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post #21 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Synack View Post
Elldar!!

10char
Or simply 'space elves' , which is what they have always been in reality.


I dont really get the whole 'jumping on the gw bandwagon' thing really, space battles , laser guns, space armour , aliens all existed a very long time before Rick Priestely and Andy Chambers came up with Rogue Trader.

It seems a little asinine to claim everything space related after 1987 is ripping them off, they didnt originate it, and any sort of competition in the arena is good, for both customers, and indeed, for GW itself, complacency seems rife within the game authors these days.
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post #22 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 01:28 PM
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Or simply 'space elves' , which is what they have always been in reality.


I dont really get the whole 'jumping on the gw bandwagon' thing really, space battles , laser guns, space armour , aliens all existed a very long time before Rick Priestely and Andy Chambers came up with Rogue Trader.

It seems a little asinine to claim everything space related after 1987 is ripping them off, they didnt originate it, and any sort of competition in the arena is good, for both customers, and indeed, for GW itself, complacency seems rife within the game authors these days.
Nobody is claiming GW invented Scifi, far from it, but GW did invent warhammer and 40k, face up to the fact mantic are unlikely just to pump out a "scifi wargame", they will and many others have since 1987 have tried desperately to emulate 40k, not emulate scifi,not emulate star wars/buck rogers/Geiger or Arthur c clarke in a war game, mantic will release a 40k "clone" thats clear from the choice of races alleged from the reports floating around, space dwarves is jumping on the band wagon so much the bearded little buggers are driving the wagon.

Also back in 87 didnt GW produce a scifi wargame based on "fantasy" archetypes? such as space elves and dwarves etc? and im fairly certain they were the first to do that and even if they were not the first people to do that, they were the only one that was successful, and they have been successful with that format to the point were mantic are now jumping on the band wagon.



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post #23 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
Nobody is claiming GW invented Scifi, far from it, but GW did invent warhammer and 40k, face up to the fact mantic are unlikely just to pump out a "scifi wargame", they will and many others have since 1987 have tried desperately to emulate 40k, not emulate scifi,not emulate star wars/buck rogers/Geiger or Arthur c clarke in a war game, mantic will release a 40k "clone" thats clear from the choice of races alleged from the reports floating around, space dwarves is jumping on the band wagon so much the bearded little buggers are driving the wagon.

Also back in 87 didnt GW produce a scifi wargame based on "fantasy" archetypes? such as space elves and dwarves etc? and im fairly certain they were the first to do that and even if they were not the first people to do that, they were the only one that was successful, and they have been successful with that format to the point were mantic are now jumping on the band wagon.
But again, if every single sci fi game is disparaged as 'emulating 40k' then its no wonder we are in the mess we currently inhabit, as customers we deserve it.

Being of the same type of game shouldnt be a negative, take videogames, if everything post doom was disparaged for being a fps clone, how many truly fantastic games would have been missed in the last 20 years?

GW dont own the hobby, nor did they create it.

Someone releasing a sci fi wargame should be something anyone who enjoys the hobby itself welcomes, not pours negativity over, because the only way the hobby is going to gain is through expansion of choice.

GW have shown they cannot grow the hobby further, their actual customer base is shrinking, their financials show it, thus the endless critcicsm of anything new is just hurting the hobby as a whole.

If ONE person starts miniature wargaming because of Mantic, thats a good thing, and I despair if people cannot see that.
Its a social hobby that relies on others to enjoy, more people is better, and I for one couldnt give a toss how they get into the hobby.

Its ironic you use space dwarfs an example of why this game is going to be a copy of 40K.
I hope you dont need an explanation as to why.

Me? I've never even seen a mantic mini outside of the pictures on beastsofwar, I think they are variable in quality, but they seem to improve with each release, and offer decent value for money.

The 'resin is so much cheaper we are doubling the number of minis for the same price' schtick is pretty much marketing genius at this time, and people , even staunch GW supporters, should be applauding it.
Anything that puts pressure on GW to stop treating customers with contempt is good for everyone.

Now, I havent seen the rules, so I dont know how this game will play, I'd much rather see a game similar to 40K second edition in terms of game size and scope than a copy of current 40k, and reality is I probably will never buy a mantic product in my life, but I welcome the fact people are putting money into the hobby I enjoy , because I'll benefit indirectly at some point.
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post #24 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by nogginthenog View Post
But again, if every single sci fi game is disparaged as 'emulating 40k' then its no wonder we are in the mess we currently inhabit, as customers we deserve it.
But every sci fi game DOESNT have to emulate 40K.

40K is typified by 10 man squads with a sergeant (not across the board, but most commonly groups of 10)

40K has psychic powers

40K has 'grim dark'

And lots of etcs there.

I will give you an example. Look at 40K and Star wars. If you line them up side by side as a universe there are very few similarities. 40K is fantasy in space, star wars is 'aliens'. 40K has 'the warp', star wars has hyperspace and the force as very different things. Star wars has droid armies, clone troopers, 1 person fighter craft - 40K has eldar, nids, transports etc etc etc

They are VERY different universes with very different structures. Again, I could make the comparason with Star Trek - again, all three universes are VERY different (some more pure science than others), and lets look at battle tech - again, a completely different concept for a sci fi universe (and its a wargme as well!) - but the problem is anyone who puts 'elves in space' and 'dwarves in space' AND 'orcs in space' is simply ripping GW off entirely - rather than taking the more difficult (But in the end much more rewarding route) of making their OWN universe and their own game.

