Sisters of Battle codex reply from Cruddace - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Wargaming News and 40k Rumors Discuss and share wargaming news, new releases, warhammer and 40k rumors here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 12:33 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 398
Reputation: 2
Default

I still don't see why giving your material to GW precludes doing whatever else you want to with it. You still own rights to it even if you give GW the right to use anything.

At best I would expect them to only use a portion of whatever you wrote, to be released at some far point in the future. It would never be of use to people trying to predict what rules they would release. It really wouldn't be usefull to any of us on the forums either TBH, so I guess it doesn't matter that way either.

Well maybe I'll submit something myself to them in the future here, it won't be 50 pages though. Mostly it is finding out what the niche playstyle for the army is that really determines how to write the book.

Like do you give them even more special weapons to make them really deadly in ranged combat, but leave them lacking in assaults? With all the short range weapons for them this is almost the definition of their niche, although GK follow this somewhat also but are good in assaults too.

Wife: "How much do you have invested in these ... miniatures?"

Me: "I don't think invested is the right word."
Suijin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 07:51 AM
Innovative Forge-Lord
 
Cypher871's Avatar
Cypher871's Flag is: England
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Doncaster, South Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 2,579
Reputation: 9
Default

I have to agree with Suijin MCC, how does a letter you wrote become the property of GW. Did you sign a non disclosure document stating that you agree to not to divulge any of the content you wrote or are they simply blackmailing you threatening not to act on anything you sent if you release it to the general public?

I had stuff published in the Citadel Journal years ago - it still remains my property. I am no legal whizz and I don't get this.
Cypher871 is offline  
post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
yostu's Avatar
yostu's Flag is: Italy
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Italy
Posts: 132
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy View Post
Since they came out with the WD dex I see no reason for them to publish a proper book with models any time soon. I fear that we are in for a very long wait before the Sisters get the codex they deserve. Blood Angels had to wait 3 years before they got a proper codex, does this mean the Sisters will get a new codex in 3 years?
Personally I'm hoping for a release within 2 years but you never know, I wonder if all space marine codices will get updated again before the Sisters get a proper book, it wouldn't surprise me.

What the rumours say is basically that after Necrons there might be 1 codex released before 6E and that once 6E hits it will be Black Templars vs Chaos Legions (new CSM book) in the starter set. A starter set with 2 space marine armies in it... as if the market wasn't already flooded with sm models.
Anyway, after this there are rumours on Tau and Eldar.

Here is my personal guess.
Black Templars
Chaos Legions
Tau
Dark Angels
Eldar
Space Marines
Orks
Blood Angels
Tyranids
Space Wolves
Chaos Daemons
A new space marine army
WD update for Sisters of Battle
7th Edition

It's actually not unlikely. If GW could get away with it they'd have a codex for every single Space Marine Chapter. This would on the other hand lead to codicies getting updated once every 30 years.
please stop with thoose marines-noob-armyes.. 80% of the world play marines (americans mostly) pffff... boring..
ofc GW will pop up marine codexes every 2 month.. also if there are lots of other armies needing of refreshing..

..everithing is good.. in hive fleet stomach..
yostu is offline  
 
post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 01:57 PM
Innovative Forge-Lord
 
Cypher871's Avatar
Cypher871's Flag is: England
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Doncaster, South Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 2,579
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yostu View Post
please stop with thoose marines-noob-armyes.. 80% of the world play marines (americans mostly) pffff... boring..
ofc GW will pop up marine codexes every 2 month.. also if there are lots of other armies needing of refreshing..
Upon what evidence do you base your assumptions? 80% of the world plays Marine Armies (not armyes by the way). This would mean that four fifths of GW's total income for the 40K range is solely from Marine armies...I think not.

If you were to carry out some research I think you would find a good spread of all the armies in use across the 40K playing world.

Do you have a particular problem with our American cousins? There are just as many players who like to play 'other races' for their unique challenges, look, background and general coolness as there are players of Marine armies.

I for example have a Marine army of my own devising but I also play Tau. When I first started playing 40K way back in 1990 my army was Eldar and remained so for nearly 10 years...I didn't start playing Marines for a long old time, in fact I was so used to using my Eldar I found Marines a bit difficult to get used to at first.

