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post #2431 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-05-11, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Grogbart View Post
I'm glad for you, that the new WDex suits your taste. But if you want to start a career as a GW suppository, please do so, without telling us what we should like, what we should discuss about, and certainly not, by telling us to adapt to every piece of dump GW scat before us!

I'll admit this WDex is still quite a bit off of what I'd deem unacceptable and from a strictly competitive view its neither better nor worse to me, some things got better (Rhinos, ...), some got worse (AoF, missing options, ...).

However, there are many little things with this WDex, that make it a huge let down for me. First and foremost the use of Sisters as guinea pigs for something GW had failed before. The apparent lack of care shown by presenting a half painted army, the many incomprehensibilities in the codex and the WH errata still listed on their website.
Add to that my not-so-objective issues with the feel and the style of play of the new WDex, as well as the direction it's leading the Sisters.
Not even mentioning general issues about miniatures.

It seems we will be stuck with this WDex for quite some time and it might as well be true, that neither complaining nor discussing the problems will change that or the upcoming Codex. But not discussing it and pretending to be happy with it, won't change anything for certain!

PS: Guess what SilverTabby, some of us do not just play the game to win, some of us play, to have the kind of fun you can enjoy even if you lose
For the love of Christ. While I can sympathize with the sentiment that the WD dex sucks (which no one will deny that it's not as good as what we SHOULD have gotten for Sisters instead) launching verbal assaults on people because they don't agree with you is ridiculous. This isn't Warseer or DakkaDakka, if you want to do that crap take it back there.

Additionally the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win. You're trying to complete more of a particular objective by whatever means necessary given a points limit, codex and models. If you're NOT playing to win then you're obviously just painting armies and never fielding them. To claim that you never "play to win" is a load of crock anyone with half a brain knows it.

And by the way, YES you can play to win without being a cheating douchenugget or bringing some uber-rock list to crush your opponent with.

And YES you can in fact play to win AND be a good sport.

If you can't be a good sport and at the same time bring fun, challenging lists and play well enough to make it a good game (or teach your opponent where they're failing so THEY become better so they can be more of a challenge against you and not end with you continually tabling them) then maybe your in the wrong hobby. Just saying.

And before the whole idea of "playing for the fluff" gets tossed into the mix, consider this: Is it in the codex? Then guess what! IT'S CANON AND THEREFORE "FLUFFY". GW wrote the codex, and therefore determines what is "fluffy" not the internet. If you can't stand that, well, I can't help you there.
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post #2432 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-05-11, 07:25 PM
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Whilst I agree that Grogbart's comment was ungentlemanly (and was going to point that out myself) I have to take issue with this statement:

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Originally Posted by Zion View Post

Additionally the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun with my mates. There is a world of difference.

If the point of the game is to win then logically, any game you do not win was pointless - and that's not a good thing.


Which brings me on to the WD 'dex (funny that...). It's less fun. there, I said it.

I have my doubts about its competativeness, but don't much care about that. I care about the fun, because that's the damned point of the game.

It's less fun because it's taken away most of the things that were cool and replaced them with a small number of things that aren't. Or things which, more accurately, might be cool in a vacuum, but are not the things most of us love(d) the army for.

SilverTabby is half right. We're stuck with this 'dex (Well, you are, I'm still using the old one, but you know what I mean....) but we don't have to like it, and we don't have to get over it. Rage, rage against the dying of the light, y'know.

MCC is also right, I think this thread is no longer needed.

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Sisters of Battle - The Order of Glory Undimmed - 2'500 Points | High Elves - House Cyredeth - 2'500 Points | Bretonnians - The Muster of Sir Jules Estelle - 3'000 Points
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post #2433 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-05-11, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Azezel View Post
Whilst I agree that Grogbart's comment was ungentlemanly (and was going to point that out myself) I have to take issue with this statement:



The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun with my mates. There is a world of difference.

If the point of the game is to win then logically, any game you do not win was pointless - and that's not a good thing.
Fair enough on the difference there. I was misleading with what I meant there. I don't mean that the only point in playing is to win, but that is the intent of both players.

And any game you lose isn't pointless, it serves as a way to learn and improve. And in campaigns it adds layers to an overall story (as does winning but sometimes losing makes things more interesting).
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post #2434 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-05-11, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
For the love of Christ. While I can sympathize with the sentiment that the WD dex sucks (which no one will deny that it's not as good as what we SHOULD have gotten for Sisters instead) launching verbal assaults on people because they don't agree with you is ridiculous. This isn't Warseer or DakkaDakka, if you want to do that crap take it back there.

Additionally the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win. You're trying to complete more of a particular objective by whatever means necessary given a points limit, codex and models. If you're NOT playing to win then you're obviously just painting armies and never fielding them. To claim that you never "play to win" is a load of crock anyone with half a brain knows it.

And by the way, YES you can play to win without being a cheating douchenugget or bringing some uber-rock list to crush your opponent with.

And YES you can in fact play to win AND be a good sport.

