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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-12, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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Default Invocation of Nehek and Characters

With the coming of the new VC book, it seems a popular topic of debate is whether IoN can affect characters. The rules, are a little murky, so here's what we have to work with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VC Army Book, pg.26 "Resurrecting Fallen Warriors"
Some magic spells and items can resurrect fallen warriors in an Undead uint by restoring a number of Wounds' worth of models to the unit. If the target consists of a single model, such as a lone character or a Corpse cart, then it can never exceed its starting Wounds value.
And then later in the rule:

[quote=VC Army Book, pg.26 "Resurrecting Fallen Warriors"]A unit cannot usually be taken beyond its starting size, though certain powers, spells and special rules may provide exceptions. Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts. If a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost Wounds.]

And, just for completeness, here's the BRB rule for Lone Characters:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRB, pg.96 "Lone Characters"
Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes.
So here's my synopsis of the problem. The first quote mentions lone characters, clearly indicating that they are viable targets of IoN. The second quote is dealing with the extent to which IoN can affect a unit. It is basically saying that 1) The unit cannot exceed its starting size, unless stated otherwise, and 2) If the unit has a character joined to it, the character cannot benefit from IoN.

So, as I understand the rule, lone characters can benefit from IoN, but if they join a unit, they will not.

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-12, 04:19 PM
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That is my understanding as well, a Lone vampire can heal a wound from IoN but not if he's in a unit.

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-12, 05:43 PM
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Agreed a character or its mount (if separate wounds) can heal a wound with Nehek if not attached to a unit. I think the discussion in the box on resurrecting wounds is pretty clear on this. However, does the lore attribute also potentially allows a second wound to be restored for successfully casting an augment given the rule that only 1 wound can be restored for each casting of Nehek?
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-26-12, 05:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olderplayer View Post
Agreed a character or its mount (if separate wounds) can heal a wound with Nehek if not attached to a unit. I think the discussion in the box on resurrecting wounds is pretty clear on this. However, does the lore attribute also potentially allows a second wound to be restored for successfully casting an augment given the rule that only 1 wound can be restored for each casting of Nehek?
I don't see why not. The lore attribute is a separate effect, not a bonus tacked on to the spell being cast, therefore it doesn't interfere with IoN's stipulation that vampires may only recover a single wound. However, it should be noted that while the IoN wound could be given to the mount or character, the lore attribute can ONLY effect the character (assuming he was the one who cast the spell).

And secondly, the Vampires lore attribute, Curse of Undeath, triggers with ANY successful spell cast from the Lore, not just augment spells as your post suggests. I think you're confusing them with the Tomb Kings, whose lore attribute does only trigger on augment spells.


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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-02-12, 08:26 PM
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I would argue that invocation cannot affect characters at all because Resurrecting Fallen Warriors states "Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts." Nowhere in IoN does it say that it can be used on characters however the lore attribute says "The Wizard (or another friendly model within 12") instantly recovers a single Wound lost earlier in the battle." The wizard being a character implies that characters can be affected by the lore attribute, and this is why Resurrecting Fallen Warriors states that individual models can't be taken above starting size simply for the purpose of regaining wounds from the lore attribute. I think people are reading too much into this. As I said nowhere in invocation does it specifically state that characters can be affected. Until an FAQ comes out I will continue to play my VC with rules as written.

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-02-12, 10:26 PM
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Interesting point. I do believe that an FAQ does need to clarify this issue. The importance of the proviso "Unless specifically stated otherwise..." should be read in the context of the language of the Nehek spell itself and the rest of the text box on page 26. If you read the text box on page 26, it earlier clearly states that "If the target consists of a single model, such as a lone character or a Corpse Cart, then it can never exceed its starting Wounds value" and the last sentence says, "If a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost Wounds." Nehek targets "all friendly Undead units" within range. A lone character model is considered a unit in WHFB. These imply to me that lone character models can be targetted by Nehek when not attached to units of other models.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-02-12, 10:35 PM
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I agree with olderplayer's interpretation.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-03-12, 11:47 PM
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Then you have to ask yourself is it "specifically stating" that the characters can be targeted or are you just assuming so based on the fact that they are technically a "unit". Furthermore the text box on page 26 is referring to regaining wounds from any source, not just IoN, which includes the lore attribute which does specifically state "The Wizard" meaning it specifically states a character. However that character or single model (corpse cart, mortis engine, vhargulf etc) can not go above its starting number of wounds. IoN doesn't specify characters but can still affect units characters join, but you can't put the wounds on the character that joined that unit. This is what the rules are trying to convey.
If you read IoN it clarifies how many wounds each of the unit types can gain, although it lists infantry, it does not list infantry (characters), since it doesn't tell you anywhere in the spell how the spell affects characters but does clarify every other unit type I think your loose assumption that characters are units is a wishful stretch. However the best solution obviously is to discuss it with your local gaming group, and get a common consensus of how they wish to treat it until the FAQ gets released.

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Last edited by Warsmith Drewgie; 02-04-12 at 12:09 AM.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-04-12, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warsmith Drewgie View Post
...is it "specifically stating" that the characters can be targeted or are you just assuming so based on the fact that they are technically a "unit"....

...although it lists infantry, it does not list infantry (characters), since it doesn't tell you anywhere in the spell how the spell affects characters....
I think your analysis is backwards:

(1) the BRB states that lone characters are units;

(2) the type infantry (character) is a character that follows the rules of infantry;

Therefore, as the spell lacks any rule preventing characters from being affected it affects them as infantry, with the cap imposed by the regaining wounds rules.

Seeking consensus form your group before playing is an excellent idea though.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-05-12, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave T Hobbit View Post
Therefore, as the spell lacks any rule preventing characters from being affected it affects them as infantry, with the cap imposed by the regaining wounds rules.
The VC book says that-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampire Counts Army Book
Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts.
And Invocation doesn't specifically state that it can affect characters. The Lore attribute would allow the caster to heal himself, though, as that is specific ("The Wizard").
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