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post #141 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 08:53 PM
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Hi everyone,



Well, we can see that there are quite a few of you with strong feelings about several issues, and the threads have gone a little crazy. We’re sorry many of you feel frustrated. We have read all of your comments and because we (the web dudes) don’t have the power to act on any of them, be assured that we have passed your comments on to the higher levels of management in GW.



We want to continue posting pictures of your fantastic miniatures, and link to hobby related items. We would like future threads to remain relevant to the topic in question, so everyone else can have their voice heard and enjoy the discussions about the hobby we all love.



We’ve got your comments both in this thread and on those older posts, which will remain open for you to carry on the conversation there – please, feel absolutely free to do so, we will indeed read them. But in any new threads, we want to celebrate the creative efforts of others. Any comments that stray off topic will be removed.



Just remember that we must remove any strong language and abusive users, in consideration of our youngest fans.



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post #142 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
@Maidel
This all boils down here to a few simple facts. We no longer want to pay the price to stay involved in this hobby.
Thats fine - Ive stopped doing a lot of things i enjoyed doing in my life. I however did that with a teeny tiny bit of dignity...

Quote:
Those of us living outside the US and Europe don't want to begin paying outrageous prices where elsewhere in the world people pay much less.
For me - this is the most ridiculous statement - things cost different amounts in different places. I dont want to pay 33% more for Itunes than americans do - but I do. I dont want to pay 50% more for my car than someone from poland does - but I do.

Quote:
Just want to bring up that expense is relative of course since I've seen that argument thrown around a couple of times that this is actually a cheap hobby. When my other hobbies include checking out books from the library, going to my university's rec center, and running, I think I can safely say that I'm paying more for 40k than anything else.
The perhaps this is hobby you cant afford?

I would LOVE to do go-carting or some form of motor racing. A guy I work with runs his subaru imprettza (spelling!) at lots of events on an amature basis. He spends an utter fortune on it. I cant afford to do it, I have a wife and baby to house, feed and clothe. Hobbies are expensive, if you cant afford to do it, then sorry, its tough. We all have to make choices in life - Im not here to tell you that you must play the game and that you must buy models from GW - but Im also going to sit here and listen to people moan on and on that the hobbie is too expensive - it is exactly what it is, if its too expensive for you, then im sorry, it really sucks, wish that wasnt the case, but thats life.
If one day this becomes too expensive for me (basically if my wife ever wins the arguement about us having a second child...) then I will, with a heavy heart, put aside new model purchases, carry on painting and playing with what I already have, and wait for the day when I actually get a decent pay rise (pigs have flown faster...)

To prevent any 'misunderstandings' if I post IN ORANGE then I am joking.
Thank you
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post #143 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 09:31 PM
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On the comment made on "this is actually a cheap hobby" - I completely agree. My other hobby is LRP, and it's far more expensive, for less tangible longterm results. I have paid roughly equivalent costs for my tentage, weapons, costumes and make-up as I have for my main armies, and on top of that I pay for replacement or repair of these things, then between £30 - £70 for each weekend, not including food and travel costs. Given my armies can be used indefinately once bought, 40k is the far cheaper hobby.

Oh, and in the 10 years I've been LRPing, costs of weapons and weekends have risen at a fairly similar rate to my toy soldiers. There is bugger all I can do about it, it's life. Hence the approach I take of "tough, this is how life works." Welcome to Capitalist life. You want a society where the good of the community dictates how businesses work? Go live in a communist country.

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post #144 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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Please stop with the underhanded comments. I'm quitting and this is a public forum where I can voice my complaints. Yes, this is my most expensive hobby, but that does not mean I cannot afford it. It's like how you said you don't want to pay more for itunes but you do anyway. I don't want to pay for more 40k, so I won't, simple as that.

When the exchange rate between US and Australian currency is fairly similar, why should they put up with paying twice as much as others do? I understand different places have to pay different prices because of shipping, etc but see that doesn't matter to people. All they see is that all of a sudden they are being forced to pay 25% more than they used to. Sure you're ok with paying higher prices, but don't expect others to put up with it.