Marines will always be the poster boys for 40K but that doesn't exclude the merits of all the other races. Indeed you are correct that there are other armies that need a refresh but GW will always work on those armies they deem to be the most lucrative first. That's why the Sisters of Battle were relegated to a crappy WD release...there are a hard core of Sisters players but not nearly enough (in GW's eyes) to justify a full blown Codex.
Cypher871 is offline  
post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 02:33 PM
Senior Member
 
elmir's Avatar
elmir's Flag is: Belgium
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arendonk/Antwerp/Belgium
Posts: 1,457
Reputation: 43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypher871 View Post

Marines will always be the poster boys for 40K but that doesn't exclude the merits of all the other races. Indeed you are correct that there are other armies that need a refresh but GW will always work on those armies they deem to be the most lucrative first. That's why the Sisters of Battle were relegated to a crappy WD release...there are a hard core of Sisters players but not nearly enough (in GW's eyes) to justify a full blown Codex.
I'm still hoping the true renaissance of dark eldar (and hell, even demonhunters in the form of GKs) will teach GW that a solid release will sell, no matter how big/small the previous fanbase might have been.

I really hope the necrons exceed their expectations of sales again, so imperial stuff will take the backseat for a while in releases, just so the xenos can catch up. Not that I have anything against imperial armies (I only play imperial atm), but I do think xenos players in general deserve some of the love.
elmir is offline  
post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 03:35 PM
Senior Member
 
Azezel's Avatar
Azezel's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Isle of Wight
Posts: 1,137
Reputation: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yostu View Post
please stop with thoose marines-noob-armyes.. 80% of the world play marines (americans mostly) pffff... boring..
ofc GW will pop up marine codexes every 2 month.. also if there are lots of other armies needing of refreshing..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypher871 View Post
Upon what evidence do you base your assumptions? 80% of the world plays Marine Armies (not armyes by the way). This would mean that four fifths of GW's total income for the 40K range is solely from Marine armies...I think not.

If you were to carry out some research I think you would find a good spread of all the armies in use across the 40K playing world.

Of the seven most regular atendees at my club, four play Marines exclusively, one plays Marines and non-Marines. Only two of us do not play Marines.

If one includes everyone who has ever played 40k at the club, the number of people who don't play Marines is... three. One member has Three marine armies.


It is very very difficult to over-estimate the Marine saturation.

Last I heard, Marines accounted for fully half of GW's income. That is to say, as much as every non-Marine 40k army, AND every Fantasy Army AND Lord of the Rings AND specialist games combined.

That's why GW will continue to push them.

It is a given that there will be a new Marine codex every nine months or so. We don't have to like it, but that's how it is.

Looking for a friendly wargaming club on the Isle of Wight? Drop me a line.

Sisters of Battle - The Order of Glory Undimmed - 2'500 Points | High Elves - House Cyredeth - 2'500 Points | Bretonnians - The Muster of Sir Jules Estelle - 3'000 Points
Azezel is offline  
post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 04:49 PM
Member
 
Revarien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Reputation: 1
Default

First, thanks MCC for the heads up... I hope my inferno/promethium grenade for dangerous terrain tests was in there, and just the acknowledgement that they were missing 'flavor' ... but it really sounds like he read it... I've received the 'thanks for the letter'-letter before and it actually sounds like he took the time to read it... I wonder if they were hurting for ideas on Sisters of Battle.

Second, to the 'marine's make up 80% of the player base, especially in the US'-comment... I really don't see that here in Oklahoma, US. At my FLGS, I own marines (hard not to at .50$ USD/per marine offerings), they are even painted, but I don't play them (sisters, crons and daemons are my favorites), and I'm only 1 of 3 at our shop that owns marines... out of about 12-13 players... I'd say far more people own orks, tau, and daemons. Also, at one of the conventions hosted in Oklahoma this last year, I can count only 3 pure marine players (vulkan list, blood angels, calgar list) and 1 daemonhunters (was right before grey knight codex popped out), if you want to include them. This was out of 18 folks.

Though, there were a lot of Dark Eldar, Eldar, Daemons and Chaos Marine players.

