=][= Rumours Roundup : Sisters of Battle - White Dwarf Released - Page 235 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Wargaming News and 40k Rumors Discuss and share wargaming news, new releases, warhammer and 40k rumors here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #2341 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-21-11, 11:00 PM
Senior Member
 
SilverTabby's Avatar
SilverTabby's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 1,705
Reputation: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
The problems with the Command Squad though can be summed up thusly:
-No synergy with Canoness (she's built to work with a CC unit)
- No ablative wounds
- Immolator doesn't have firepoints
- Forces you to take a Canoness (who only works with Repentia (who get cheaper rerolls from Priests and don't benefit from the +1I) and Battle Conclaves (assuming they can benefit from her faith abilities since the don't have the Acts of Faith rule))
You are also starting from a base cost of 180pts (5 basic command + the Canoness required to take them) before you even add any multimeltas, as opposed to 105pts including 4 multimeltas from Retributors. In my opinion, for the possibility of Relentless it's simply not worth it, given Rending is more useful as it makes popping AV14 that much easier (a MM still needs a 6 to glance unless you're stupidly close*). Especially as the Command Squad has the worst chance in the entire army of actually pulling off their AoF (no option for a Superior, so no auto +1 there).

That aside, for all that people say Sisters suck in CC, this WDDex has actually given them a huge boost over how they were before. One simple addition: Bolt Pistols On Every Model. When left with no option but to assault or die, the ability to shoot beforehand has been great.

*Which is the same as an Exorcist, yet people still say they're better. Other than the range, I disagree, but that's another arguement.

There are 2 rules to being a success in life:
1) Never give out all the information

A random collection of my stuff
SilverTabby is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2342 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-21-11, 11:51 PM
Senior Member
 
Azezel's Avatar
Azezel's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Isle of Wight
Posts: 1,137
Reputation: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewm9 View Post
I think I'd like to know the overall design goal of this codex from his perspective (Cruddace as the designer) was.

...
I don't think we should be blaming Cruddace.

We knew before it was released that the 'codex' had almost no playtesting and was a rush-job. (the word on the street was that 'crons had a delay and GW needed something to fill the gap that resulted).

It certainly looks like Cruddace was given a weekend to throw some damn thing together and hope it'd fly.

He's always done right by the Sisters before (at least, so far as anyone has since Andy Hoare left) and he's on of the better codex writers out there.

'Nid players might argue that, but the sole real complaint there is 'too many cool elites' - my heart bleeds. Actually - if you look at his real codices ('Nids & Guard) you find that both are extremely flavourful, with special rules which support that flavour.

That too is an indication that Cruddace is not to blame. It seems very clear that he was not given the time or resources to do anything close to what he could have.

It seems plain that, things like the Canonness losing her Jump Pack were simple oversights.

To answer the question, I think his design goal was 'hash something out on my lunch break and hope it doesn't suck'.

Looking for a friendly wargaming club on the Isle of Wight? Drop me a line.

Sisters of Battle - The Order of Glory Undimmed - 2'500 Points | High Elves - House Cyredeth - 2'500 Points | Bretonnians - The Muster of Sir Jules Estelle - 3'000 Points
Azezel is offline  
post #2343 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 12:08 AM
Senior Member
mahavira's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 445
Reputation: 2
Default

RE: the point cost of immolators, just checked my base Marines codex, and a razorback with twin linked heavy flamers costs the same as an immolator, and doesn't have an invulnerable save, so I don't think we can really complain too much (possibly the heavy bolter option with inferno bolts is too expensive, can't comment on multimelta because it's not an option for razorbacks).
mahavira is offline  
 
post #2344 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 01:00 AM
Token Trans Mod
 
Zion's Avatar
Zion's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: On the internet.
Posts: 6,385
Reputation: 103
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTabby View Post
You are also starting from a base cost of 180pts (5 basic command + the Canoness required to take them) before you even add any multimeltas, as opposed to 105pts including 4 multimeltas from Retributors. In my opinion, for the possibility of Relentless it's simply not worth it, given Rending is more useful as it makes popping AV14 that much easier (a MM still needs a 6 to glance unless you're stupidly close*). Especially as the Command Squad has the worst chance in the entire army of actually pulling off their AoF (no option for a Superior, so no auto +1 there).

