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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-11, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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Default Strength vs Attacks

When it comes to choosing weapons/armor/items for Heroes/Lords, what would you say is the best when choosing between these two stats. I ask because as a Lizard player, my main opponent will be pretty inexperienced and will be fielding Orcs.

I've been thinking of builds for Oldbloods for awhile, and some of them, at least on the face of it, are pretty good.

For example, Oldbloods are Strength 5 Attack 5 and can have to up 100 points worth of magic items.

Now, using the Warhammer Rule Book Items, there are two 60 point items, one gives +3 Strength and one gives +3 Attacks. So you could then be fielding the Oldblood with Strength 8 or Attack 8. That's just 60 points, I was flicking back through at my Lizardman Book out of boredom and re-read the rules for Maiming Shield, while giving you normal protection of a shield it also gives +1 Attack, while being only a mere 30 points. So basically, assuming I took one of the Rule Book items, I could be fielding a Oldblood with either Strength 8 Attacks 6 OR Strength 5 and Attack an unbelievable 9. 9 attacks at Strength 5 is nothing to be sniffed at, you're going to doing some serious damage to the squisher races with 9 attacks. However, fielding one as a Strength 8 and Attack 6 monster means you'll practically hit through any toughness out-right (Unless you're unlucky) and do serious damage to the tougher figures outthere like the Orc Spider and the new Tomb Guard Sphinxs (Incidently, are so stupidly cheap it's insane). Also, you could then throw him ontop of a Horned One (As according to GW it counts as a Mount Upgrade, whether that means you PAY Cold One mount cost then put the additional cost of the Horned One or just pay for the Horned One) which is a nice upgrade as it removes Stupidity and increases movement by one, making it a total of 8. That makes him very fast allowing him to crash in pretty quickly. However I have a question, if I put a Lord on a Horned One, which does not suffer from Stupidity and then added the Lord to a unit of Cold One Cavalry (Which Cold Ones suffer from Stupidity) which of the following would the units Cold One mounts do?

1. Entire Unit becomes Stupidity Free
2. Entire Unit, including the added Lord becomes Stupid
3. Each one is separate
4. Each one is separate but due to them not being able to move together it refers to 1 or 2.

Also, I believe they then use Movement Speed of 8 if the Horned One is added?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer versus Orcs, which would be extra attacks, due to nothing him fielding is going to go above 4 toughness bar his lords and it'll help to cut down annoying goblins. But being able to wound on 2+ with Strength 8 hits, even on a 6 T model! But is it worth it in comparrson to 3 extra attacks at Strength 5?

I also had other builds, such as the +2 Attack / +2 Strength Swords PLUS Hide of the Cold Ones, which gives a tasty +1 Toughness, + Fear AND is Heavy Armor (It also gives Stupidity, but since it's a Leadership roll event, I believe, I'm not sure correct me if I'm wrong, Cold Blooded rule) which means you COULD field a Strength 5 (Or 7!) Toughness 6 Attacks 5 (Or 7!) coupled with an total armor save of +1! (Scaly Skin = +4 - 2 (Heavy Armor) - 1 from 6 pt shield = +1) which is a also pretty damn sexy build. Allowing you to take serious punishment as you have a pretty awesome 6 Toughness, +1 Armor save ontop of 5 Wounds AND dishing out 5 Strength 7 attacks (Or dishing out 7 Attacks at Strength 5). The option with Hide of the Cold One (which incidently is only useable on Foot figures) allows, if added to a group of Saurus (and why wouldn't you!) would allow the entire unit to cause Fear, which coupled with everything else is pretty awesome.

Sorry for the long post, but it's things like this that make me love the game. Which is why I love Fantasty over 40k currently. So many interesting builds.

Last edited by Troublehalf; 05-01-11 at 06:19 PM.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-11, 07:04 PM
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I normally prefer extra strength.. until you reach S6, after that point its going to be more attacks thats beneficial. Having said that 60pts is quite a lot of his magical items chunk and it leaves you very vulnerable- many characters have a higher initiative then an oldblood and they aren't that hard to kill if you dont protect them properly...
Uber agressive killing machines are great, but not if they're dead.

