades:
Rhino ALWAYS takes EA; Not DP.
Land Raiders/Vindicators ALWAYS take DP; Not EA.
________________________________________________

Dreadnoughts; I hate to say it. But they are very difficult to use effectively; The special ability 'Frenzy', Is such a Huge/Fundamental Flaw, that they are such risky units- That end up blowing your own tanks up.
________________________________________________

I'd like to make a list of my own quickly; and ask you to look quickly.

HQ-
Daemon Prince - 155
Wings/Warptime

Greater Daemon - 100

Khorne Berserkers - 258
Champion; Powerfist
Rhino; EA

Plague Marines - 271
Champion; Powerfist. 2 Meltagun
Rhino; EA

Plague Marines - 271
Champion; Powerfist. 2 Meltagun
Rhino; EA

Vindicator - 145
Daemonic Possession

Vindicator - 145
Daemonic Possession

2 Obliterators - 150

Total 1495
___________________________

There will be a few IW lists here; Try talking to a guy called 'Mercer'; I invite you to look at my Khorne Compendium (Link in sig) for ideas; And in general to browse these forums.

Going to finish by saying; Welcome to Heresy - And that the Chaos Codex isn't bad; It's taken a shunting this edition, But it's still good.

ROT out. :wild:
 

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(Total 994 pts) 1000pts Iron Warriors (25 models) (4 Vehicles)

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer Xpts

Good model, love his rules, but not to fluff correct IMO. Also only has a 3+/5+. Probably could take a Khorne Lord with 2+/5+ for the same price. He also won't chain axe your own guys, but just my opinion.

TROOPS
9 Khorne Berserkers, Rhino, Daemonic Possession, 244pts

Good. Surprised to see no skull champion. Again, not particularly fluff correct, but your choice!

10 CSM, Champion, Power Fist, IOCG, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Twin-linked Bolter, 265pts

Better fluff wise. Never been a fan of IOCG, for me they are a waste of points. But just my opinion again.

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 CSM Havocs, IOCG, Missile Launcher x1, Autocannon x1, Rhino, Havoc Launcher, 175pts

My opinion is the same of Havocs as it is of Devastators for SM; waste of points. Obviously, there are pros and cons, but generally I would take a LR over these guys. Almost the same firepower and can carry troops 12 inches into enemy lines without taking a dent. But, on the flip side, 1 lucky lascannon shot could kill it. But, I would normally take that risk.

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts

Very nice. If you drop the Havocs for a LR, this will attract a lot less attention to itself. Cheap, and fits the IW fluff well as it's basically a siege tank.

(Total 1489) 1500pts Iron Warriors (39 models) (6 vehicles)

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer Xpts

See earlier comment

ELITES
Dreadnought, Twin-Linked Lascannon, CCW, Heavy Flamer, 130pts

I have never run one of these in a list, and have never had a desire to. As ROT said, they are very variable and the "Frenzy" rule makes them just as likely to kill you beloved men and tanks as your enemies. Would drop it and take some terminators, much better use of points. Plus, they can run around in the LR, if you chose to take it instead of your havocs.

TROOPS
9 Khorne Berserkers, Rhino, Daemonic Possession, 244pts

Same as before, except they make more sense in this list as it feels like it needs some decent CC guys.

10 CSM, Champion, Power Fist, IOCG, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Twin-Linked Bolter, 265pts

See previous comments.

10 CSM, Champion, Power Fist, IOCG, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Rhino, Twin-Linked Bolter, 265pts

See previous comments.

HEAVY SUPPORT
9 CSM Havocs, IOCG, Missile Launcher x2, Autocannon x2, Rhino, Havoc Launcher 275pts

See previous comments.

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts

See previous comments.
So those are my opinions, take them or leave them as you will, but I hope I have been helpful.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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I like ROT's analysis. Plague marine rules work very well for Iron Warriors. Though I don't like the idea of sacrificing a powerfist model for a greater daemon. I'd take away the greater daemon entirely and buffen up your squads and your daemon prince. In this situation I'd use a daemon prince with wings, MoS and a lash. Bringing a unit in one at a time and destroying your enemy piece meal.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for all the responses so far. So lets see what we have :) .

I really like the idea of spiltting the havocs and creating seperate teams, and creating different targets. However, I would need an extra rhino and icon because I like the squads to have one Icon Bearer models with binoculars like a spotter, while each heavy weapon has a man for loading the gun keeping ammo (aka extra wound lol) Also what weapons loadout do you think would be best?

