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As the title says, I see many people refering to there being CSM alive today that were alive during the Heresy ~10k years ago. But do people mistakenly assume this means they are 10k years old? I think it was in Soul Hunter (or maybe Blood Gorgons?) that it was mentioned that due to time having different properties in the Eye of Terror where most traitor marines reside, while 10,000 years passed in the rest of the universe, inside the Eye, only a few decades or centuries had passed. Yet I continually see people refer to these CSMs as being extremely experienced and ultimately better warriors than the average Loyalist due to having lived SO long. From what I can tell, the loyalist marines that have lived for Millenia are probably more experienced warriors than many of the traitor marines that were around for the Heresy.

Am I mis-remembering what I read or just plain wrong?
 

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Bane of Empires
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Time is not consistent within the Eye. For some Chaos Astartes 10,000 years may have passed and they therefore may have garnered 10,000 years worth of combat experience. Whilst for others (using Soul Hunter as an example) only a century or so may have passed. But there are also more extremes, for some perhaps only a year or less has passed. Whilst for others perhaps 50,000 years or even longer may have passed, who knows.
 

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Time has no real meaning in the warp so you are right, to a degree.
As time does not flow in the same way in the warp it's also safe to assume that it could just as easily work the other way, there could be CSM with over a hundred thousand years of experience.
The original SM's were effectively immortal, they could be killed in battle but age would not kill them, therefore they could just keep ticking over, getting better and better at what they do. Add to that the constant infighting between the traitor legions and only the smartest and toughest would survive.
Although it's not shown in actual game terms I would say that the original traitor marines are superior to their modern day equivalents.

Ninja'd by CotE!
 

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The Emperor Protects
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There is no way of gauging how old any of the traitor astartes actually are. As you pointed out, time doesn't flow as we know it withing the Eye. The traitors could be anywhere from a young age to well over 10,000 years old. They could emerge from the Eye having to them only been in there for a matter of months since the Heresy or whenever they entered. They could of course exit having spent tens of thousands of years in there.

Edit: Bah, beaten by both CotE and Norm!
 

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No you're misunderstanding those people. Every CSM that is put on the tabletop or fights in any war against the imperium has a 99% probability of having killed several SM captains during the attack on Terra, killed Rogal Dorn (most likely with no weapons of their own) all while never growing old in the 10,000 years from the HH. They should all have better stats in every category over loyal SMs, have eternal warrior, and every good USR.

:headbutt:

Most of the time, the people making the claims that CSM are all 10k years old tend to just be fanboys for CSM. Similar to how people claim Matt Ward is an Imperial fanboy, they make crazy claims about the CSM faction and just say "HURR THE WARP MAKES THEM LEETZORS DURR."

I would say a good amount of the CSM that date to the Heresy are either dead, ascended, or have spent so much time deep in the warp that they haven't aged more then a few hundred years (if they aged at all).
 

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No you're misunderstanding those people. Every CSM that is put on the tabletop or fights in any war against the imperium has a 99% probability of having killed several SM captains during the attack on Terra, killed Rogal Dorn (most likely with no weapons of their own) all while never growing old in the 10,000 years from the HH. They should all have better stats in every category over loyal SMs, have eternal warrior, and every good USR.

:headbutt:

Most of the time, the people making the claims that CSM are all 10k years old tend to just be fanboys for CSM. Similar to how people claim Matt Ward is an Imperial fanboy, they make crazy claims about the CSM faction and just say "HURR THE WARP MAKES THEM LEETZORS DURR."

I would say a good amount of the CSM that date to the Heresy are either dead, ascended, or have spent so much time deep in the warp that they haven't aged more then a few hundred years (if they aged at all).
Ahhh, so that must make you one of those Loyalist Fanboys that get a new SM Codex every year and scream "Duuurrrr, Speece Marines are da best coz thez da good guyz!!!" Even tho Chaos Marines live in way more hostile conditions than their counter parts, and the sad fact is Chaos Gifted Marines trump joe shmoe Marine. Sorry.
 

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Wow, this thread got hostile quick!

CSM being over 10k years old isn't fanboyism it's what's written in the fluff, nothing to do with Twat Ward's wet dreams, it's standard established fluff that's been around since the CSM's.
I just get annoyed when catered too players try to talk smack to CSM players who have to deal with a single crappy codex while they get BTs, DAs, BAs, SWs, GKs, and SMs. Get over it people, some of us can only afford to buy one army and sorry it happens to be CSM and their fluff (like SWs) is awsome.
 

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Well as been said time flows different in the warp a csm could be only 500 yrs old real space time, but cause of the warp 5,000 yrs may have passed since the csm turned traitor and went to the EoT, but we know that most csm have had far more combat experience that most space marines, and there will be those that have had 10,000 yrs worth of experience.
It is in the fluff that those few in the traitor legions will be 10,000 yrs old.
Even a 200 yr old chaos marine my have the experience of 10,000yrs of combat.
One example could be Kharn the betrayer, because of Khorne, i bet Kharn is going to be 10,000 yrs old, same with most of the SC in the chaos dex.

And so its nothing to do with chaos fanboyism, when its in fluff.
I wouldnt put it past some csm champions to be able to put down even Calgar, i would most certainly bet say a dark apostle could best most space marine heroes.
 

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Cmooooooon use your imagination - we shouldnt be having an argument over whether SM or CSM are better. On any view they are roughly comparable.

True that many CSM, taking into account the obscurities of warp time flow, have more years under their belt, and hence could be considered 'better', but who says? A fresh mind is often the keenest in sport at least, not too long a bow to draw that in battle an old mind actually might actually be a bad thing.

Of course experience counts for much, and then there are the chaos superpowers that warp-slaves tend to acquire over time. Sure, that must make them powerful in combat. But perhaps those chaos powers and mutations might backfire once every so often. Perhaps an old, experienced warrrior encounters blinding hubris which causes him to fail. Perhaps bad habits become ingrained, or aged arrogance denies the ability to improve, remedy and address poor fighting techniques.

Im just saying, use your imagination. Number of years fighting isnt always the be all and end all.
 

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Ahhh, so that must make you one of those Loyalist Fanboys that get a new SM Codex every year and scream "Duuurrrr, Speece Marines are da best coz thez da good guyz!!!" Even tho Chaos Marines live in way more hostile conditions than their counter parts, and the sad fact is Chaos Gifted Marines trump joe shmoe Marine. Sorry.
And I would never make that argument. Personally I think it comes down to the individual SM and CSM. I don't think a sweeping generalization of the powers of either force would be correct.

Wow, this thread got hostile quick!

CSM being over 10k years old isn't fanboyism it's what's written in the fluff, nothing to do with Twat Ward's wet dreams, it's standard established fluff that's been around since the CSM's.
My argument and my point were towards the idea that ALL CSM are 10,000 year old veterans of the heresy. We see plenty of threads about the CSM where people make claims that they are "10,000 year old veterans," yet it is known that plenty of CSM have been killed over the years, have ascended to the ranks of Deamonhood, or had their bodies warped to the point they would be more deamon then man. Then theres the unknown number of how many SM chapters have turned to chaos in the 10,000 years from the heresy and the newly created members of certain traitor legions (like Hansou from the IW).

Now I never disputed the idea that there are SOME CSM who are 10,000+ years old. I just don't agree with the idea that the vast majority of CSM are over 2,000 years old of real space time. Hell 2,000+ years in a brutal place like the warp would kill pretty much all but the strongest, who would most likely go on to become Chaos Lords. And we know there are only a small number of them running around.
 

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At no point has anyone said in this thread that all CSM are 10K years old or more, the question was 'Could it be possible'.
Rather than start moaning about fanboyism and then trying to defend Twat Ward it would have been far easier to just say 'yeah, it's possible but I doubt there are many left after such a long time'.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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No, very much doubt that any of them are that old. Time does not behave in the same manor in the warp that it does in real space. Time passing here does not necessarily mean passage of time there.
 

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Cmooooooon use your imagination - we shouldnt be having an argument over whether SM or CSM are better. On any view they are roughly comparable.

True that many CSM, taking into account the obscurities of warp time flow, have more years under their belt, and hence could be considered 'better', but who says? A fresh mind is often the keenest in sport at least, not too long a bow to draw that in battle an old mind actually might actually be a bad thing.

Of course experience counts for much, and then there are the chaos superpowers that warp-slaves tend to acquire over time. Sure, that must make them powerful in combat. But perhaps those chaos powers and mutations might backfire once every so often. Perhaps an old, experienced warrrior encounters blinding hubris which causes him to fail. Perhaps bad habits become ingrained, or aged arrogance denies the ability to improve, remedy and address poor fighting techniques.

Im just saying, use your imagination. Number of years fighting isnt always the be all and end all.
That may well be true for a normal human, but were talking about astartes they only get better over time and to say csm are roughly comparable is only true for certain amount of renegades and large majority are vastly more experienced then there loyalist counter parts even in the fluff we see this.
 

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If a chaos marine is 10,000 years old, I expect him to be a daemon prince, a spawn, dead or a chaos lord. I mean seriously what have you been doing all this time if your still a regular marine? Having fun time with Slaanesh?
 

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If the original question and subsequant posts are trying to make the point that CSM being 10k in warp makes them more powerful and effective in combat then I agree it might do. Also as 30k Legions they were more powerful any way.

Also I believe that if any of the Chaos Legions were to meet their pre heresy counterparts on equal terms of weaponry and numbers the Pre - Heresy Legions would split their sides laughing at how pathetic they have become.
 

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If a chaos marine is 10,000 years old, I expect him to be a daemon prince, a spawn, dead or a chaos lord. I mean seriously what have you been doing all this time if your still a regular marine? Having fun time with Slaanesh?
Well...to us its 10,000 years but to them its much much shorter, because of the way time flows in the eye of terror. And there may be some truth in the slaanesh thing too...
 

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Well...to us its 10,000 years but to them its much much shorter, because of the way time flows in the eye of terror.
Not necessarily, it's just as likely to work the other way.
If time in the warp always runs more slowly, it would imply that there are laws governing time in the warp, by the very nature of the warp this cannot be possible.
The laws of physics don't apply in the warp, the blink of an eye could be an eternity there, whereas its also possible that the last 10K years have passed in a few seconds.
 
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