Anywho, my thoughts on it are that folks own marines because they are easy to attain... not because they play them much: remember, Marines make up 50% of every starter set release... of course they'll make up a ton of people's overall collection, there are a TON floating around on the 2nd hand market.
Revarien is offline  
post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 05:10 PM
Token Trans Mod
 
Zion's Avatar
Zion's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: On the internet.
Posts: 6,385
Reputation: 103
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy View Post
Yes, I believe I did.
Sweet. That's something that's bugged for a while. I know it only affects the Sisters when they get up into WS 7/8 area for hitting on 5s, but a veteran Sister hitting Joe Blow, Adverage Guardsman on 4s seems a bit silly when most of the other Veterans of the force hit the same Guardsman on 3s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I still don't see why giving your material to GW precludes doing whatever else you want to with it. You still own rights to it even if you give GW the right to use anything.

At best I would expect them to only use a portion of whatever you wrote, to be released at some far point in the future. It would never be of use to people trying to predict what rules they would release. It really wouldn't be usefull to any of us on the forums either TBH, so I guess it doesn't matter that way either.

Well maybe I'll submit something myself to them in the future here, it won't be 50 pages though. Mostly it is finding out what the niche playstyle for the army is that really determines how to write the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypher871 View Post
I have to agree with Suijin MCC, how does a letter you wrote become the property of GW. Did you sign a non disclosure document stating that you agree to not to divulge any of the content you wrote or are they simply blackmailing you threatening not to act on anything you sent if you release it to the general public?

I had stuff published in the Citadel Journal years ago - it still remains my property. I am no legal whizz and I don't get this.
Because of this:

Quote:

Who owns the ideas that I submit to you?
For legal reasons we will only accept your submission if you agree to assign all intellectual property rights in it to us. This means that by making a submission you automatically give Games Workshop ownership and exclusive rights to use your submission for any purpose. It is important that you are comfortable with this before making a submission to us. Please do not make a submission if you do not agree to this.
It's the magic of consent. By sending them something you are consenting that they now own the idea. So by making the submission of that 50 page document MadCowCrazy was giving GW consent to make it their legal property. Hence why MadCowCrazy can't share it now.
Zion is offline  
post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
Banned
MadCowCrazy's Flag is: Aaland
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Burning Depths of Hell
Posts: 2,452
Reputation: 11
Default

As for my document I made a verbal agreement with Ben at games day whom was the only one there to accept my document and it's also posted on GWs website under user submitted material in the legal section. Basically everything in it became GW property that they may use in whatever way they want. It's basically a way of making sure they could actually use anything of what I had written without the risk of getting sued for copyright infringement.

I may still hold the rights to it as the author but GW also has the rights to do as they please with the document. You could write the best codex in the world but unless you agreed to give GW copyright of it they would never use it.

I wrote the document for a single purpose, to give it to Robin Cruddace to point out what I see as flaws in the WD Codex. It's all just my own opinions put to paper with ideas on how to fix it, how it could work and how to balance it. It's not much different from anyone writing to them telling them their shit sucks, the only difference with my document is that I do it in a polite, constructive and creative way. I not only explain why certain things are bad or poorly balanced I provide examples using math, suggest changes and provide the math for it.

The WD dex could be awesome if there were just some slight tweaks to it, new faith system, new wargear, change in points costs, rules and statlines.

I will give an example.

Sisters Repentia cost 17 points, has an Eviscerator, FNP, Rage, Fleet, Fearless, Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith. They have the Spirit of the Martyr AoF which allows a model killed in assault to still be able to make a single attack.

There are many things wrong with this unit, first of all it's too expensive for what you get. I compare it to Death Cults, Arco-Flagellants and Crusaders.
Death Cult hit at high initiative, with average Strength, has good WS and 4 attacks on the charge.
Arco-Flagellants hit at below average initiative, at average Strength, with good WS and 5 attacks on the charge (should be 6 as they come with 2 arco-flails but it only counts as a single ccw).
Crusaders hits at below average initiative, at below average Strength, has average WS and 2 attacks on the charge but has great survivability.
Sisters Repentia hits at I1, with very high Strength, has average WS and 3 attacks on the charge.

They are all basically extremes of one another with Death Cults being at the top because of power weapons, many attacks and high initiative. Repentia has a good number of attacks, that hit very hard but they also hit at I1, on top of this they have Rage, have no dedicated transport though you could get them into one but you have to bunch up your vehicles so as to block line of sight to the nearest enemy unit to do so. Their save is FNP and they have Fearless on top of this, as they have to run across the board in most cases they will simply get shot down before they can even make it into assault. They only get a 7-12" run move each turn. They might have a 18" threat range but you have to be very good with your run and perhaps difficult terrain rolls for this.

Rage makes them extremely easy to predict and in most cases I'd expect your opponent to get the charge on them, did I mention their AoF doesn't work in your opponents turn so if he charges them they wont get the 50% chance to be allowed to hit back with 1 attack even if killed?

Sure they got cheaper than before but they also received nerfs in the form of movement speed, Holy Rage is actually better than Rage and Fleet put together. The reason is with Holy Rage your threat range is still 18" but you also have the chance of moving 18" in a turn (Holy Rage move +D6, plus run move) wile Range and Fleet has a max movement of 12" regardless.

My suggestions were simple. 14-15pts each, Holy Rage, Fleet, Fearless, Adepta Sororitas (allowed to use Acts of Faith). Spirit of the Martyr as a unit special rule so that they could use it even if killed in your opponents turn and without having to make a test to see if you could do it. The option to take a transport but once you left it you may not embark on another one for any reason.
As for the Mistress her neural whips are not that good either, S8 but rolling to wound against your opponents unmodified LD? This makes it almost useless against most units in the game. Heck you have a better chance to wound a Carnifex than you do a regular Guardsman. My suggested change was simple, S8 that always wounds on 4+. Simple change that makes the weapon useful in all situations instead of just vs Carnifexes and Conscripts.
Also gave the Mistress a piece of wargear that would allow the entire unit to benefit from Frag Grenades and the option to give the entire unit the Scout rule for 50ish points.

All fluff says that Repentia and Penitent Engines are amongst the fire to enter combat and the last to leave in their desperate struggle to find redemption.

Frag Grenades? I hear you ask, well my changes to the AoF system was similar to the ones in C:WH but Ld tests instead of over, under or 4+. My Initiative altering AoF allowed models who would normally strike at I1 strike at their base I instead. Repentia striking at I3 with Eviscerators is hardly op but would give them an option if they were assaulted in terrain by someone without grenades like Death Cults or Genestealers.

My AoF were also limited to 1 per unit per phase and if you ever failed the Ld of the failed unit would be reduced to 7 until the players next game turn, the unit would lose any special Ld modifying effects like Stubborn, Fearless and could not benefit from things that allowed for re-rolls of such tests like banners etc. You could perform no more Acts of Faith that game turn and the unit also lost any previous successful AoF, ICs allowed for an AoF so if you had 2IC in a unit the unit could try 3 AoF in a turn but if you failed the test.....

5 Different AoF that were all useful and in all circumstances of the game. No matter what you were doing each Act of Faith was tempting but as I said, you were limited to 1 per unit unless it had ICs in it, but The Price of Failure as I called the rule could be steep.

There were also other changes done but you get the picture. What I was trying to do was give the army synergy, make the AoF part of what the army is supposed to be.
GW didn't seem sure on what they wanted the AoF to be, in the WD dex it said the design philosophy was that it was an extra perk that you couldn't rely on but was rather a small bonus. On the website in the Sisters guide it says that the Sisters live and die based on their Acts of Faith.

To me Acts of Faith is what makes the army unique, without them they are just Veterans with better gear but worse options. Making AoF mundane for the Sisters is like making Psychic powers mundane for Grey Knights. Every army has something that makes them special, for the Sisters if has almost always been the Acts of Faith. The watered down version we got in the WD made AoF rather pointless, a small bonus you could never rely on and when you are limited in options like the sisters are this makes them inferior in almost all aspects of the game.

Then again these are my opinions and I could be wrong...

Last edited by MadCowCrazy; 10-19-11 at 05:37 PM.
MadCowCrazy is offline  
post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-19-11, 11:18 PM
Senior Member
 
SilverTabby's Avatar
SilverTabby's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 1,705
Reputation: 28
Default

40% of all WH40K sales are marine-based. This has been true for over a decade, was true 3 years ago in the meeting where all the sales figures were explained by Mark Wells, and I very much doubt that trend has changed since then.

There are 2 rules to being a success in life:
1) Never give out all the information

A random collection of my stuff
SilverTabby is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Wargaming News, New Releases and Information > Wargaming News and 40k Rumors

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome