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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Default 1500vsSkaven, 2 final drafts

So long story short, I'm back to the Hobby after 10y and this weekend I'm gonna play the first friendly with the guy that got me hooked again, to learn the new rules etc. He plays Skaven with no Abom.

After going over old posts and tips in the forum I devised 2 army lists, one more skaven oriented:

FIRST LIST:

GENERAL (374):
Sorcerer Lord , Lvl 4, MoN, Death Lore
Chaos Familiar, Talisman of Preservation, Barded Steed

CORE (375):
2 x 1 Chaos chariots of Slaanesh (230)
5 Chaos Warhounds with vanguard (40)
5 Marauder Horseman of Slaanesh, javelins, light armor, musician, champion/shields (105)

SPECIAL (494):
3 Dragon Ogres with GW (204)
6 Chaos Knights, EW, MoN,SB, Musician (290)

RARE (259):
3 Skullcrushers, EW, gleaming pendant, musician, sb

TOTAL......1502

In this first list my doubts would be the following:
Are the gifts+items on the lord the right ones?
For the MarCav unit, shields or champion?
6 Knights, or 5 knights with Magic Banner? Do I need a Champion with the knights for the challenge rules?

Death Lore, Dragon Ogres and no infantry unit make it Skaven Specific. My idea would be to pair 1 chariot with the Dragon ogres on one flank, and the other chariot with the knights on the other, with the crushers in the middle...that would make 3 groups of hard hitting units. Dogs in front of crushers and cav in an outer flank. Could that work?

SECOND LIST:

GENERAL(350):
Sorcerer Lord , Lvl 4, MoN
Chaos Familiar, Talisman of Preservation

BSB (204):
Exalted Hero, BSB, MoT
Dragonhelm, Tali of Endurance
Aditional Hand Weapon, Chaos Steed (Barded)

CORE (431):
1 Chaos chariots of Slaanesh (115)
5 Chaos Warhounds (30)
14 Chaos Warriors, aditional hand weapon, shields, MoN, mus, SB (286)

SPECIAL (274):
6 Chaos Knights, Lances, MoT,SB, Musician

RARE (246):
3 Skullcrushers, Lances, gleaming pendant, sb

TOTAL......1505

With this list I get to test all 4 marks plus the BSB, and infantry with ranks for Steadfast. I actually like it much less, it feels lacking everywhere just to have the chance to fit a BSB and a unit with ranks, but I really have no idea how important this 2 factors are nowadays. If I had to play today, I'd go with the first one, but you guys surely know better

All input appreciated
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 01:27 PM
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Both lists look solid, especially for friendly. They'll just play differently.

At 1500pts, you're right on that border of needing a BSB or not. Ld8 isn't terrible but it's only a pip over average on 2d6. You have enough marks that avoid psychology but if he's not running an Abom, you're only having to worry about panic from magic and/or shooting.

The additional hand weapons on the warriors I'm a bit ... meh about. You only get a single support attack from the 2nd row and they're usually better on MoK warriors since they get the extra attack for 4/model.

The kit on the lord is good. Just be careful of cannon snipes. In the first list, I'm assuming he goes in the knights. If the unit goes below 5 RnF models, you lose your "Look out, Sir!" roll. Also, if you're going to bunker the sorc in units, a champ for that unit would be a solid investment to help avoid your opponent exploiting the fact that you have to issue or accept challenges. Have the champ do the challenging.

Don't worry about a champ or shields for the marauder horse. If I run them, I run them usually w/ just MoS, flails, and muso. Nothing else. They're just there to try to get at warmachines and other chaff units.

Be careful when pairing chariots w/ cav untis. The cav can march but the chariots cannot. They can easily get left behind and you don't want to have to trundle along at chariot speed. WoC want to be in combat ASAP, especially if you end up facing a lot of skaven shoothing (cannon, jezzails, weapon teams...).

The first list is nice since you'll be exploiting WoC's speed. Second list is nice as you get a little bit of everything and it has the BSB. Like I said, both pretty solid looking for a friendly. Hope this helped!