Last edited by Hurricane; 05-18-11 at 09:38 PM.
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post #145 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slaaneshy View Post
Basically there is a lot going on here. We can all accept that GW is a business and exists to make money, not keep us in toy soldiers.

But there is a big HOWEVER here.

The overall feeling GW has generated with its long term fans over the last couple of years is negative. This is a company that has lost touch with its customer base.
The company releases codex's and rules that seem to lack anything resembling adequate play testing, requiring an FAQ within hours of release - and often not getting it for years! This generates resentment.
The stores focus has shifted away from a good balance of selling and playing/hobby and is now far more about pushing sales. GW has been sacking good people if they are deemed more of a hobbyist than a seller. This generates resentment.
Great indie stores like Wayland and Maelstrum with excellent stores and staff who love what they do are being unfairly squeezed by GW as they do the things they fail to do - improve the hobby and create a gaming atmosphere. GW has stopped them selling to various contries and is looking to reduce their product range (my club has just recieved an email from Wayland asking us to write them a letter of support against this move) in order to force you to buy direct is underhand. This generates resentment.
White Dwarf, once a bastion of the hobby with interesting articles, projects and additions to armies, is now a souless catalogue of product pictures. This generates resentment.
While this forum's membership often appear to lack any understanding of a life of wargames outside of GW, but for those of us that do, enjoy a wealth of other systems from Kings of War to Warmahordes to Malifaux. These systems are better supported, play tested, cheaper to collect and play, and crucially, have a hobby 'feel' that GW now actively tries to kill within its own business model. This generates resentment.

So when people say they are done with GW, it is for a number of reasons, price hikes and treatment of indie retailers being the latest flux in the perfect storm for GW.

Many people have predicted the end of GW. I usually laugh when I hear it. But I am now going to wave the banner of extinction as well. I believe that unless there is a radical change of direction at the top GW will find itself isolated. This recession is hurting and people will cut back, especially if prices rise too far. Also there is now a real choice in the market with well established companies selling good quality product and excellent rule systems for far cheaper (Kings of War army books and rules are free to download for example, while warhammer ary books are now over £20 each).

GW can do all these things - those of us over 30 remember a time that they did it - the question is are there enough people left in the company with the will to bring it back from the brink?


I have spent the last couple of hours reading through this entire thread from start to finish. Whilst folks feelings are running high the one post that really resonated with me was Slaaneshy's.

You see, we are all passionate about our hobby, if we weren't we would just say 'costing me too much - time to find something else to do' and quietly but bitterly ditch it. But if you step back and look at the big picture the pricing issue is really the least of the issues. If you can afford it you will buy it.

I already have a Massive Marine and Tau army so unless I am going to start a new army (highly unlikely) cost is negligible. It's the social side of the hobby that has deteriorated. I have not played in over 5 years, I hate going into the stores now where once upon a time I almost lived in the damned places. They are just stores now, not hobby venues. White Dwarf...once upon a time I bought it religiously...I had stacks of the damned things...now I quickly flick through it at Tesco's and am consistantly disappointed with it.

After 23 years of collecting I will never, never get rid of my kit...I will, hopefully one day soon, get back into playing if I can find some local opponents. I can see me still building and painting my models till the day I die...and then I want burying with the fucking things...they are mine...all mine muwaahahahhahahaaaaaaa!
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post #146 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 09:48 PM
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we'll miss you?

I just saw a megaman (rockman) and I want it so bad, 40 bucks though. I will have to wait till after the wedding
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post #147 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
Please stop with the underhanded comments. I'm quitting and this is a public forum where I can voice my complaints. Yes, this is my most expensive hobby, but that does not mean I cannot afford it. It's like how you said you don't want to pay more for itunes but you do anyway. I don't want to pay for more 40k, so I won't, simple as that.
Where was the 'underhand' comment - that would imply I was saying things behind your back or in a subtle but obvious manner - I didnt - I said it in plain english. Possibly you could call it a 'cheeky' comment, but certainly not underhanded.