As for the CoKs- unless they have a special ruyle which changes it then having a model in the unit with the syupid rule means they are all stupid, irrispective of who it is. So they are still all stupid.
They also move at the rate of the slowest model... which makes the horned one upgrade look pretty redundant.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-11, 07:04 PM
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I personally would be inclined to say go with S5 A9(and do something with the other 10 points if it's worth it). Simply because you can still take down big beasties through sheer amount of saves, especially if you have a hard-hitting unit with the Oldblood. High Strength will only help with taking down armor saves, against monsters with wards, it won't help at all. Also, it will be much much better at taking down larger units.

As for Horned One in a unit of Cold Ones, my understanding is that the unit would keep its Stupidity, but the Oldblood wouldn't be subject to it(so, if they fail their stupidity you could always just move him out of the unit). If not, I'd let you do it anyway in the interest of fairness. But you also have to move at the speed of the slowest model in your unit, so you would be limited to M7.

All in all, they're all very nice builds, depending on what you want your Oldblood to do. When I get to those points ranges again(I'm restricting myself to not playing games until my army is painted), I'll keep these in mind. The S5 A9 or the S8 A6 build put on top of a Carnosaur would just be overkill though. Tasty, tasty, warm-blooded overkill.

The other thing you could try doing is putting him in a block of TG with Chakax and a Slann. Direct all the challenges towards Chakax(you'd have to anyway), put out magical death with the Slann, have the TG be your armor, and tear things apart with the Oldblood. Hmm, can an Oldblood on a Carnosaur join a TG unit? Been too long since I've played.

Last edited by Dragearen; 05-01-11 at 07:07 PM.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-11, 08:43 PM
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The issue of strength vs attacks depends a lot on the meta-game or the opponent. If playing a lot of lower T and lower AS units, obviously go for attacks. If you expect your oldblood to deal with high T and/or high AS models, then go for strength up to about S7 but not beyond. Some of the magic weapons in the Lizardmen book are very good and cheaper than the common magic items. My son runs an oldblood with a Lore of Life Slann not fully maximized in a TG unit at 2500 points and above and went 4-0-1 at one of the largest and most competitive (lots of nationally ranked players) at an Indy GT recently and 3-0 at a local one day tourney and has a consistent winning record this year. He is finding that the oldblood also works well with the Saurus unit and really is a very tough and resilient model when properly equiped. It needs protective magic items more than an expensive magic weapon in order to survive in combat and produce the ACR needed to protect the unit it is in and/or to take out challengers.

Until the points costs change, cold one cav are not points efficient for Lizardmen armies, especially with stupidity 9even with the cold blooded LD rule). You are much better running large blocks supporting salamanders, chameleon skinks and skinks going for war machines and protecting the flanks.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-11, 08:53 PM
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I personally prefer more attacks. S5 is plenty, and the game is far more infantry based now- meaning there is far fewer 1+/2+ saves to chew through. and as for big things, you can generally chew through those with combat res.

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-11, 09:10 PM
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Personally, I would take more of a look at defensive items. Armor of Destiny eats up 50 points of magic items, but gives you a 2+ armor and 4+ ward-save, which, combined with T5, will make the Oldblood practically unkillable if you have a Slann with Lore of Life, or just plain near unkillable without.

After that, you have several options, but I think that +2 attacks combined with a shield and some other 10 point magical item would be best. A Luckstone would be particularly good.

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-01-11, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for the replies!

Yeah, Lizardmen have stupidly low I, which is pretty depressing seeing as all you need is a magic focus army with Shadow Lore to take them down.

I think you are right about needing to protect the Oldblood in that respect, it could be killed before it does anything.

Strength 5 Attack 9 Oldblood ontop of a Carnosaur would be pretty insane, plus the save from mounts and the Ultimate Predator rule of the Carnosaur....

What did you think about the build with Hide of the Cold One? Which I think is about 50 points. That's Heavy Armor +1 Toughness +Fear +Stupidity. It will be a Foot Only model, but still, throwing Fear and being T6 is pretty nice.

I guess Armor of Destiny is better than Hide of the Old One due to the +4 save. Plus other weapons and stuff.

I did think of creating a "High Value Assassin" Oldblood. Taking Piranha Blade which causes any unsaved wound to be multipled to two wounds. The take Bane-Head which causes all unsaved wounds on a nominated target to be doubled. Both of them stack. So you do one wound, it turns to 2 wounds, then gets doubled, so 4. You can basically, if you nominated a high value target, like a Prince on a Dragon or something similar, you can practically one hit them. The Piranha Blade costs 35 points and the Bane Head 15. So for 50 points you can practically kill any character solo (as long as you don't die before then!). Then when your target is dead your Piranha Blade can be turned on anything else.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-19-11, 06:43 PM
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As lizardmen you're probably not looking at Lore of Beasts, but the Savage Beast of Horros spell gives +3 S & +3 Attacks. I love that on my vampire lord - give him the sword of striking, red fury & infinite hatred (9 attacks, 3's rerollable to hit, S8... generating additional attacks per wound generated - wiped out 16 frenzied halberd chaos warriors in one round of combat once). That spell gives you the balance of attacks & strength.

but aside I'd echo most everyone else & recommend # of attacks - better for chewing through rank & file & more chances to hit are always better (can't tell you how many times my characters with 4 attacks squard off against something they hit on 3's & wound on 2's only to hit once...)
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-20-11, 04:23 AM Thread Starter
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Just surprised at how squishy Oldbloods are apparently. However I'm sure popping Armor of Destiny and a +2 Attack Sword and something else will keep him going. Imagine then putting him ontop of a Carnosaur!

Yeah, I think Lizard players forget about the other Lores and just stick with Life (rightly so) but Tehenhauin is default Lore of Beasts, Lv.2 Wizard and knows all of them. Not only is his stat line pretty good for a Skink, he also has pretty niffty weapons. Ontop of that he summons a swarm to help fight and is Unbreakable. However, you could make him pretty awesome still and put him on an Ancient Stegadon, coupled with Engine of the Gods, he'll be not only dishing out magic attacks, buffing Krox, Saurus blocks (Krox 4S(+2 from GW) and 3 Attacks, with that buff the Krox would have 9S and 6A, coupled with Thunder Stomp and their Monster Infantry rule.. that's carnage!) Tehenhauin will also be dishing out I think S4(+1 from weapon when charging!) and A3... pretty good for a Skink, S5 on the charge and 3 attacks, on an Ancient Stegadon with EotG and the armor save.

Pretty expensive tho, and he takes up a Lord spot. But a fun unit and it means you don't need to sacrifice a Slann to get the Horros spell. Tho my army does have 4 Slann and Kroak.... <_<
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-20-11, 02:51 PM
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Here are two builds to consider.

Maiming Shield
Light armor
Sword of Strife
Potion of Strength
Cold One mount

This build gives you 8 attacks at S5 with the option of boosting it to S8 for a turn if you come up against anything big. As for defense, he's T5 with a 1+ armor save, with the option to reroll one failed armor save.

Or for a 'tankier' build:

Armor of Destiny
Great Weapon
Aura of Quetzl
Cold One mount

This variation has a 4+ Ward save in addition to a 1+ Armor save that can be rerolled once per game. Combined with the Aura of Quetzl, which makes anyone attacking him -1 to hit, most things will only hit him on a 5+. And with all this defense, he's still churning out 5 attacks at S7, albeit with ASL. However, ASL is much less of a problem when he's nigh impossible to hurt.

Last edited by HiveMinder; 05-20-11 at 02:55 PM.
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