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post #31 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-11, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy View Post
I will give an example.

Sisters Repentia cost 17 points, has an Eviscerator, FNP, Rage, Fleet, Fearless, Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith. They have the Spirit of the Martyr AoF which allows a model killed in assault to still be able to make a single attack...

My suggestions were simple. 14-15pts each, Holy Rage, Fleet, Fearless, Adepta Sororitas (allowed to use Acts of Faith). Spirit of the Martyr as a unit special rule so that they could use it even if killed in your opponents turn and without having to make a test to see if you could do it. The option to take a transport but once you left it you may not embark on another one for any reason.
There's no question that the WD codex was a hastily thrown together piece that messed up a lot of things, but it isn't terrible enough to warrant a 50 page rebuttal either. I'm not certain most of the net wishlists are that desirable either, or any more play tested.

Taking the example here, sisters repentia are one of the main components of my army, and I rely on them to accomplish a lot. I would love a dedicated transport so I don't have to load them up in the backfield on turn one, I would love for their AoF to be automatic, I like holy rage but I see how it complicates things needlessly.

But I look at your proposed changes, and I don't see any kind of save. With 6++ and feel no pain, I can count on my repentia winning the majority of combats they get into, and I can generally count on them hitting at least two more units, albeit with diminishing returns and numbers. They get far more done than my death cultists, certainly. Without these saves, I doubt they would win even their first combat, and getting off a few spirit of the martyr hits doesn't even begin to cover the loss of utility. They would never survive a counter charge. I can't see taking that unit, even with the point drop.

On the other hand, if they have some kind of 4++ save (like they used to have) AND the changes you have made, you would be a fool not to take them at that price. Losing the 6++ on top of the 4+ would hurt a bit, but losing the vulnerability to instant death is more than worth it. I'd love that unit, but people would call cheese, and rightly so. Repentia have a larger threat range, are more durable, and can kill a much wider range of targets than DCA. At 14 points, improved abilities and a transport, they would be a steal.

Your changes either take away all their weaknesses, or turn them into a suicide unit that will generally die *before* getting off their suicide attacks. I'm not sure I think either direction is an appropriate way to go - but if you have to convince games Workshop of one, I suppose I would prefer the former

Honestly, the only fix I feel repentia need is a dedicated transport, and maybe a way for the mistress to override rage for a turn when you really need to nudge them another direction.

No matter how great your triumphs, nor how tragic your defeats, approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
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post #32 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-11, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HollowMan View Post
There's no question that the WD codex was a hastily thrown together piece that messed up a lot of things, but it isn't terrible enough to warrant a 50 page rebuttal either. I'm not certain most of the net wishlists are that desirable either, or any more play tested.

Taking the example here, sisters repentia are one of the main components of my army, and I rely on them to accomplish a lot. I would love a dedicated transport so I don't have to load them up in the backfield on turn one, I would love for their AoF to be automatic, I like holy rage but I see how it complicates things needlessly.

But I look at your proposed changes, and I don't see any kind of save. With 6++ and feel no pain, I can count on my repentia winning the majority of combats they get into, and I can generally count on them hitting at least two more units, albeit with diminishing returns and numbers. They get far more done than my death cultists, certainly. Without these saves, I doubt they would win even their first combat, and getting off a few spirit of the martyr hits doesn't even begin to cover the loss of utility. They would never survive a counter charge. I can't see taking that unit, even with the point drop.

On the other hand, if they have some kind of 4++ save (like they used to have) AND the changes you have made, you would be a fool not to take them at that price. Losing the 6++ on top of the 4+ would hurt a bit, but losing the vulnerability to instant death is more than worth it. I'd love that unit, but people would call cheese, and rightly so. Repentia have a larger threat range, are more durable, and can kill a much wider range of targets than DCA. At 14 points, improved abilities and a transport, they would be a steal.

Your changes either take away all their weaknesses, or turn them into a suicide unit that will generally die *before* getting off their suicide attacks. I'm not sure I think either direction is an appropriate way to go - but if you have to convince games Workshop of one, I suppose I would prefer the former

Honestly, the only fix I feel repentia need is a dedicated transport, and maybe a way for the mistress to override rage for a turn when you really need to nudge them another direction.
If you read more of the posts closer you will see it wasn't meant as a rebuttal, but as trying to help with ideas/rules to use or not use as they see fit.

Also the rules about repentia were not on their own without other rules changes. It is hard to really comment on exact point costs of units without knowing the other rules.

Some of the posts also describe how you can submit ideas of your own, even hints on writing styles/ways to make it easier to read. Anyone is free to submit something better.

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post #33 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-02-11, 10:22 PM
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I'm actually working on something myself (I've got some ideas I'm trying to tweak out, like a Witch Hunter for some anti-psyker goodness for the army, a generic Living Saint HQ choice and a few other ideas I've been kicking around (fast pred with Inferno Cannon or Melta Cannon (or maybe non-fast?) options).

Anyways, I'm still trying to polish the ideas and work on some more since the whole thing is still pretty rough in my head.
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post #34 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-03-11, 09:37 PM
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I do too, but there are two levels to a redesign:
1. All the current models, no new ones, and as close to the WD Dex as possible
2. Wish listing it/total new real codex design with new models possibly added etc.

Either way, it is hard to decide on some army-wide concept rules that define the army, make them fun to play, different than other current armies, still allow different builds within the army, etc.

Seems like that is the first step to me anyway.

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post #35 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-04-11, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I do too, but there are two levels to a redesign:
1. All the current models, no new ones, and as close to the WD Dex as possible
2. Wish listing it/total new real codex design with new models possibly added etc.

Either way, it is hard to decide on some army-wide concept rules that define the army, make them fun to play, different than other current armies, still allow different builds within the army, etc.

Seems like that is the first step to me anyway.
I'm shooting for a number #2 myself, working on something comprehensive/fair to submit in for them to use (well, maybe...they don't have to use any of my suggestions. I just want to offer something that I'd play AND would be willing to have played against me).
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