That aside, for all that people say Sisters suck in CC, this WDDex has actually given them a huge boost over how they were before. One simple addition: Bolt Pistols On Every Model. When left with no option but to assault or die, the ability to shoot beforehand has been great.

*Which is the same as an Exorcist, yet people still say they're better. Other than the range, I disagree, but that's another arguement.
Personally for me it's the price we pay for that Predator chassis and 48" range. For 30 points less than a tri-las Predator we get something that not only makes tanks fall to it's volleys but threatens TEQ, MEQ, and Monstrous Creatures at a good long range without scatter. And it now comes with a free 6++ save (it's saved me a few times thus far) and free smoke launchers (great for the turns you're inevitably shaken or stunned). It's just a really good deal on such a potent tank.

Plus being a giant organ mounted on a tank that shoots missiles is cool in my book.
Zion is offline  
post #2345 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 03:15 AM Thread Starter
Banned
MadCowCrazy's Flag is: Aaland
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Burning Depths of Hell
Posts: 2,452
Reputation: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahavira View Post
RE: the point cost of immolators, just checked my base Marines codex, and a razorback with twin linked heavy flamers costs the same as an immolator, and doesn't have an invulnerable save, so I don't think we can really complain too much (possibly the heavy bolter option with inferno bolts is too expensive, can't comment on multimelta because it's not an option for razorbacks).
Personally I think the SM, SW and GK Razorbacks are bad comparisons to the Immolator, or at least to what it used to be.

I'd say the best Razorback to compare it to would be the Blood Angels Razorback as the Immolator used to be able to drive 12" and still fire it's heavy flamer.

The Blood Angel one costs 55pts and can change the TL-Heavy Bolters for TL-Heavy Flamers for free. It's also a Fast vehicle.

This is what the Immolator should be, the Immolator cant take las or plas cannons. It has the HFlamer, MM and HBolter options. It should by all rights have the Inferno Cannon as well as it has that in the audio book Fireborn and the Hellhound is based on the Immolator design.

If they wanted to make it a shitty Razorback then why not lower the points cost, it can't take the same weapons as a Razorback. The ability to re-roll to wound sure as hell isn't worth 25 points though as that's what you pay for it compared to a normal Razorback.

The Immolator should be a fast vehicle with allot more options, starting at 55pts with a TL-Heavy Flamer.

Then again that's just my opinion...
MadCowCrazy is offline  
post #2346 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 03:40 AM
Token Trans Mod
 
Zion's Avatar
Zion's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: On the internet.
Posts: 6,385
Reputation: 103
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy View Post
Personally I think the SM, SW and GK Razorbacks are bad comparisons to the Immolator, or at least to what it used to be.

I'd say the best Razorback to compare it to would be the Blood Angels Razorback as the Immolator used to be able to drive 12" and still fire it's heavy flamer.

The Blood Angel one costs 55pts and can change the TL-Heavy Bolters for TL-Heavy Flamers for free. It's also a Fast vehicle.

This is what the Immolator should be, the Immolator cant take las or plas cannons. It has the HFlamer, MM and HBolter options. It should by all rights have the Inferno Cannon as well as it has that in the audio book Fireborn and the Hellhound is based on the Immolator design.

If they wanted to make it a shitty Razorback then why not lower the points cost, it can't take the same weapons as a Razorback. The ability to re-roll to wound sure as hell isn't worth 25 points though as that's what you pay for it compared to a normal Razorback.

The Immolator should be a fast vehicle with allot more options, starting at 55pts with a TL-Heavy Flamer.

Then again that's just my opinion...

Not a bad opinion either.

The old Inferno Cannon it used to have (I've got a 3rd Ed Core Rulebook which has the stats for the Sisters' 2nd Edition stuff) was a S6, AP4, Heavy 1 Template that made units who took wounds from it automatically fall back as if they had just failed a morale check.

My interpretation of that is that they fell back even if they wouldn't normally be required to make morale checks. Which is pretty awesome. Now I'm not saying we SHOULD get that back...but it'd be kind of nice.