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Being of the same type of game shouldnt be a negative, take videogames, if everything post doom was disparaged for being a fps clone, how many truly fantastic games would have been missed in the last 20 years?
Well quake was just a doom rip off. The difference is, the other games may well have been 'first person shooters' - which is no different to saying 'wargame' - but they are all very different games with different universes (sci fi, fantasy future, modern day, world war etc etc).

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post #25 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 03:04 PM
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But every sci fi game DOESNT have to emulate 40K.

40K is typified by 10 man squads with a sergeant (not across the board, but most commonly groups of 10)

40K has psychic powers

40K has 'grim dark'

And lots of etcs there.

I will give you an example. Look at 40K and Star wars. If you line them up side by side as a universe there are very few similarities. 40K is fantasy in space, star wars is 'aliens'. 40K has 'the warp', star wars has hyperspace and the force as very different things. Star wars has droid armies, clone troopers, 1 person fighter craft - 40K has eldar, nids, transports etc etc etc
So now 10 man squads is GW(TM)

Do you not see how ludicrous that is, or are you suggesting the UK military (squad size 10 led by an NCO) copied GW.

They didnt invent this stuff, they took fantasy archetypes they stole from tolkein et al and applied military organisation to it.

If you truly want 40k to be a better game, then you would welcome others in the arena, not disparage them.Competition will improve the hobby for us all, a mantic sci fi game , to me, means 40K 6th will be better than it would be without that mantic game, because GW will have to make the effort, especially if they see a hit to sales, they will have no choice.
Thats a positive, not a negative.

The idea that GW 'owns' squad based sci fi seems utterly ludicrous to me, given, space marines aside, there is nothing original in the entire game makeup in the first place.

I love 40k, thats why I want competition, it shouldnt be viewed as a threat, it should be welcomed, 40k will get better because of it.
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post #26 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 03:04 PM
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I agree with Noggin, Mantic being a success can only be a good thing.
If they are successful then one of two things will happen, GW will completely ignore them and will finally vanish up their own arses or they will buck up their ideas and try and take them on in the only way they can, a price war.
Mantic's biggest selling point at the moment is proving that wargaming doesn't need to be as expensive as we have been led to believe, the minis could be better and they may well be a GW clone game wise, I don't care. If I can play a decent game that doesn't require a mortgage to get into then I will give it a go.
At the moment GW are in the very cosy position of being a huge fish in a tiny pond, wargamers have little option but to use their product, as Mantic grows and improves GW's position becomes less secure meaning they will have to take a good look at their business model.
Competition is good for the consumer, GW will actually have to start trying rather than relying on the fact they have a near monopoly on wargaming.

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post #27 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nogginthenog View Post
So now 10 man squads is GW(TM)

Do you not see how ludicrous that is, or are you suggesting the UK military (squad size 10 led by an NCO) copied GW.
Sigh...

That is clearly NOT what I said. What I was trying to say, and showing you with examples, is 3 other universes (two which are RPGs and other a full blown wargame) all of which DONT follow the same pattern. Star wars doesnt have fixed squads, star trek teams are generally 4 or 5, battle tech lances are 3. None are the same as GW with their (fairly) rigid) squads of 10.

Its not a single thing - GW dont have the IP to enforce people using 'powered armour' - however when you have bioengineered 'Marines' running around in 'Powered armour' firing 'RPGs' fighting 'space elves' on 'bone constructs' and 'space dwarfs' on 'trikes' - you are simply left with someone NOT using their imagination and copying GW but using different words - and this is what has been tried in the past.

Quote:
The idea that GW 'owns' squad based sci fi seems utterly ludicrous to me, given, space marines aside, there is nothing original in the entire game makeup in the first place.
Sorry???

The emperor
Space Marines
Chaos gods
Tau
Necrons
Nids
Eldar (Everything except the name)
Primarches
Chaos legions

Do you want me to go on - that list could get bloody long very fast with very original GW ideas and backstory.

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post #28 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 03:23 PM
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Copying GW is pretty lame if you ask me, why go with the copycats when getting the real thing is so much better.
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post #29 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 03:24 PM
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GW dont have a competitor in mantic, when mantic has hundreds of stores all over the world and its own original systems then they can be taken seriously as a competitor, till then they are just pretenders copying GW, i think they get too much credit for what they do, yes they produce minis for alot less than GW which is a great positive but they have to be cause they are not level pegging with or better than GW minis,but thats pretty much the end of the story, the models are not as good, there is less choice,less units,less choice on the sprue. I would be surprised if they have even 1% of the GW turn over.If your a gamer first and your models are simply gaming tokens and you dont want to invest a lot of money then Mantic are an idea company for you,but that does not make them a competitor, and if GW really thought they were a competitor they would buy them out, chuck a few million at them and they would soon go away.



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post #30 of 94 (permalink) Old 06-03-11, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
, and if GW really thought they were a competitor they would buy them out, chuck a few million at them and they would soon go away.
Or, 'sack' a lot of their staff and model designers would would then apply for jobs at manic, wait for themselves to become invaluable to the company and then all quit enmass and get re-employed back at GW.

Because that hasnt happened before....

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