Quote:
When the exchange rate between US and Australian currency is fairly similar, why should they put up with paying twice as much as others do? I understand different places have to pay different prices because of shipping, etc but see that doesn't matter to people. All they see is that all of a sudden they are being forced to pay 25% more than they used to. Sure you're ok with paying higher prices, but don't expect others to put up with it.
I cant remember if its in this thread or another thread - the reason why Austrailians pay twice as much is because their salary is WORTH twice as much. Average earnings in the uk are £18,000, average earnings in Australia after conversion to UK money is £42,000 - therefore prices are twice as much because you have to pay the shop assistant twice as much, the electricity company twice as much, the haulage company twice as much - I could go on, but I think you get the point. I has nothing to do with exchange rate, but the value of your earnings.

To prevent any 'misunderstandings' if I post IN ORANGE then I am joking.
Thank you

Last edited by Maidel; 05-19-11 at 06:05 AM.
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post #148 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 09:53 PM Thread Starter
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Perhaps not underhanded, but the "irrational school of thought" comment that you gave to Katy and the "leaving with dignity" comment you gave to me I thought were uncalled for.
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post #149 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-18-11, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
Perhaps not underhanded, but the "irrational school of thought" comment that you gave to Katy and the "leaving with dignity" comment you gave to me I thought were uncalled for.

I stand by my 'irrational' comment - she even said it herself that she was acting emotionally and didnt want her mind changed.

For me - this is irrational - giving up a hobby for which you already have all the models you actually NEED to play the game because of a price rise for models that you dont actually NEED to buy - that for me, is the utter definition of irrationality.

the 'leaving with dignity' well that for me is just good old 'british stiff upper lip' stuff - if you are going out, the go out with your head held high and dont make a fuss.

You can call them uncalled for or whatever you like - but I wont applogise for telling the truth.

To prevent any 'misunderstandings' if I post IN ORANGE then I am joking.
Thank you
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post #150 of 212 (permalink) Old 05-19-11, 02:01 AM
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I just finished reading this thread.
Frankly, Maidel, I think your comments were rude, not just to the pepole they were directed towards, but to everyone who feels the same way.

I, for one, am basically not buying any more GW products for a while if things keep going the way they are. I'll use my existing armies, and fill them out with third party models (that are in many cases better quality and cheaper) and scratch-builds.

The big difference between GW and other companies you purchase products from, that has not been pointed out, is that with GW, it is an investment. When you buy a codex and a unit, that isn't the end of the business relationship the way it is when you buy, for example, a bicycle. That codex and unit are a start towards building a larger collection, which is necessary to gain the full enjoyment of those items. Future purchases from the same company are required to make the initial investment useful.

Once a player has made that initial investment of a Codex, an HQ and two Troops, they can technically never buy anything else and have a technically playable army. However if they wish to fully utilize their purchase, it requires additional investments. Ultimately, when playing with their starter force gets boring, they can choose to set them aside and at the same time write off that initial investment, or they can purchase more models. If GW raises their prices to an unreasonable level, it unfairly burdens the customers who have made that initial investment and forces them to choose between writing off that investment or accepting the higher prices. GW controls the tournaments, the outlets (which for many people is the only location they can go to play) and to a large extent the retailers, and they are able to prohibit the use of alternative models, effectively giving them a top-to-bottom monopoly, albeit within a specific game, but a game that we love and play and in many cases have invested a lot of time and money in.
It is because of that investment, and that ongoing business relationship that i feel it is entirely reasonable and rational for players to be getting upset. GW is exploiting that investment to a level that i agree with many people is unreasonable.

It is perfectly rational to disagree whether the price increase is reasonable or not. I believe, however, that it is irrational to try and say that there is something wrong with being upset about it.



@Maidel: When you express your personal opinion rudely, and then try to excuse it by calling it "truth", you are not excusing anything. You're just being an arrogant prick.

Check out my Codex: Scions of Slaanesh (Grey Knights complete rewrite)
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?p=959181

And my Necromunda Escher gang project log (with lots of pictures)
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/....php?p=1007914

In our embrace of the pleasures of the flesh we feel the embrace of the Dark Prince
She asks nothing of us but to enjoy life, and in doing so we bring glory to Him
Give up your petty faiths and morals and join us in the bosom of the Goddess of Pleasure
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