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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-11-10, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Default Poisoning War Machines

I've started building a Lizardmen army, but I'm running my Dwarfs at the moment whilst I learn the 8th edition rules. I therefore have no axe to grind on this question.

It says that when you shoot at a war machine you use the T of the machine rather than the crew to determine whether you cause a wound (see page 109). Thus 12 Str 3 shots might cause 1 wound (say 4 to hit and 6 to wound) on a typical T7 machine. However the Poisoned Weapons rule says that any 6 rolled when rolling to hit causes a wound automatically. Thus if those 12 Str3 shots were poisoned (eg from a Skink blowpipe) you would expect 3 wounds on the machine - enough to take most machines out of play.

It does seem odd to me that Poisoned works on inanimate objects. It made sense in 7th where hits were allocated between machine and crew - the crew would be vulnerable to poison - but here it is explicit in saying that the shots are resolved against the machine's T and you would think this reflected the fact that the machine is made of wood and/or metal.

I've looked to try and find something that says Poisoned doesn't work on war machines, but failed.

So am I correct in thinking that skirmisdhers with Poisoned shooting are deadly to war machines, or have I over-looked a rule?

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TT
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-11-10, 05:08 PM
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Unfortunately your are correct in realizing, like many of us, that games workshop screwed up without making the war machines immune to poison attacks. Thus the best way to deal with warmachines is to send poison shooting at them if you can.

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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-11-10, 10:37 PM
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If you want to poison them, take a piss in an oil can then apply the oil. Oh you meant in a game? Yeah, GW failed yet again in the land of super mega retarded stuff!


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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-11-10, 10:59 PM
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Oh you meant the 8th Edition Rulebook? Yeah, GW failed yet again in the land of super mega retarded stuff!
Fixed. And yes, Poison works versus War Machines. Because you know, hiding behind a War Machine as cover makes you tougher than a Dragon.



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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-12-10, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Truthteller View Post
It does seem odd to me that Poisoned works on inanimate objects. It made sense in 7th where hits were allocated between machine and crew - the crew would be vulnerable to poison - but here it is explicit in saying that the shots are resolved against the machine's T and you would think this reflected the fact that the machine is made of wood and/or metal.

I've looked to try and find something that says Poisoned doesn't work on war machines, but failed.

So am I correct in thinking that skirmisdhers with Poisoned shooting are deadly to war machines, or have I over-looked a rule?

Thanks
TT
You are correct. And why should war machines be immune. whilst the machine is immune, the crew is not, and using the machine's toughness merely represents the crew taking cover behind their machine. The poison rule is a on a 6 to hit, and hence represents the skink getting an ace shot on one of the crew, you know, hitting a major artery or something, so the poison spreads quickly, killing them. It doesn't wound the war machine, but the people who can use it.

Makes perfect sense.

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-12-10, 10:32 AM
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Much like becoming Tougher than a dragon just because you decided to hide behind a piece of wood?



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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-12-10, 11:44 AM
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Much like becoming Tougher than a dragon just because you decided to hide behind a piece of wood?
Fair enough. I was talking about the poison making sense.

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-13-10, 11:23 AM
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So presumably if you shot poison attacks at a cannon, if you roll a six it means you have hit the crew hiding behind the cannon, since you use the amount of crew as the amount of wounds. That poison shot immediately poison the crew member but then you get their armour save? if you have already poisoned, how does armour save you?
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-13-10, 01:14 PM
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The same way you poison skeletons: that's the rules.

Think of it as the armor keeps you from getting the full immediately lethal dose. The victim may still die, but it'll be after the battle.

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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-13-10, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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I think the point is that the rules have changed to simplify how war machines are taken out, but in doing so GW have over-looked the Poisoned Weapons effect.

Under 7th a typical war machine consisted of the machine (T7, W3) plus the crew (T3, W3 (assuming a typical 3 man crew)). To take the warmachine out through shooting you had to either kill all the crew or kill the machine. If your shootings were Str3 then only 1/3rd of those hot the crew. Of those only 1/2 wounded. So you would need to inflict 18 hits on the machine to take it out. And that was the easy way - 18 hits on the machine would yield 12 hits allocated to the machine itself - assuming you could wound on a 6+ that would not destroy the machine.

In 8th the whole thing - crew plus machine - are reduced to an aggregate 3 wounds. To compensate, you have to wound against the machine's T. If you are dealing with ordinary (non-Poisoned ) shooting, it turns out you still need 18 hits to take down the machine and its crew.

What GW has forgotten is that increasing the T of the target being shot at may compensate for halving its wounds with ordinary shooting but it has very little effect if the shooting is with Poisoned Weapons. The consequence is that certain armies (Lizzies and Skaven come to mind) have received a huge (and undoubtedly unintentional) buff to the effectiveness of their skirmishers, whilst armies which rely on war machines (Dwarf, Empire) get a kick in the nuts.

What's particularly frustrating is that the boneheads at GW could have achieved their aim (simplifying shooting at a war machine) without creating this shift in game balance for certain armies. All they had to do was reduce the aggregate wounds to the number of the crew, say shooting attacks were to be resolved against the crew's T and armour, then give the crew a 4+ ward save because they can hide behind the machine.

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TT
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