For the Berzerker Rhino, good call on the EA over DP, I was also thinking of adding a combi-flamer to it with the points I have saved/have spare. Is this a good idea?

Obviously Kharn and the berzerkers go together in the EA/DP rhino and they are relatively fluffy as the IW have been known to use them during breaches kind of like storm troopers. The actual composition of the squad is open to debate as I think plasma pistols might be an idea to open any troop carriers and I don't want a skull champion if I have Kharn.

I would also like to hear some opinions on Kharn for this list. The problem is I can't really think of a better HQ. Kharn brings so much to the table, Int 6, Str 6, 7 attacks on the charge and basically has a better powerfist vs vehicles. And no I don't want a daemon prince that would be very unfluffy IMO

As for your list ROT I'm guessing thats for yourself and not me? If its for me its way off what I'm looking for. If its for you then I would drop the greater daemon as they are useless in my experience and far too random and slow. Also you lose points from me for lack of any kind of theme. Finally, seriously what is with the two melta squads everywhere I'm so sick of people thinking you cant use x2 plasma or melta/flamer (yes one of each I said it!!!) But thats not your fault :) .

As for Dues, I like the idea of using terminators, but I hate the Land Raider with a passion no MS and I sweat every shot it takes. Maybe swap the Dreadnought for a Termicide squad? Although I like my fluffy Dreadnought who has been very lucky with me over all my games. Also interpret the rules people, dreanoughts don't turn around and shoot ... LOS is from their guns 45 degrees facing forward so just dont put anything in front of them.

Anyway keep the comments coming everyone as they are all really helpful thnx :grin:
 

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So I'll start off by saying, isn't our current codex rubbish? (no replies necessary for that one lol).
Yes. Yes it is.

And your list might need some work if it's going to storm into a tournament, guns blazing.

Havocs are awful, generic chaos marines are awful.

Berzerkers:
NEED THAT CHAMP WITH FIST. EVERY GAME. You are WASTING the cost of an ENTIRE squad of zerks if you dont buy that fist. Kharn is GOING to die after a single round of combat because he gets seperated from the squad and fisted to death, whereas the squad leader with the fist is a four swing ws5 s9 monster rape machine that has NINE WOUNDS HE DOESNT NEED TAGGING ALONG. I -cannot- stress how inopportune it is for you to not do that, and the fluff is Kharn gave one of the dbags following him around a fist so he can splatter big beasties.

Chaos Dreadnoughts:
And the chaos dreadnought you may want to return, that thing is a liability, one third of the turns in the game it dicks you in some awful way, by either shooting you in the face or running out of cover, THEN shooting you in the face. Etc.

I'd recommend dumping it, the havocs, and the ten man squad and invest in two oblits and a solid plague marine squad, you get all the gunfire, none of the retard and you don't EVER die once you get on a point. This might aid you in holding objectives.


There this might be easier to read than two frothing, scathing paragraphs.
 

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Ok, I'm going to say it;

Lord your negativity is not helping anyone. I know from being shouted at myself, that being pessimistic isn't helping anyone.

Lose the attitude, and accept that our Codex took a blow as of last edition.
________________________________________________

And to OP, the list i showed was a generic format for an Iron Warriors list; they tend to follow that rough pattern.

IW are shown to have an extensive use of Greater Daemons, Vindicators and Obliterators inparticular.

The Plague Marines and Khorne Berserkers where introduced at my own personal idea of good troops, From my experience; Because I'm not a fan of Factory-CSM and sway much further towards Cults.

Apologies the list wasn't as helpful as planned; Was just trying to show you what the usual set-up for IW is. But It's whatever floats your boat really! Not my place to tell you that you have to do something :)

Hope this helps.

ROT out :wild:
 

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Ok, I'm going to say it;

Lord your negativity is not helping anyone. I know from being shouted at myself, that being pessimistic isn't helping anyone.

Lose the attitude, and accept that our Codex took a blow as of last edition
Okay here's what I saw the top post as:
"Competitive Chaos Marine Army"
I thought, "Okay cool. Let's make this competitive."

Then I started correcting mistakes that will cost him in tournaments. My only error was that I made my usual corrections into two large paragraphs. Say what you will about my attitude, but my advice is solid for the purposes of making lists better.

Plus my hope is that with such obliteration of lists, people will stop posting bad things followed by "Comments for a tourney-level list?" because it will -always- be the same comments.

Also you should read my comments on fluff lists, I find them adorable and I make note of it, even trying to help them find fluffier ways to run them(Such as alpha legion=more chosen) But when you ask for competitive help, expect not to be personally attacked, but DO expect to have a harsher bottom line.
 

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But i don't see how you saying-

'Yeah forget that unit, it's shit. So is that unit. Wait all units are shit.'

-Is helpful.

I appreciate that you are a good player, speaking from experience; But just lighten up abit.
 

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As for Dues, I like the idea of using terminators, but I hate the Land Raider with a passion no MS and I sweat every shot it takes. Maybe swap the Dreadnought for a Termicide squad? Although I like my fluffy Dreadnought who has been very lucky with me over all my games. Also interpret the rules people, dreanoughts don't turn around and shoot ... LOS is from their guns 45 degrees facing forward so just dont put anything in front of them.
Alright, for the LR, I understand your point of view of dislike. I would still try and dissuade you from the havocs, as I have never had a good experience with them and I found they are generally a waste of points. In the 1k list, (in the light of your preferences) I would still drop the havocs, but take a second vindicator and spend the extra points on a skull champion and a power weapon/fist for him if you have the points. In the 1.5k list, I'd drop the havocs for, again, another vindicator and a couple of obliterators. Still sticking to the fluff, and then your opponent will have to chose between splitting their fire to destroy the vindicators, which makes them more likely to survive, or focus of one, giving the other a free reign.

In all honesty, my dislike of the dreadnoughts are purely because I've heard bad stories about them, and never had the guts to include them in my army. But I would still go with the termicide squad as; 1. It takes one lascannon shot to put your dreadnought out of commission, but 5 to kill a termie squad. 2. They have more versatility, they have more attacks in CC, and can take special equipment such as chainfists and combi-weapons so more shots.

Once again, all my opinion.
 

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Halloween Town
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With the dreadnought I'd run missle launcher and autocannon, more weapons like IW would like and less likely to piss you off when he does inevitably goes nuts! It does happen last game my dreadnought spent two turns firing into the side of my rhino! fortunatley he only had bolters!
The other thing, kharn is awesome but is he fluffy to be the leading HQ choice for an IW army? not so sure!? plus you will find he only has 6 attacks as I believe you will find gore child is a special weapon!
Fluff wise drop the havos bring in more vindies,
keep the dreadnought long live chaos nut bag dreads!
Rest of the stuff I like!
But like ROT says PM's are awesome troop choices and load them with plasma joy!
 

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But i don't see how you saying-

'Yeah forget that unit, it's shit. So is that unit. Wait all units are shit.'

-Is helpful.

I appreciate that you are a good player, speaking from experience; But just lighten up abit.
Well it does help outline what units should not be used. Such as chaos dreadnoughts. When I was a noob chaos player I wish people had been direct instead of sidewinding things like:
"Oh a chaos dreadnought? They're good in certain circumstances, like if they fleet into an enemy tank!"
"Chaos lords CAN roll really high and might make back their points!"
"Chaos spawn provide a distraction! Nobody sees them coming, and they move random, that might work in your favor!"

When in reality, and probability, this happens:
"Chaos dreadnoughts don't listen to you a third of the game, and when they don't they either plasma cannon your havocs TWICE, or run out of cover to get shot in the face a whole lot"
"Chaos lords get fisted and die. Also they don't lash. GG."
"Chaos spawn gets the charge on fire warriors, and because it's SaP it goes last. Mathematically the firewarriors kill it before it swings."

I use the harsh reality to help people avoid frivolous spending, I assume they have to buy the models to use them in tournaments(If you're on vassal go nuts though hahah) and I'd hate to give them risky advice, and have them buy a paperweight(Albeit a very cool-looking one!).


And the biggest problem with evaluating chaos armies is that most of our units really are shit. We have few choices that reliably can be played by anyone and make their points back in every game type. So when people ask for a list(especially new people), I give them THE list, and once they have those units (Double princes, zerkers, plague marines, oblits, chosen, maybe raptors/vindicators) they can start playing around with our more...um...risky options, such as bloodfeeder lords, dreadnoughts, and terminators.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Right where to begin? Well for starters thanks to everyone for posting and keep the comments coming as they are really helpful.

I'm going to work on some improvements over my original lists and see what everyone thinks but there are still a few things I need worked out so maybe you can help. Just remember folks its competitive/fluffy which means I never want to go into a game having lost before turn one, but equally I would be unhappy winning with an unthemed list

First big problem is HQ. I know a daemon prince is so good for the points and eternal warrior etc but I really just don't want one. So what should I take? I chose Kharn because he is cheap for what he brings to the table. Hit everything on 2+, yes it is 7 attacks on the charge as Gorechild is a counts as power weapon, but even better gives all the benefits of a powerfist. So really what can I replace him with that is anyway good and still fluffy?

Two, consensus is that havocs are baaaad lol and need replaced. So here is my thinking. Havocs in a rhino are fast and mobile and can't be taken out with a single shot, nor are they sitting ducks for MC or high powered weapons like armoured vehicles. Plus at a push they can mount up and get stuck in, three attacks on the charge plus pistols isnt to be taken lightly in an emergency. So would love comments on my perspective (ive never used them...am I missing something?) However I do take onboard advice, so if I was to replace them what immediately sticks out as avoiding one shot insta death and being fluffy is Obliterators, so maybe some ideas about them and tactics. My main problem for them is, won't they be too slow for everything in rhinos?

I've also decided to listen and get rid of my Dreadnought (he will be in 2000pts only :) ) Deus actually reminded me that it is one shot away from death and I really do hate that. So I definately think some Terminators, I already own the models and are very fluffy I think. But how to run them? I'm thinking 5, 1 Champ with twin lightning claws, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, IOCG, x2 Combi-Melta, x2 Combi-Plasma, Heavy Flamer, deepstriking.

To finish don't worry about the percieved negative comments I understand everyone is trying to help. However, and I know this might limit some replies, but I don't want PM I know they are tough, but I just hate counts-as but I do know what you all mean about them being great. :eek:k:
 

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Halloween Town
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Erm gorechhild in no way gets the benefits of a powerfist... powerfist doubles the strength of the user, gorechild doesn't! if there is any similarlity it would be with a chainfist!
You could put havocs in a rhino although I see little point if it moves they cant move shoot which in my mind negates there purpose some what!
Defilers are useful too! CC and ba da boom battlecannon!
Termies tend to be used best as termicide 3 of them armed with combi melta's!
Another good way to run them would be in a LR, MoS and LC's maybe arm one with chainfist and heavy flamer!
 

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Erm gorechhild in no way gets the benefits of a powerfist... powerfist doubles the strength of the user, gorechild doesn't! if there is any similarlity it would be with a chainfist!
You could put havocs in a rhino although I see little point if it moves they cant move shoot which in my mind negates there purpose some what!
Defilers are useful too! CC and ba da boom battlecannon!
Termies tend to be used best as termicide 3 of them armed with combi melta's!
Another good way to run them would be in a LR, MoS and LC's maybe arm one with chainfist and heavy flamer!
mos is bad. Like uber bad. The only icons you give to big squads of termies are the MoT for the 4+ invulnerable save(Or you die like a bitch), or MoN(so you dont get dragged down by weight of fire) Although I edge towards the tzeentch one as it's always effective, getting shot at and in CC. MoS does the worst effect as its only good in cc and only makes you marginally faster then loyalist equivalents. Those equivalents that carry storm shields and shit all over ours.

Defilers are huge kmart-sized awful. All the weaknesses of a vindicator(one shot a turn, lower av) with none of its compact nature. Plus you pay points for it to do two tasks it cant do simultaneously.

Kharn is decent as an hq if we didnt have princes, his mc hits with gorechild are pro as is his sheer volume of attacks and S
 

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Halloween Town
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MoS is not bad! With LCs your generally striking first with reroll wounds! Most things will be dead!obv you would be smart and not charge the storm shields coz that would be stupid unless you sofftened them up first! The extra plus one one the invul save isn't worth it! Kharn is indeed a good hq I run him most games he's now even better as I have been stupidly mugging myself off of an attack! I hugely disagree with the defiler comment, i myself untill recently was in the defilers are crap camp! Run two and see the hell they pay!
 

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The extra plus one one the invul save isn't worth it!
I stopped reading right there. Are you high?

What do our terminators in big squads kill? What are their targets? High-cost large monsters or big squads of other terminators.
Let's say we bring the whole squad of LC MoS termies. They charge out of the land raider(Cause otherwise you get shot to pieces with JUST a 5++), and run into the biggest thing they can, the tyranid death star:

Oops lash whips, you go last and die.

Alright how about charging something like an equivalent number of terminators:

Oops they were in cover, and swing first.
(The only time you'll ever find eight termies standing in the open is if their land raider ride explodes, so they'll deploy in the crater and be invulnerable to your charge for a turn, so essentially this strat fails)

Alright then, let's try a six man squad of thunder wolves, the only real logical target where you might gain some points back:

Slaaneshi:
32 attacks -> 16 hit -> 7 wounds -> 2 take wounds due to allocation.

Uh oh. None of them died.

Also remember we don't have a land raider with frag launchers, so if we run through cover we strike at I1. Fuck.

That's the problem with the MoS over the others, you need the MoT to survive in combat with things that cost what you do, otherwise you get rolled. Sure it's neat but many armies have terminators that get I5 from furious charge, and s5(Templar LCs make a mockery of chaos ones on the charge. Rerolling to hit, and wound, at i5 s5)
 

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Halloween Town
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why wouldn't you be in a land raider? Seriously? You have cc termies so you foot slog them? Brilliant! deep strike them? Both crap ideas!
I expect it was a slip but I don.t know how you've got 8 termies in a landraider!
I see you point with the tzeentch to an extent but your examples are pretty extreme! I personally kill troops with my termies! They cant claim objectives if they have no troops and I use my big guns to level there decent stuff!
Your examples like saying I charge my tzeentch termies into a nightbringer oh wait no save and I cant wound him! Target prority!
Each unit wont make its points back they all have there uses be it distraction, full on killing or support! So in response not high just not single minded!
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Okie Dokie folks, I am going to have to ask that we reign in the kinds of comments being put forward on this thread. This thread is about my Iron warriors lists, and how to improve them and remain relatively fluffy.

Right, just to get it out of the way Jondoe297 the MOS is pretty bad. Why wouldn't you be in a Land Raider? Well because thats 220-240pts and limits you to five Terminators, of which a mininimum of one is ruined because you need at least a chainfist and finally most elite CC units are Int 6 or 5, meaning at best, you both go together or at worst are still slow against genestealers, Berzerkers on the charge etc. I'm not taking sides but I pretty much agree with most of what LordWaffles has been saying (9wait isn't that taking sides?). Although that is not to discourage you from posting, because even though I disagree, by making me think about why I'm disagreeing your still helping me.

But to make it clear, no more discussions please about MOS, or Plague marines on this board I want advice on how to improve my lists which no-one seems to be bothering to make reference to anymore. So if we can, lets get back to a discussion about a competitive and RELATIVELY FLUFFY Iron Warriors list.

The problems I'm still having that I would like comments on (as well as all general comments about things I mightened have considered as well) are

1. HQ - I know its not great fluff wise, but its not the worst either, as Iron Warriors do use Khorne Berzerkers. The problem is he is so good for his points compared to anything else I can think of, hits on 2+ , 7 attacks, strength 6 on the charge, and extra D6 vs vehicles, not to mention a plasma pistols which can be helpful to open Rhino's before charging. So any ideas for a Warsmith or alternate HQ and what are your opinions of my choice of Kharn?

2. Dreadnought - I admit that at this point it has to go, I like the model and think it is way underrated by most chaos players tactically (and most people interpret Fire Frenzy wrong) but as Deus pointed out, its one shot away from being history, so he is officially being packed up for 1850-2000pt games. So what should I do with those 130pts, I'm thinking Termicide either plasma or melta, what do you think? Or maybe you all have other ideas?

3. Heavy Support - I really want people to weigh in on this, but logically please. You dont like havocs? Why what am I missing? You suggest Obliterators, great and fluffy, but how am I going to use them etc etc.

4. Finally if you saw this list at a tournament what would you think and how would the army you mainly use (not specifically tailored to beat this list but imagine you hadn't seen it beforehand) fair against it?


As always though, thanks to everybody who has commented so far even when your advice wasn't adopted. To those of you simply looking through this board and not commenting....GET COMMENTING!! (please) :victory:
 

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Halloween Town
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The ironic thing is I don't run termies very often (when I do they are khorne coz I like to roll out zhufor once in a while). It just annoys me when people completly dismiss things,
So on to your actual list yer kharn is quality but I still don't think very unfluffy!
HQ best bet (FLUFF wise) would be a lord (warsmith) but I think your right in that points wise for what he does is a good shout!
Elites
Termicide squad (3) meltas with LR DP
Troops
Zerker squad (8) SC PF (ride in LR)
Nilla Squad (10) AC PF 2xMG Iof CG rhino
HS
2 Vindies DP
2 oblits
rest of points on HQ and extra troop choice

Vindies are good fun and suit the IW theme well, the LR with frothy zerkers and kharn are excellent assault troops and oblits are quality mobile firing platforms!
Termicide is there to take out a tank, annoying HS or MC and generally disrupt whilst allowing you to take an extra HS choice! (as in the termies dedicated transport)
 
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