Last edited by Zion; 09-22-11 at 03:43 AM.
Zion is offline  
post #2347 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 04:57 AM
Senior Member
 
Grogbart's Avatar
Grogbart's Flag is: Germany
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ludwigsburg, Germany
Posts: 213
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahavira View Post
..., can't comment on multimelta because it's not an option for razorbacks).
Our multi-meltas are 40 points more, compared to the heavy bolters on a Razorback. Is that anyway near the usual price difference between heavy bolter and multimelta?
Dreaghtnoughts, Land Speeders, Stormravens, Hellhounds, Leman Russ'?

Imperial Armour 2 has syn. multi-melta options for razorbacks and they're free!

Light your way in the darkness with the pyres of burning heretics.
Grogbart is offline  
post #2348 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
Banned
MadCowCrazy's Flag is: Aaland
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Burning Depths of Hell
Posts: 2,452
Reputation: 11
Default

Here is a snippet of what I've added to my document I'm going to give to Cruddace and anyone else from the design team I can find.

A way to make the Immolator unique from the Razorback would be to bring back the 2E Twin Heavy Flamer or an option to fire it as such. The Twin Heavy Flamer rule was basically 2 flame templates next to each other, perhaps something like.
Focused Muzzle: The Heavy Flamer counts as being Twin-linked
Widespread/Open Muzzle: You place two flame templates next to each other but otherwise treat the weapon as a Twin-linked Flamer.

This concept is interesting but also flawed by it's own design, the reason being that unless both are twin-linked you would never use the other. Both can't be Heavy Flamers as that would just mean you used the widespread one.

You could make it a feature of the Immolator, a reason for it's name rather than just being a razorback with worse weapon options.
If you took a Flamestorm Cannon for the main weapon and you could fire it normally with S6 Ap3 or place two templates next to each other and fire them as Twin-linked Heavy Flamers.
MadCowCrazy is offline  
post #2349 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 05:18 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 398
Reputation: 2
Default

From a balance point of view if you get 2 templates then they will not be twin-linked. So likely options are twin-lnked heavy flamer 1 template or 2 templates of regular flamer not linked. It would be nice to have an upgrade to a flamestorm cannon also for more points of course. Also for sure craziness a flamestorm cannon and then side sponsons of heavy flamers, heh that would be some flaming fun.

Or for your example of the flamestorm cannon S6 AP3 or place 2 templates next to each other counting as heavy flamer but not twin-linked.

Last edited by Suijin; 09-22-11 at 05:21 PM.
Suijin is offline  
post #2350 of 2448 (permalink) Old 09-22-11, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
Banned
MadCowCrazy's Flag is: Aaland
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Burning Depths of Hell
Posts: 2,452
Reputation: 11
Default

Yeah, I've been contemplating this allot.

For the Flamestorm to 2 Heavy Flamer templates it works ok, but from a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer to 2 Regular Templates it doesnt work because the twin allows you to reroll wounds while 2 regular flamer templates might cover more but have a lower chance to wound. What this means is that you are more likely to cause wounds with the TL heavy flamer than you are with 2 normal flame templates to a point.

Heavy Flamer
Shots:10 T4 with 3+ Targets Hit
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 10
Wound Chance: 88.89%
Wounds: 8.889
Saved Wounds: 5.926
Unsaved Wounds: 2.963
Models Killed: 2.963
Options:
Reroll Wound, Auto Hit

Shots:15 T4 with 3+ Targets Hit
Hit Chance:100%
Hits: 15
Wound Chance: 50%
Wounds: 7.5
Saved Wounds: 5
Unsaved Wounds: 2.5
Models Killed: 2.5
Options:
Auto Hit

Shots: 20 T4 with 3+ Targets Hit
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 20
Wound Chance: 50%
Wounds: 10
Saved Wounds: 6.667
Unsaved Wounds: 3.333
Models Killed: 3.333
Options:
Auto Hit

Basically you need to hit twice as many targets for the dual flamer to be useful, something that will rarely happen. On models where you would wound on 2+ and they get no save it's better with 2 Heavy Flamer templates than 1 Flamestorm but going from a TL template to 2 lower S templates it's not quite as good unless you can hit twice as much.

Last edited by MadCowCrazy; 09-22-11 at 05:43 PM.
MadCowCrazy is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Wargaming News, New Releases and Information > Wargaming News and 40k Rumors

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome