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post #61 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 11:24 AM
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Not being funny, I'd rather have Phil Kelly write the codex than play with Troublehalf's ideas.
Phil Kelly ain't the worst. The csm codex was bad but it can still do "something" on the table.
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post #62 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 12:21 PM
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(Also I really wouldn't recommend you looking at the FW website after all they have an entire range of minis set 10,000 years before the current era which are actually some of the most awesome minis GW has ever put out but I fear they may give you an embolism, plus there is the Badab War stuff. Seriously don't go there, I fear for your health if you do.)
FW is for specialist models/games. As in, the Badab War is a specific campaign in a specific series of books, Imperial Armour. Therefore, it's perfectly fine to add characters in the game who die at some point, since each Imperial Armour book is based around a, guess what, specific campaign. Blood Angels codex isn't set around Armageddon.

Furthermore, 30k is just the same. It's set 10,000 years before and is different to 40k. You KNOW you're recreating events. I'm not pretending the Legion I'm playing is actually stomping around the world right now.

I'm perfectly fine with him being part of Armageddon, cause, guess what, that's been put in a fucking separate book as well. Oh, and look at that, Herman von Strab was put in the Armageddon HQ section in Apocalypse book, NOT IN THE IMPERIAL GUARD CODEX.


So, since your reading comprehension is lacking, I'll spell it out for you as simply as possible. If you want to specifically recreate the Armageddon camapaign, do so, there are several books available to help you do this, with specific rules and ideas and, guess what, Armageddon War specific characters. The Codexes are supposed to be about the Chapter as of 'now' not 'as of 2nd War for Armageddon'. Furthermore, it's supposed to be a list of the chapters units and their greatest heroes who are actually doing stuff, not being dead decades ago.

So, do you get it now? He's a waste of a character slot. If you want to play with him and recreate battles, fine, do it, I don't give a shit, but putting him specifically in a book when you could easily create another character (who is alive) or bring back one from the past (Moriar the Chosen for example) would be better than somebody who has no further part to play in the events of the Chapter.

You really seemed to be ignoring the fact I was describing what should happen in their 6th (but in reality, 7th) edition codex, not what already exists. People's 'fun' (what a horrible buzzword fun is, I must conform to what everybody else wants!) can be ruined simply because somebody plays Tycho instead of somebody else. Say you're playing as Chaos Chapter who have been unleashed to cause destruction in systems surrounding the Cadian Gate in an effort to divert or hold up vital supplies or manpower, this is happening around 40.999, you're playing against Blood Angels, and bam, some guy plays Tycho. You're immediately transported back in time to before he was dead (ignoring the fact if it's the Black Rage version, which he only became DURING the war itself) and thus screwing up your planned story.

Cause guess what? Some people like pretending they're trying to hold back the vanguard of the 13th Crusade, just as much as some people enjoy recreating the War for Armageddon. But playing dead characters outside specific settings cause those people to have their fun reduced.

If you can't see why he's and every other dead character is pointless in a codex, then I cannot help you. Dataslates exist for a reason, to give specific characters a presence on the table-top for those who want to fight specific scenarios.

Furthermore, if you could be so kind as to point out any other fully dead characters who are still in their main codex in 40k, I'd appreciate it. Seeing as how I'd want to avoid dying by having an opinion different to yours.
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post #63 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Troublehalf View Post
FW is for specialist models/games. As in, the Badab War is a specific campaign in a specific series of books, Imperial Armour. Therefore, it's perfectly fine to add characters in the game who die at some point, since each Imperial Armour book is based around a, guess what, specific campaign. Blood Angels codex isn't set around Armageddon.

Furthermore, 30k is just the same. It's set 10,000 years before and is different to 40k. You KNOW you're recreating events. I'm not pretending the Legion I'm playing is actually stomping around the world right now.

I'm perfectly fine with him being part of Armageddon, cause, guess what, that's been put in a fucking separate book as well. Oh, and look at that, Herman von Strab was put in the Armageddon HQ section in Apocalypse book, NOT IN THE IMPERIAL GUARD CODEX.


So, since your reading comprehension is lacking, I'll spell it out for you as simply as possible. If you want to specifically recreate the Armageddon camapaign, do so, there are several books available to help you do this, with specific rules and ideas and, guess what, Armageddon War specific characters. The Codexes are supposed to be about the Chapter as of 'now' not 'as of 2nd War for Armageddon'. Furthermore, it's supposed to be a list of the chapters units and their greatest heroes who are actually doing stuff, not being dead decades ago.

So, do you get it now? He's a waste of a character slot. If you want to play with him and recreate battles, fine, do it, I don't give a shit, but putting him specifically in a book when you could easily create another character (who is alive) or bring back one from the past (Moriar the Chosen for example) would be better than somebody who has no further part to play in the events of the Chapter.

