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post #251 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 04:21 AM
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My point isn't so much that the balance will be off initially, it is that setting a Tactical Marine to 13 means the low end of points gets cluttered a LOT and granularity is missing. It's a lost opportunity to reset the low end point cost (mainly of infantry) to something higher that will make it far easier to actually address point imbalances later.

Example:

Bog standard Ork Boyz are currently 6 points each. If it turns out they need help, would you drop them to 5? That's a sixth off their cost, that'll likely imbalance them the other way.

Gretchin at 3 points each... Can't really go up to 4 as a nerf (+33%) or down to 2 (-50%) to help them, or you're likely to make any problem they have far worse in the other direction.

Up the costs by a factor 4 and your Tactical Marine will now be 52 points instead of 13, the Ork Boy will cost 24 and the Gretchin 12. Suddenly, there's some breathing room in the system to make adjustments WITHOUT making things worse.
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post #252 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 05:06 AM
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That's an interesting point of view.

I think I actually like that.

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post #253 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandathe View Post
My point isn't so much that the balance will be off initially, it is that setting a Tactical Marine to 13 means the low end of points gets cluttered a LOT and granularity is missing. It's a lost opportunity to reset the low end point cost (mainly of infantry) to something higher that will make it far easier to actually address point imbalances later.

Example:

Bog standard Ork Boyz are currently 6 points each. If it turns out they need help, would you drop them to 5? That's a sixth off their cost, that'll likely imbalance them the other way.

Gretchin at 3 points each... Can't really go up to 4 as a nerf (+33%) or down to 2 (-50%) to help them, or you're likely to make any problem they have far worse in the other direction.

Up the costs by a factor 4 and your Tactical Marine will now be 52 points instead of 13, the Ork Boy will cost 24 and the Gretchin 12. Suddenly, there's some breathing room in the system to make adjustments WITHOUT making things worse.
the Gw claim of "being able of adjusting things" is obviously bullshit. Its a way to make us pay to play (just like now). Also, more point means less models. Look what happened between 2nd and 3rd edition: halved points to allow double models. They will never again make a marine cost more than 15 pts.

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post #254 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 10:39 AM
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I think the adjusting points is them finally admitting that the game has balance issues at time and that they plan to work on this. As for the whole points cost thing, I honestly don't see them dicking with the base unit cost of everything that much. I think they will make the upgrades the way they will adjust for balance.
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post #255 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 11:08 AM
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The whole system has been revamped. I really don't think points are going to be too huge of an issue anymore.

Honestly, I think AP values have been a massive clusterfuck of imbalancing things. You pay however many points for a missile launcher or an autocannon and there are still models walking around that don't give a fuck because your AP rating isn't good enough to make any difference to their 2+ armour save. So you're spending points on heavy weapons that against armies like Custodes, Deathwing or a lot of Grey Knight builds simply won't matter.

Likewise on the opposite side, you can spend the extra points on a lascannon or multi-melta, and the heavier points cost incurred is overkill against the kinds of models you'll target that only have a 3+ armour save or worse, like pretty much every tyranid monster there is.

AP being replaced by Rend is going to go a long way to fixing these issues, ensuring that the points costs they put on these weapons won't ever be for nothing. That I feel, was a huge factor in imbalanced points in codexes, and now it's gone.

Once again, I am going to see how this all plays out before I make any effort to find faults that may not even matter.


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post #256 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
The whole system has been revamped. I really don't think points are going to be too huge of an issue anymore.

Honestly, I think AP values have been a massive clusterfuck of imbalancing things. You pay however many points for a missile launcher or an autocannon and there are still models walking around that don't give a fuck because your AP rating isn't good enough to make any difference to their 2+ armour save. So you're spending points on heavy weapons that against armies like Custodes, Deathwing or a lot of Grey Knight builds simply won't matter.

Likewise on the opposite side, you can spend the extra points on a lascannon or multi-melta, and the heavier points cost incurred is overkill against the kinds of models you'll target that only have a 3+ armour save or worse, like pretty much every tyranid monster there is.

AP being replaced by Rend is going to go a long way to fixing these issues, ensuring that the points costs they put on these weapons won't ever be for nothing. That I feel, was a huge factor in imbalanced points in codexes, and now it's gone.

Once again, I am going to see how this all plays out before I make any effort to find faults that may not even matter.
I love how you are one of the few voices of calm and sanity I hear on the new edition, most people I hear and read from about it are halfway panicking and already declaring house rules on near everything.
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post #257 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 02:10 PM
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That's because those people fear any real change.
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post #258 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 02:26 PM
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Most people in this thread seem remarkably laid back and accepting, actually. There's some distaste for some of the changes, and some wishing that they'd put a little more thought into things here and there, sure.

Remarkably little shouting that the new edition is shit and serious ragequitting, though. Especially remarkable since 7th has honestly been a pretty good edition.

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post #259 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 02:30 PM
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Remarkably little shouting that the new edition is shit and serious ragequitting, though. Especially remarkable since 7th has honestly been a pretty good edition.
I started with 4th, and I honestly thought that was the best edition until 7th came out. Always however, did I feel that the AP system wasn't really as comprehensive as the save modifiers used by WHF.

Now we have that. I am absolutely anticipating 8th edition to be a huge improvement based on that alone. Nothing else I've read has come across as any kind of detrimental to me at all.
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post #260 of 646 (permalink) Old 05-13-17, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandathe View Post
Most people in this thread seem remarkably laid back and accepting, actually.
I've only seen people frothing at the lips on forums, of my local gaming group (~120 people at this point) it ranges from "little kid high on sugar" level excitement to "give me the damn rules already" impatience. There's one guy who is mildly perturbed (if it ain't broke don't fix it sort) that 30k is getting an 8th ed. makeover but he doesn't count

Every mechanic I've seen about 8th so far just looks like everything is going to be more "what it should be" on the tabletop, and the idea of keeping Matched play points costs separate from the core rules for post-release balancing is brilliant in my books. It definitely looks and sounds like GW's done a ton of testing and listening to the community and we're going to be rewarded with a game that kicks all kinds of ass and doesn't take three hours to sort out a 20+ ML point psychic phase and artillery barrages stacked on top of Look Out Sir rolls.

Onward and upward, GW
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