If you can't be a good sport and at the same time bring fun, challenging lists and play well enough to make it a good game (or teach your opponent where they're failing so THEY become better so they can be more of a challenge against you and not end with you continually tabling them) then maybe your in the wrong hobby. Just saying.

And before the whole idea of "playing for the fluff" gets tossed into the mix, consider this: Is it in the codex? Then guess what! IT'S CANON AND THEREFORE "FLUFFY". GW wrote the codex, and therefore determines what is "fluffy" not the internet. If you can't stand that, well, I can't help you there.
First point, I do not want to start any personal arguments.
I did allow myself to let a bit of my temper dye my post, to signify my annoyance of the topic in question, within what I deemed 'still civil'.
I'm not the kind of person, who goes to the football stadion, sitting calm the whole game and wondering why the people around me are making such a fuss, cheering their team, booing at bad referee decisions and rejoicing goals. To me that is passion and living it out is very much a part of why I play 40k.
If my picture of being civil does not apply to the one the community has, I'll gladly accept that, if I'm being told so by a moderator.

Second point, a) read my posts properly!
I do not have anything against people with differing options.
I did complain about being told what to do or think, ala "Get over it!".

b) read my post fully!
Just because I do not play just to win, doesn't mean I do not try to to win at all. (Or did I put the 'just' in my original post so wrong? I wasn't really sure were to put it in that sentence to be honest)

c) don't read anything into my post I haven't written!
Where the hell did I say anything like "You couldn't play to win without cheating...!"?

Now back to discussing!
"...the ENTIRE POINT of actually playing a GAME is to win." So, spending a joyful evening with your buddies playing a game of 40k is completely pointless just because you lose?!? You can't be serious! If you are, you're a very pitiful human being.

On the 'What GW writes is law'-thing. You're right, GW can write any fluff they want (Orks being pacifists, Black Templars being cowards, Dark Eldar being kind-hearted, Space Wolfs being shaved, ...) but there are borders as to how far we, the community (the "internet", the players, the customers) are willing to follow. No community, no customers (nearly none, some will always buy anything!) no sales!
The opinion of the community is shaped by the opinions of its members. GW doesn't seem to care about our opinion and your very right in assuming, that I can't stand that! But why the hell do we have forums like this, if not to hear other opinions, enabling us to get a picture of what the rest of the community thinks and feels?

Damn I could argue all night but I have to get some sleep (and sorry for not fiddling out everything being clarified by posts in the meantime), so good night and (since this threat is closing on Friday) thanks to all you mates, its been fun participating in this lively threat and special thanks to MCC!

Light your way in the darkness with the pyres of burning heretics.

Last edited by Grogbart; 10-05-11 at 08:54 PM.
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post #2435 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-07-11, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Grogbart View Post
On the 'What GW writes is law'-thing. You're right, GW can write any fluff they want (Orks being pacifists, Black Templars being cowards, Dark Eldar being kind-hearted, Space Wolfs being shaved, ...)
What? Is Matt Ward writing more codices? Shaved Space Wolves sound fun. Dark Eldar volunteering at the retirement home, passing out skim milk and crackers, what a lovely addition to the grimdark!
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post #2436 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-07-11, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogbart View Post
I'm glad for you, that the new WDex suits your taste. But if you want to start a career as a GW suppository, please do so, without telling us what we should like, what we should discuss about, and certainly not, by telling us to adapt to every piece of dump GW scat before us!

I'll admit this WDex is still quite a bit off of what I'd deem unacceptable and from a strictly competitive view its neither better nor worse to me, some things got better (Rhinos, ...), some got worse (AoF, missing options, ...).

However, there are many little things with this WDex, that make it a huge let down for me. First and foremost the use of Sisters as guinea pigs for something GW had failed before. The apparent lack of care shown by presenting a half painted army, the many incomprehensibilities in the codex and the WH errata still listed on their website.
Add to that my not-so-objective issues with the feel and the style of play of the new WDex, as well as the direction it's leading the Sisters.
Not even mentioning general issues about miniatures.

It seems we will be stuck with this WDex for quite some time and it might as well be true, that neither complaining nor discussing the problems will change that or the upcoming Codex. But not discussing it and pretending to be happy with it, won't change anything for certain!

PS: Guess what SilverTabby, some of us do not just play the game to win, some of us play, to have the kind of fun you can enjoy even if you lose
First, I do not play to win. Never have, and have never advocated playing purely to do so. None of my posts have ever advocated that, in fact they've railed against it in many cases. What I have issue with here, is everyone who complains that "this Dex is s**t, you can't win with it", which is pure rubbish. Hence my comments of "use creative thinking".

Second, the words "get over it" are not "stop discussing it". I mean stop whining about things you can't change and discuss ways of working with what you've got instead of throwing sulks as several posters are. I have a 2year old daughter who throws less tantrums than some Sisters players on this forum.