You really seemed to be ignoring the fact I was describing what should happen in their 6th (but in reality, 7th) edition codex, not what already exists. People's 'fun' (what a horrible buzzword fun is, I must conform to what everybody else wants!) can be ruined simply because somebody plays Tycho instead of somebody else. Say you're playing as Chaos Chapter who have been unleashed to cause destruction in systems surrounding the Cadian Gate in an effort to divert or hold up vital supplies or manpower, this is happening around 40.999, you're playing against Blood Angels, and bam, some guy plays Tycho. You're immediately transported back in time to before he was dead (ignoring the fact if it's the Black Rage version, which he only became DURING the war itself) and thus screwing up your planned story.

Cause guess what? Some people like pretending they're trying to hold back the vanguard of the 13th Crusade, just as much as some people enjoy recreating the War for Armageddon. But playing dead characters outside specific settings cause those people to have their fun reduced.

If you can't see why he's and every other dead character is pointless in a codex, then I cannot help you. Dataslates exist for a reason, to give specific characters a presence on the table-top for those who want to fight specific scenarios.

Furthermore, if you could be so kind as to point out any other fully dead characters who are still in their main codex in 40k, I'd appreciate it. Seeing as how I'd want to avoid dying by having an opinion different to yours.
C'mon everyone, let's all be friends.

Last edited by Nacho libre; 05-20-14 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Typo.
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post #64 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 12:49 PM
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waaah
calm down

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
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post #65 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Troublehalf View Post
FW is for specialist models/games. That in the majority of cases slot right into "normal" 40k perfectly well.

As in, the Badab War is a specific campaign in a specific series of books, Imperial Armour. Therefore, it's perfectly fine to add characters in the game who die at some point, since each Imperial Armour book is based around a, guess what, specific campaign. They also fit in before hand and in some cases they also survive it. Blood Angels codex isn't set around Armageddon. Nope but they are present there so why shouldn't they include a specific unit that fought there amongst other places? Do you only play Grey Knights against Deamons? Space Marines against enemies of the Imperium?

Furthermore, 30k is just the same. It's set 10,000 years before and is different to 40k. You KNOW you're recreating events. I'm not pretending the Legion I'm playing is actually stomping around the world right now. No but you could use that rule set to represent a formation in 40k. Some people feel that the HH rules are actually a more accurate fit to the a SM chapter than the SM Codex. @Vaz for example.

I'm perfectly fine with him being part of Armageddon, cause, guess what, that's been put in a fucking separate book as well. Oh, and look at that, Herman von Strab was put in the Armageddon HQ section in Apocalypse book, NOT IN THE IMPERIAL GUARD CODEX. That book is quite a few editions old. Did Herman von Strab fight anywhere else? No, he did not. Tycho did.

So, since your reading comprehension is lacking, I'll spell it out for you as simply as possible. If you want to specifically recreate the Armageddon camapaign, do so, there are several books available to help you do this, with specific rules and ideas and, guess what, Armageddon War specific characters. The Codexes are supposed to be about the Chapter as of 'now' not 'as of 2nd War for Armageddon'. Furthermore, it's supposed to be a list of the chapters units and their greatest heroes who are actually doing stuff, not being dead decades ago. That's how you see them, I, like many others see them as a list of units that the Chapter has used over the last 10,000 years and you can choose to use what you like from it. You can theme your list to your choices.

So, do you get it now? He's a waste of a character slot. Because there is only a set amount of character slots? If you want to play with him and recreate battles, fine, do it, I don't give a shit, Given your rather strong reaction I'm calling bullshit on that one. but putting him specifically in a book when you could easily create another character (who is alive) or bring back one from the past (Moriar the Chosen for example) would be better than somebody who has no further part to play in the events of the Chapter. For you. Not necessarily for anybody else.

You really seemed to be ignoring the fact I was describing what should happen in their 6th (but in reality, 7th) edition codex, not what already exists. People's 'fun' (what a horrible buzzword fun is, I must conform to what everybody else wants!) can be ruined simply because somebody plays Tycho instead of somebody else. Yes heaven forbid you personally should have conform to what everybody else wants, it would be so much easier if every other plater all just did what you Troublehalf wanted! Again I'm not saying you HAVE to play with him or play against him. The opposing player puts him down on the table you simply you don't want to play against him or you can pretend that mini represents something else. That's YOUR choice. Say you're playing as Chaos Chapter who have been unleashed to cause destruction in systems surrounding the Cadian Gate in an effort to divert or hold up vital supplies or manpower, this is happening around 40.999, you're playing against Blood Angels, and bam, some guy plays Tycho. You're immediately transported back in time to before he was dead (ignoring the fact if it's the Black Rage version, which he only became DURING the war itself) and thus screwing up your planned story. Or you could simply ask them not to play him? Would you also be throwing a massive tantrum if that same Chaos Chapter you described was forced to face Farsight and his Enclaves who are nowhere near the Cadian Gate? Or one of the 6th BA Companies not deployed to fight off the 13th Black Crusade? Or how about some Nids painted up like Hive Fleet Behemoth? (which was destroyed between 745.M41 and 746.M41 near Ultramar)? Going to go all NATO then as well?

Cause guess what? Some people like pretending they're trying to hold back the vanguard of the 13th Crusade, just as much as some people enjoy recreating the War for Armageddon. But playing dead characters outside specific settings cause those people to have their fun reduced. And ditto the other way round, what makes your view anymore valid than mine? