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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-31-10, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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Default 2500 WoC - Tzeentch

2500.0 Pts - Warriors of Chaos Roster

Sorcerer Lord (2#, 420.0 pts)
1 Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch (Level 4 Upgrade)
1 Disc of Tzeentch
1 Sword of Swift Slaying
1 Charmed Shield
1 Infernal Puppet
1 Golden Eye of Tzeentch
1 Bloodcurdling Roar

Exalted Hero (1#, 200.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch (Battle Standard Bearer; Shield)
1 Sword of Might
1 Talisman of Endurance

Exalted Hero (1#, 175.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch @ 175.0 pts (Shield)
1 Sword of Battle
1 Dragonhelm
1 Talisman of Protection
1 Ironcurse Icon

Squad (4#, 205.0 pts)
1 Hellcannon @ 205.0 pts

Chaos Warshrine (1#, 150.0 pts)
1 Chaos Warshrine of Tzeentch @ 150.0 pts

Chaos Warriors (20#, 426.0 pts)
21 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 410.0 pts (Full Command; Shield)
1 Blasted Standard
BSB JOINS THIS UNIT

Chaos Warriors (20#, 415.0 pts)
20 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 415.0 pts (Full Command; Shield)
1 Razor Standard
IRONCURSE ICON CHAMP JOINS THIS UNIT

Chaos Marauders (40#, 250.0 pts)
39 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 250.0 pts (Full Command; Great Weapon)

Chaos Marauders (40#, 250.0 pts)
39 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 250.0 pts (Full Command; Great Weapon)
Total Roster Cost: 2501.0

2491/2500

I realize the marauders are not fluffy, but I need something that packs a punch! I would model them up as pissed off slaves rather than devotees of khorne.

The warriors have decent protection from shooting in the blasted standard one 1 unit and the ironcurse icon on the other. I tried to make use of MoT where possible with things like parry saves and some of the cheaper talismens on the heros.

The sorcerer is pretty standard, casting and going after warmachines. I like bloodcurdling scream as you can wound anything on a 6 now.


Thoughts?

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-31-10, 11:30 PM
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l am guessing the Marauders will hide behind the unit of Warriors for cove till they get to combat,

this army will do well vs shooting army's but if you have to face a full combat army thats not running a shooting unit (BoC) then then odds are your army is going to suffer.

you should also note that some spells don't give ward saves and with this many points there can be some crazy mages so l would drop the Exalted Hero @ 175.0 pts (they are both called 1#) and get a soc with some dispel to help out.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 01:56 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sybarite View Post
l am guessing the Marauders will hide behind the unit of Warriors for cove till they get to combat,

this army will do well vs shooting army's but if you have to face a full combat army thats not running a shooting unit (BoC) then then odds are your army is going to suffer.

you should also note that some spells don't give ward saves and with this many points there can be some crazy mages so l would drop the Exalted Hero @ 175.0 pts (they are both called 1#) and get a soc with some dispel to help out.
Yeah, The marauders will follow up the warriors and once the warriors engage, they charge the flank. I don't think I need to worry about full combat armies as that's exactly where this army wants to be. The warriors are tough enough (armour and parry) to tie units up and have enough attacks to thin hordes and put wounds on well armoured units. The marauders coming in on the flanks should more than put a dent in most things as well with the warriors to the front.

Mages as well are not much of a worry, the dreaded 3 spells are purple sun, dwellers, and the 13th. Against the 2 initiative based ones, I don't really need to worry much and there isn't anything anyone can do about a power scrolled 13th.

I think this list will have troubles with large horde armies like skaven lists full of cheap slaves and maybe the odd gobby list. BoC can be nasty but for the most part, their book is full of fail (unfortunately as I have a number of minotaurs). Empire gunlines might still be a problem as well, especially forcing enough saves and the long rifles picking out standard bearers. I'm probably a bit worried about dwarven gunlines backed by a couple of large warrior squads as well. A lot of it will come down to my rolling as well, if I'm making armour + Invuln saves, the list should be able to steamroll as like I said above, it packs good defense and plenty of attacks. However, a round of bad rolling and a few dead warriors later, the list could crumble pretty quick.

Thoughts?

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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 05:01 AM
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l don't really like going do or die with Warriors squad but you understand all the risks.

l would spend 5 points on Favour of the Gods to give one of the warrior squad more chances of getting what they want from the warshine

l have also not had much luck with Bloodcurdling Roar but you chould give it to the BSB and make a shooting unit

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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 06:48 PM
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That is a lot invested in core. I'd make sure to have a favor of the gods and probably consider runnning two warshrines instead of one (do like MoTz on warshrines as they substantially improve the odds of surviving cannon shots and shooting and most magic in general). I'm not sold on marauders as infantry. While they will kill some with GW's, but, striking last, they'll die and break pretty fast and can get badly shot up. Some, myself included, prefer flails for the +2S in the first round but not striking last. Also, unless the marauders are screened or close to the BSB and/or general, they will often be baited and forced to take failed charges, screwing up your battleline and tactics. You will be very vulnerable to mobile, faster armies that can hit hard on the flanks and break units.

The lord on disc is very vulnerable to certain magic and shooting, especially cannons. He has no look out sir at all because you have no cavalry to run nearby. He will eventually fail and ward save and get killed by a cannon or a bolt.

In order to deal with flanking and heavy artillery, I would much prefer two units of MoS M. Horsemen with flails as fast cav to replace one of the marauder blocks. They can get shot up and die but can do wonders in unfavorable match ups in taking out enemy fast cav and war machines.

I'm sure you are aware that some are running chaos chosen with favor of the gods and two warshrines. I've also run chaos knights and chaos ogres with chaos armour and MoK and at musician and sometimes a champ in the mix (need to be near enough to the BSB to control).
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by olderplayer View Post
That is a lot invested in core. I'd make sure to have a favor of the gods and probably consider runnning two warshrines instead of one (do like MoTz on warshrines as they substantially improve the odds of surviving cannon shots and shooting and most magic in general). I'm not sold on marauders as infantry. While they will kill some with GW's, but, striking last, they'll die and break pretty fast and can get badly shot up. Some, myself included, prefer flails for the +2S in the first round but not striking last. Also, unless the marauders are screened or close to the BSB and/or general, they will often be baited and forced to take failed charges, screwing up your battleline and tactics. You will be very vulnerable to mobile, faster armies that can hit hard on the flanks and break units.

It is a fair investment into core, I think it's necessary though. You need 50% and a chaos warrior is more of a match for most units in the game. Tzeentch are just a bit less killy for a bit more survivability - which I would argue is needed as you don't want to lose em. I think I'll try to add favor as well as another warshrine to really jack up the warriors. I use to run marauders with flails but with 8th, very few combats end after just 1 round. Once that first round is over, the marauders just become a tarpit. I think I'm going to keep at least 1 unit of them, maybe make it bigger. I might drop the second for the stuff listed above! The marauders will be screened by the warriors. Also, as far as I know, there are no fast units capable of breaking a unit on a flank charge with stubborn and rerollable LD checks.

The lord on disc is very vulnerable to certain magic and shooting, especially cannons. He has no look out sir at all because you have no cavalry to run nearby. He will eventually fail and ward save and get killed by a cannon or a bolt.

He's sorta vulnerable. A 3+ ward is nothing to scoff at, plus the charmed shield lets me ignore the first cannonball. The thing is, he's going to be in combat second turn with a warmachine and then behind the enemy lines after that. It's a win/lose with him. If they shoot a cannonball at him, its not going into my less protected stuff. And some of the time, he's going to go down to the first cannonball that hits him. I think I'm ok with that as he's not integral to the plan.

In order to deal with flanking and heavy artillery, I would much prefer two units of MoS M. Horsemen with flails as fast cav to replace one of the marauder blocks. They can get shot up and die but can do wonders in unfavorable match ups in taking out enemy fast cav and war machines.

I think I might toss in a unit or two of these. Although, couldn't the wolves do damn near the same thing for less points. They may not kill dwarf crew members but they'll tie em up.

I'm sure you are aware that some are running chaos chosen with favor of the gods and two warshrines. I've also run chaos knights and chaos ogres with chaos armour and MoK and at musician and sometimes a champ in the mix (need to be near enough to the BSB to control).
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with the chosen. They are only marginally better than a standard warrior... And they're pewter, blech. I do like the 2 warshrines, tossing out buffs where needed.

Thanks for the things to think about.

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Crimzzen View Post
2500.0 Pts - Warriors of Chaos Roster

Sorcerer Lord (2#, 420.0 pts)
1 Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch (Level 4 Upgrade)
1 Disc of Tzeentch
1 Sword of Swift Slaying
1 Charmed Shield
1 Infernal Puppet
1 Golden Eye of Tzeentch
1 Bloodcurdling Roar
Not too sure on the need for Close Combat Equipment. Also, it cannot take a shield (only armour). Puppet's good.

Exalted Hero (1#, 200.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch (Battle Standard Bearer; Shield)
1 Sword of Might
1 Talisman of Endurance
Whoa Expensive. Not sold really, but the BSB is needed.

Exalted Hero (1#, 175.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch @ 175.0 pts (Shield)
1 Sword of Battle
1 Dragonhelm
1 Talisman of Protection
1 Ironcurse Icon
Not that effective. He has a 3+/5++ which for a 175pts 2 wound character is horrendous considering where he'll be. Drop this for a second Sorceror. Doesn't have to be marked.


Squad (4#, 205.0 pts)
1 Hellcannon @ 205.0 pts
I don't find it effective to run one.

Chaos Warshrine (1#, 150.0 pts)
1 Chaos Warshrine of Tzeentch @ 150.0 pts
Same as above.

Chaos Warriors (20#, 426.0 pts)
21 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 410.0 pts (Full Command; Shield)
1 Blasted Standard
BSB JOINS THIS UNIT
Good good.


Chaos Warriors (20#, 415.0 pts)
20 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 415.0 pts (Full Command; Shield)
1 Razor Standard
IRONCURSE ICON CHAMP JOINS THIS UNIT
Not that good. Razor Standard should be on the BSB, and works best with the Mark of Nurgle/Rage Banner combination with Halberds. (3 S5 AP attacks apiece? Most Heroes would be jealous.

Chaos Marauders (40#, 250.0 pts)
39 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 250.0 pts (Full Command; Great Weapon)
Okay. Much prefer Khorne Warriors or Dragon Ogres, which will definately draw more firepower, and do more damage. 3, with GW/AHW and a Champion are 271, and can really hurt enemy armour or hordes.

Chaos Marauders (40#, 250.0 pts)
39 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 250.0 pts (Full Command; Great Weapon)
As above.

2491/2500

I realize the marauders are not fluffy, but I need something that packs a punch! I would model them up as pissed off slaves rather than devotees of khorne.
They don't really pack a punch though. 2S5 Attacks at WS4 sounds good for 6pts a model (well, it is), but they have ASL even on the charge. A unit 7 wide would put out 21 S5 attacks, of which half hit, and 2/3rd wound - that's about 7, kills on 5+ Armour units. Anything higher, and they're weaker. That DOgre unit I suggest has 10 S7 attacks or 13 S5 Attacks and a S5 Stomp Attack apiece. They have less attacks, but are more flexible, and are faster movers. Armour is something WoC struggles with - that is IMHO their best counter.

The warriors have decent protection from shooting in the blasted standard one 1 unit and the ironcurse icon on the other. I tried to make use of MoT where possible with things like parry saves and some of the cheaper talismens on the heros.
It's decent, but WoC are there to kill things. There is sometim a need to hold the line against that rare thing that hits as hard or harder than Warriors (Minotaurs, Trolls, Black Orcs, Dragon Ogres). Personally, I wouldn't be basing an army which can only attack with a defensive build. We pay a premium for our killing power (even Elite units can rarely match them one for one without some excessive magical doodah tricks), so might as well go someway to getting the best out of it.
The sorcerer is pretty standard, casting and going after warmachines. I like bloodcurdling scream as you can wound anything on a 6 now.


Thoughts?
I hope that helps =).



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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 12:17 PM
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... it cannot take a shield (only armour).
I disagree.

Magical shields are not a separate type of item to magical armour in 8th Edition so can be taken by Sorcerers.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 07:33 PM
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WoC Sorcerors can take magic shields and shields because they also can take armour (chaos armour).

Crimmzon's reply to my comments was good. Some additional points.

Hounds don't last or survive and don't have marks, vanguard or fast cav benefits, so M. horsemen are worth the extra points. Additionally, I believe that the disc is counted as a war beast and a hero or sorc on a disc is, thus, considered a cavalry model and entitled to look out sir benefits from cavalry models nearby. That is another benefit of running a fast cav unit or heavy cav in the army, because the lvl 4 gets a 4+ look out sir if close enough to cav and can be screened in part from shooting until he gets to charge.

The lvl 4 Sorceror with MoT is so powerful with Tzeentch magic (+5 to all casting rolls) and MoT that some prefer to protect him, rather than use him to go after war machines and such. Also, the ability to use MR of the collar in a unit is a protective benefit for the unit carrying the lvl 4 sorc in such instances. An exalted MoT hero on a disc is then used to hunt down war machines and go after fast cav and mage hunting. With RIP spells allowing additional spells to be cast, Call to Glory and Pandemonium become much more powerful than before against any army that relies on even modest casting or leadership of characters and forces max dispel efforts in your phase or in their next magic phase. Treason is nasty against units not ITP. Gateway is still awesome, as is flickering fire.

The point about flails on marauders due to multiple rounds of combat is a valid issue.

There seem to be two consensus alternative set ups for warriors of chaos in currently favour in 8th edition.
1. Equip with halberds (optionally include shields for increased AS from shooting and magic is worthwhile given points cost per model) and sometimes choose MoK or the combo of MoT and Banner of Rage if with or within range of the BSB (Banner of Rage, however, is often attached to another unit.) to max killing effect. This set-up is best when facing armies with fewer models with greater T and/or greater armour saves (like WoC, ogres, some orc hordes, or dwarves or lizardmen). MoN is often not worthwhile unless facing armies with a lot of BS shooting (only some elf armies).
2. Equip with shields and MoT to max armour saves and ward saves in frontal close combat (also maybe rapture standard for break tests). This provides greater resilience but less killing power and is most appropriate when seeing a lot of elves (other than heavy cav and hydras), goblins, skaven, and most daemons of chaos armies (other than the Khorne characters and elite units).
Since Warriors are expensive per model, killing and max combat resolution is often preferred to max resilience.
I've seen and used blasted standard, rapturous standard, banner of rage, standard of discipline, and the standard that increases M by 1 commonly used. If Festus is allowed and used, then MoN and Festering Banner (or whatever it is) becomes a viable option for one unit.

Last edited by olderplayer; 11-03-10 at 08:13 PM.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 09:30 PM Thread Starter
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Hmmm, all good stuff to think about. I'll run army builder tonight and see what I can come up with. To be honest, I think I'm excited about dropping marauders and using more warriors.

As a side note, how do WoC armies do in comparison to others? I understand that skaven, Lizardmen, and HE's are at the top right now. Can WoC hold up against these?

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