And I'm afraid that yes, you do have to adapt to what GW gives you unless you only play with mates at home. It's the nature of the game that it changes, and GW dictates those changes. As someone who has been playing a lot with this new list of late, I do object when folk refer to it as "scat". It's not a bad list, it's different - and if anything, more balanced than the old one, with several options having been made more viable, and newer, quite frankly sick close combat options having been added.

And what on earth are people talking about, "half-painted army"? Page references and specific pictures, please?

Please note, the uses of the word "you" in this post are not aimed at one person, but intended in the general plural. Forums and the English language do not always mix in the intended fashion, and this is not aimed at one person.

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1) Never give out all the information

A random collection of my stuff

Last edited by SilverTabby; 10-07-11 at 01:18 PM.
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post #2437 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-07-11, 11:47 AM
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Some people seriously need some changes to their medication ...

Outright ridiculous how folks can get this upset over a discussion about a tabletop game (and not even the game itself at that).

40k Armies: Dark Eldar / Adepta Sororitas
WHFB Armies: Vampire Counts / Empire / various Elves
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post #2438 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-07-11, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTabby View Post
It's not a bad list, it's different - and if anything, more balanced than the old one, with several options having been made more viable, and newer, quite frankly sick close combat options having been added.
My thoughts exactly. Heck it's easy to build a list with 30+ Power Weapons in it. You can even go over 50 in a single list with some creative building!
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post #2439 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-07-11, 05:30 PM
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It is possible to win with the codex. I just did versus Necrons, but my issues are more the flexibility of the codex and tactics. These are:
  • No Reserves roll modification
  • Only Seraphim and St. Celestine can deepstrike, and only dominions can outflank. They are both in the fast attack slot. Also we have no infiltrators.
  • No psychic defense
  • No ordnance, blast, or barrage
  • No options for other troops based on HQ taken
  • Most of our heavy hitters in assault have Rage
  • No stealth
  • No faith usage in opponents turn
  • No fast movement
  • Almost all short range weapons
  • Lacking many LD modifications
No one of these is that bad, and many codices have some of these, but we have all of them. I realize most of these come from an incomplete WD codex vs. a full release, but that doesn't change the above points.
I'll still play this dex as it is my primary army and you can win with it, but there is no denying it is incomplete/unfinished/wanting.

Wife: "How much do you have invested in these ... miniatures?"

Me: "I don't think invested is the right word."

Last edited by Suijin; 10-07-11 at 05:37 PM.
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post #2440 of 2448 (permalink) Old 10-07-11, 05:51 PM
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SilverTabby, I'm sorry for accusing you to play only to win! What led me to believe so, was this comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTabby View Post
... crying over spilt milk won't win me games - adapting will.
And congratulations on achieving something I could not: staying calm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTabby View Post
First, I do not play to win. Never have, and have never advocated playing purely to do so. None of my posts have ever advocated that, in fact they've railed against it in many cases. What I have issue with here, is everyone who complains that "this Dex is s**t, you can't win with it", which is pure rubbish. Hence my comments of "use creative thinking".

Second, the words "get over it" are not "stop discussing it". I mean stop whining about things you can't change and discuss ways of working with what you've got instead of throwing sulks as several posters are. I have a 2year old daughter who throws less tantrums than some Sisters players on this forum.

And I'm afraid that yes, you do have to adapt to what GW gives you unless you only play with mates at home. It's the nature of the game that it changes, and GW dictates those changes. As someone who has been playing a lot with this new list of late, I do object when folk refer to it as "scat". It's not a bad list, it's different - and if anything, more balanced than the old one, with several options having been made more viable, and newer, quite frankly sick close combat options having been added.

And what on earth are people talking about, "half-painted army"? Page references and specific pictures, please?

Please note, the uses of the word "you" in this post are not aimed at one person, but intended in the general plural. Forums and the English language do not always mix in the intended fashion, and this is not aimed at one person.
There are more than just two opinions about this WDex, mine for example is "this Dex is s**t, even though you can win with it".

Adapting my strategies and style of play to new circumstances, is something I am very much able to (if my brain is up to it!).
But whether I can enjoy a game/my army has almost nothing to do with adapting to anything. While I can't change what GW released, I can decide to stop playing 40k. But that's a decision I won't take lightly, as I have spent considerable amounts of time and money into my models. Furthermore the thing with emotions is, they are very subjective, sometimes a usually fun thing to do isn't just because I have a bad day. So it's either playing the new dex month after month to make sure those bad days don't ruin my ability to judge OR inform myself how other players feel. (Of course paying attention to the fact, that people happy with something, usually don't run to internet just to state they have nothing to complain about and thus the general image shown is always a bit darker than it should!)

On the other hand, having to wait a long time for an update and receiving this WDex can be a bit of a trauma! Talking about it and finding people who feel the same as you can be quite relieving. What you may call whining, is something others may call therapy!

As such I still see the "get over it!" part critically, because it's still ordering people what to say and what not. And that's a moderators job, I think.

Finally, the requested link!
http://www.games-workshop.com/we/dont/care/about/sisters.jsp?aId=17700021a

Light your way in the darkness with the pyres of burning heretics.
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