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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-05-12, 11:02 AM
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Drat you Forkbanger with your correct answers.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-06-12, 01:44 AM
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I have to agree with Warsmith on this one.

We seem to be debating whether we can circumvent a models "character" appelation, by simply stating that it is also a unit, and therefore under certain conditions it becomes eligible to be healed.

Unfortunately, at no point does it ever lose its "character" description. It is ALSO a unit, certainly, but its still tagged as a character so we must take that into account, and not simply gloss over it when its a single model.

At no point does IoN "specifically state" that it may be cast on characters, so it cant be cast on characters. Its really as simple as it sounds.

Character healing has been worked into the book with the magic lore attribute, and the Vamps combat healing rules. That does leave some of the character options with no healing, but we all know Vamps and Necromancers are a pain to kill completely, so it fits fluff-wise.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-06-12, 02:06 PM
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Interesting responses. I have a major tourney coming up this weekend and expect this issue to arise. I agree that it appears that the intent was to not let characters heal directly from Nehek given the language in the box, but rather to heal characters through the Lore attribute (which also applies whemn Danse and Vigor and the other spells are cast in range of a character), but the way the language is written appears to imply that lone character models can be targetted and get their one wound directly from Nehek and I expect to see someone argue that at some point for a character on a coven throne and monstrous mount. The spell hits/targets all units within range and a lone character is a unit under the rules. The rules says characters cannot benefit unless specifically allowed, which they are when not in units. The box rule and Nehek spell as written leave an ambiguity there that I expect some VC players to exploit.

Last edited by olderplayer; 02-06-12 at 02:10 PM.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-06-12, 02:13 PM
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Ressurecting Fallen Warriors is really poorly worded but this is a very edge case where it might work as it does say that it unless otherwise stated it cannot heal Characters or Their mounts which to me say they cannot heal someone on a Coven Throne but if it was just the Vampire by themselves they maybe could.

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-06-12, 05:04 PM
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Agreed. The first part of the rules box on page 26 seems to imply that a lone character model can recover a wound. The important words are in the Nehek spell it says "all friendly Undead units" within range are targetted and, when combined with BRB, pg.96 "Lone Characters", "Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes." would suggest that lone characters can be targetted by the spell, providing the exception to the rule in the text box on page 26 of the VC book that "Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts."
I think that the issue is about as clear as mud.

Think about it this way: a corpse cart within range of a cast Nehek spell can regain a lost wound, but, if some are correct in their reading of the text on page 26 of the VC army book, then a corpse cart with a Necromanser on it cannot regain a lost wound when Nehek is cast within range.

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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-12, 01:05 AM
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Once again, GW badly word a rule and leave it to players to sort it out eh? Typical.

I think what convinces me most is the somewhat round about definition of when a character is not a character.

As others have suggested, a lone character acts as its unit type and has all applicable rules. Sounds straight forward, but when you have to go digging around the rulebook to find a work-around, its difficult to mesh that with the phrase "specifically states".

If you have to find, for want of a better term, a work-around, then the rule in question cant be "specifically stating" anything. Its ambiguously suggesting.

For me, its simpler in my mind to call a character a character at all times, and apply the restrictions from there.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.


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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-12, 02:20 PM
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Bounced this off a number of players, including VC players, on our local club site. At least until an FAQ, the impression is that the specifically states language limits the ability to apply Nehek to characters to the lore attribute even if there are subtle inconsistencies in the language as written. It is really hard to write perfect rules, as I have learned when writing objectives and special rules for local one-day tournament games. Given how well the VC book was written in terms of balancing the points and rules, I will not criticize the author for one or two instances where one might have missed something or not clarified a rule enough. I suspect that the author pulled language from the old book and realized that, with the Vampire lore attribute, one could abuse Nehek to regain two wounds on a character with a single spell and wanted to rule that out. Under the reading that our group has tentatively agreed to or understood, a lone character and its mount cannot regrow a wound with Nehek even if the monstrous mount or chariot mount would be able to regain a wound if their was no character mounted on it.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-12, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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So, we are all in agreement that a lone character is considered a unit for game purposes. And, if we ignore the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule for just a moment, it would be a valid target for IoN, as it is a unit.

Okay. So, since it is a valid target, let's look at Resurrecting Fallen Warriors, which is an addendum to 'spells and items that restore lost wounds'. As IoN is a spell, it is affected by the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule. As many have said, "Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells or items cannot heal characters or their mounts", would prevent characters from being healed by IoN, because IoN doesn't specifically say so.

However, it DOES specifically say earlier in the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule that Lone Characters can be affected by spells and items that restore lost wounds (IoN). So, yes, IoN doesn't specifically state it, but the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule specifically states it.

Furthermore, lone characters with mounts are still lone character units. So, any wound they regain from IoN could be applied to either the mount OR the character, as IoN says that the unit regains a wound.

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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-08-13, 03:46 AM
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IoN does specifically say "all friendly Undead units" which overrides that part at the bottom on RFW about not healing characters.

Characters that are undead can be healed.

Keep in mind the rules in RFW are for any and all other armies as well. So if you play a mixed army, the army that is not Undead can't regain wounds from IoN. So any other spell from other Lores or items that heal wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts. (unless the spell specifically says.)

It's all worded to make sure you are only using IoN on the VC army.

Heal your lone characters and their mounts!!!
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