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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, thanks a lot!! Some considerations:

If I had the points I'd use Halberds, but I'm totally out...should I try to fin those points (14) somehow, or remove the AHW and use those 28 somewhere else?

About the challengin. Let's see:
On the first list, where the SL goes with the knights if I use a champion that model doesn't count for the 5 minimun for the "Look out sir! rule right? Should I make the musician or SB a Champion anyway?

On the second list, I don't have a champion on the warriors for the same reason that I don't have halberds, no points. Should I change the musician or the SB for the Champion then? or use some of the points from the AHW?

I need to reach the 375 for Core, thats why The Marauder Cav need Shields or Champion Should I maybe add another unit of puppies and drop the vanguard of the first, and the shields/champion and light armor from the cav? That would make 375 also

Aha I forgot about the marching...so should I throw the knights into combat and then try to flank the unit with the chariot? Bit afraid of sending the knights on their own..mb with the Crushers?

Thanks a lot, any further input will be equally appreciated

Hey, thanks a lot for your input. I replied to your message some hours ago but it doesn't show so I'll try again

Regarding the Warriors, I didn't have enough points for halberds or champion, thats why I didnt like that list, wich also made my cushers weaker..so I think I'll go with the firts one

Regarding the Cavalry, I need the points to reach the 375 Core minimun. Another option would be to drop light armor, shields/champion and vanguard on the dogs, and add another dog unit. What do you think?

Regarding the BSB I just realized he's worth the same points as the Dragon Ogres....would be a good idead to swap them?

And now about the Sorcerer Lord in the Knights unit. If I get a champion (wich I don't have points for..should I drop the musician for it?) then I just have 5 models for the look out sir! rule.
How about I put the SL out of the unit, drop the horse and I'd get 25 extra points to spend in gifts+MI? (for example scaled skin and charmed shield?) Or that would make him too vulnerable? I have not enough knowledge of magic to know if going on foot outside enemy los would allow me to cast efectively, or be targeted etc

Again thanks for your input

Last edited by Dave T Hobbit; 11-01-13 at 04:59 PM.
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 09:49 PM
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I'd invest in that magic item for your sorcerer that gives him +1 to cast and dispel (essentially making your lvl 4 with familiar a lvl 5 sorcerer) and sticking with the lore of nurgle as you'll have 5 spells and the nurgle spells are GREAT! Especially for taking out skaven. Rancid Visitations and Curse of the Leper go awesome hand in hand, basically wipe out his hordes in 1 magic phase if the rolls go your way.

Also, a great loadout for a BSB without a standard is to equip him with the Helm of Many Eyes, Dawnstone, Scaled Skin (although seeing as he's mounted he'll have a 2+ save anyway, find another 25pt gift) and a great weapon. HoME will mean he strikes at I value with +2 str, and he'll re-roll failed Ld tests of stupidity. Thats 4 attacks at S7 at I6 re rolling armour saves of 2+, nasty. He'll either ignore the challenge from this guy and have you wipe out 4 rats a turn along with your unit doing lots of damage to it aswell and fleeing, or take the 4 attacks on his champion and save 3 rats from their doom and risk your BSB becoming a Battle Standard DAEMON!

Also, i'd drop the lances. At a standard str 4 you need 3's to wound 90% of the skaven team, str 6 is just overkill for 1 turn, go with ensc weapons for 2's to wound every turn. You probably dont need lances or ensc wepaons on the skull crushers as they put out enough attacks in 1 turn with rider and mount than most full size units, these guys won't be going down easy at all.

The true nature of Chaos is beyond any comprehension. No mere mortal can ever hope to understand these matters, and the wise do not puzzle too deeply over Chaos Gods, or try to fathom their wars, rivalries and bickerings.


Deathguard PLOG: https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=129438
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-04-13, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whittsy View Post
I'd invest in that magic item for your sorcerer that gives him +1 to cast and dispel
Maybe in a larger game for a 2nd sorcerer lord. That one item is 35 slaves and he'd have to drop the chaos familiar as it takes up the arcane item slot. I'd keep the talisman for protection purposes, especially since you're maxing the points on your lord. You lose him and you are seriously behind the 8-ball.

On the halberds ... stick w/ the AHW or go sword & board for the extra pip on AS and the 6+ ward in HtH.

As for the BSB vs Drogers ... that's something you'll have to play around with. The drogers have the wounds but the BSB has the survivability. Also, any I-based spell could be bad for the drogers being I2.

If you're going to drop a command option for a champ, make it the musician. The knights won't really need it for the swift reform as they can wheel fast enough. It gets a bit trickier on the infantry as the swift reform is really helpful. At 1500 you're probably not going to see a big combat character out of the rats so you could take your chances w/o a champion.

If you're going to use the warrior build, use the chariot to support them as they'll all be going the same speed. Otherwise, have them team up. 2 WoC chariots can make a real mess of stuff. It will also help out if you fluff the impact hit rolls (like I'm very prone to doing). The knights and crushers should be fine on their own as long as you avoid the 50+ units of slaves and clanrats. A lot will depend on deployment. If he has large steadfast blocks, then use the knights and crushers to support each other. Otherwise, you could probably get away w/ having them solo units of 25 or less. 1+ AS is nice but remember it's not a sure thing.


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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-08-13, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarnalBloodfist View Post
Maybe in a larger game for a 2nd sorcerer lord. That one item is 35 slaves and he'd have to drop the chaos familiar as it takes up the arcane item slot. I'd keep the talisman for protection purposes, especially since you're maxing the points on your lord. You lose him and you are seriously behind the 8-ball.

On the halberds ... stick w/ the AHW or go sword & board for the extra pip on AS and the 6+ ward in HtH.

As for the BSB vs Drogers ... that's something you'll have to play around with. The drogers have the wounds but the BSB has the survivability. Also, any I-based spell could be bad for the drogers being I2.

If you're going to drop a command option for a champ, make it the musician. The knights won't really need it for the swift reform as they can wheel fast enough. It gets a bit trickier on the infantry as the swift reform is really helpful. At 1500 you're probably not going to see a big combat character out of the rats so you could take your chances w/o a champion.

If you're going to use the warrior build, use the chariot to support them as they'll all be going the same speed. Otherwise, have them team up. 2 WoC chariots can make a real mess of stuff. It will also help out if you fluff the impact hit rolls (like I'm very prone to doing). The knights and crushers should be fine on their own as long as you avoid the 50+ units of slaves and clanrats. A lot will depend on deployment. If he has large steadfast blocks, then use the knights and crushers to support each other. Otherwise, you could probably get away w/ having them solo units of 25 or less. 1+ AS is nice but remember it's not a sure thing.
Hi guys!!

So I went for the first list, with Dragon Ogres for lighning resistance, no infantry vs the 13 and Death for the Purple Sun. Just before deploying he told me he never played with the 13 though, he also told me that he forgot his doomwheel at home so he wouldn't use it and that he didn't have any more lightning attacks, and of course when i rolled for my 5 spells I didn't get the Purple Sun. So all my pre-plan down the drain hehe

I had 7 drops, he had 5: 3 units of 25 rats (clan, something something) with a detachment each (2 mortars 1 gun), 3 Rat-ogres with handler, and some giant rats. He then had a lvl4 seer with the 70pts book, and a lvl1.

He made the first mistake in deployement. I deployed my marauder cavalry in my far left, and he put one unit of rats with the lvl 1 in front of it. Then I proceeded to deploy in the middle my Skullcrushers, with dragon ogres to their right, 1 chariot left and the hounds in front. He put the rest of his army more or less in front of those, with his best rat unit with the seer to the left. Then I finished by puting my knights and the remaining chariot to my far right, in front of that. So basically he had the unit with the lvl1 isolated from the rest, and he never played vs fast cavalry before so was doumbfounded when I just left that side and proceeded to flank his center.

I went first, moved all forward, got two 1's on my first spell...then he went, threw a Magic Missile to my SL and a Crack's Call to my chariot. I let the MM pass,saved all wounds (btw, didn't my SL on steed get LOS! for being with the Knights?) and I dispelled the CC. He charged with the seer rats to my knights (horrible mistake) and fell short. He also had to charge with the Rat-Ogres to my hounds, wich I positioned in a way that after the charge they would pursue into a building, and with the giant rats in the the hounds flank.

The rat ogres score two 1's on the charge, failing, and the gian rats charged, won the fight, made my hounds flee, and didn't pursue (another mistake, as they would have charged and locked my crushers). The Dragon Ogres passed the ld test for seeing the hounds flee, he scored a couple of wounds with the mortars and his turn was over.

Then I charged, and that was it. I totally destroyed his army with that one charge. I killed one detatchment with 1 DD spell, my MarCav killed the other with spears after positioning themselves at their back, and my chariot+knights to the left killed like 13 rats and made the unit flee, killing the general in the process, while my crushers+DO killed like 11 rats of the other unit, wich held, but was doomed the next turn. He didn't even bothered continuing.

He'd never played vs Caos before, and is not a very good player, but he left in total shock.I felt horrible for him. Were we doing something wrong? I guess he was at least, he made 3 terrible mistakes, but even if I just went full speed ahead and allowed him to charge me in turn 1 instead of holding a bit back for my charge in turn 2, I would have destroyed him anyway It really felt like overkill.

A review of how my units did, from worst to best, would be as this:

- Regarding units the weakest link would be the Dragon Ogres.Not only were they the easiest to wound, but the only ones that had to roll panic.

- The next unit I didn't know how to play exactly were the hounds. I wanted to used them to protect my Crushers from charging, but then ofc got charged themselves, almost caused my DO to flee, and if the skaven general was smart would have locked my crushers one turn with his rats. All in all they did nothing for me. I guess a smarter move would be not to put them in front of my line, but at the flanks, to avoid getting flanked?

- Then would be that Chariots. Average, one didn't do anything 'cause there was no space and it was too slow I chose Slaanesh, but I think I'd go with khorne from now on.

- Then would be the Crushers. I was not as impressed as I thought I would be with them.

- Then the knights. Awesome really. They did what the crushers did while also providing a cover for the SL. And they didn't even use a Magic Standard

- Then the Marauder Cavalry. Pure awesomeness, they lured one of his units to the far right of the table, rendering it useless, position itself at the back of his line in turn 2, ready to charge from the back in turn 3, while killing a detachment on the process (with just spears and 5 guys they did 3 wounds). I'm thinking a unit of this guys 10 strong, with axes and flais must be terrifying.


I also had some rules questions, but I guess the general forum would be best to ask them.

Also he wants a re-match at 2000 points, so I'm preparing a couple of new lists, with all the things I couldn't try the first time around (DP, Chimera, Infantry,BSB, Trolls/Ogres,) that I will post soon

Thanks for reading!


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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-08-13, 04:34 PM
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Glad to hear things went well for you!

Some observations:
-The hounds can fill a variety of rolls. You can use them to pull frenzied units out of position on charges, you can use them like you did to screen, you can use them as warmachine hunters, etc. I like to give them Vanguard, deploy them out on a flank to try to get my opponent to drop something over there, and then vanguard back toward the center, just like you did w/ the fast cav. Doesn't work as well if the opponent matches your drop w/ his own fast cav though.

-Chariots...like I said, they can get left behind easily in a cav list. In that list and w/ what you faced, pairing them up could have worked nicely. Dual charge a big unit and hope you don't roll 1s for both on impact hits. The basic rats will have a hard time getting through the T of the chariots and you could grind them down w/ a pair as long as you don't fluff attack rolls in later rounds.

-I'm guessing you may just have to give the crushers another go or 3 to see how they can best work for you. In 2K, you could go w/ a larger unit or go for 2 units of 3.

-People discount the knights because of the crushers. Chaos knights are still really good! I love my knights. 6 w/ MoK, ensorcelled weapons, standard, muso, and gleaming pennant ... love 'em.

-Marauder cav are best used the way you used them. They are good at the bait & flee, killing smaller units, hunting warmachines, etc. I've never used them in large units as I tend to play against a lot of shooting and they just don't have the armor to survive. I used to use 2 units of 5 or 6 (depending on game size) w/ MoS, flails, and muso to go after small units. If they were getting shot at instead of my main fighters, all the better. I generally use hounds w/ vanguard for that now as I can have more units of hounds. I've seen some people write lists that use units of 10 w/ MoN or MoK as medium cav. Never heard how they worked out though. The other popular thing is to take a sorc lord w/ Lore of Slaanesh on Steed of Slaanesh and put it in a unit of 9 hellstriders as a delivery system for the sorc. But that's mostly just for getting the sorc behind the enemy lines to go crazy w/ the spells.

-On the magic missile aimed at your sorc lord: he cannot specifically target a character in a unit w/ a magic missile unless the spell specifically says it can. It will basically work this way: Let's say he does a magic missile that does 2D6 S3 hits. He rolls 8 hits. In your unit of 6 knights + sorc, you would allocate one hit to every model and then allocate the leftover one to whomever you wanted. Most likely that would go onto a knight. He then rolls to wound and then just differentiate w/ a different colored die the 1 hit on the sorc. If he had only rolled 4 hits, you then get to allocate all those hits to just the knights. The only time he would be able to specifically target the sorc would be if the sorc was off on his own. And, even then, if you're w/in 3 or 4 inches (can't remember the exact range) of a unit that is the same unit type and has at least 5 models, you get a 4+ look out sir roll. If he was in a unit, he'd get a 2+ look out sir roll vs templates, warmachines, etc.

As far as if he did something wrong ... 3 units of 25 clanrats is nothing to write home about. They are pretty poor fighters and most units in the WoC book will mop them up. Anything in Chaos armor is vastly superior to clanrats. I think if he would have sat back and tried for a stronger magic phase he could have done a little better. Also, sounds like he forgot that he was stubborn in combat since he had more ranks than you (Steadfast rule). Skaven need the deep ranks since they're such poor fighters w/o any of the big toys. If he makes those 3 units 2 units instead he'd be headed in the right direction. Having the doomwheel may have made a big difference as well. That thing can be nasty. The 3 rat ogres are a bit meh. 4 in a 2x2 would be better, but I can't remember how it works w/ the pack master. He should never have charged his seer unit at you. Like you said, horrible mistake. Even if he does make it your knights go first and should do some decent damage while taking relatively little in return due to MoN and 1+ save. I'd say the end result was a good example of a strong list vs a weak one.



Last edited by KarnalBloodfist; 11-08-13 at 04:39 PM.
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-08-13, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Wow thanks for you're insight. Yeah I'd give the crushers another go (I even ordered the minis online), I don't think they're bad, just that they are not as superior to the knights as people say, as you point out too.

The screening use for the hounds is just to avoiid unwanted charges from my Khorne units? Because I remember in 6th edition they blocked los, but they don't do that anymore right? Maybe I remember wrong..

Regarding the steadfast I told him the same, that 2 unites would have been better than 3, but he wanted the 3 detatchments instead of 2. One of the units were superior rats thant clant rats (can't remember the name) but I raped them anyway. Actually, even if they were 2 units of 40 instead of 3 of 25, they would have hold, but next round I would have break them I think. Maybe he calculated his attacks wrong.

I was only afraid of his magic, so it seems that running a list without at least a lvl 4 at 1500pts is a bad idea, so for 2000pts I'd need also a lvl 4 and a low lvl caster mmm...I'm off to making those list, will post them shortly ;)
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-09-13, 08:30 AM Thread Starter
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as long as you don't fluff attack rolls in later rounds.

.
Btw what does that expression mean? I'm not a native speaker and never heard it before
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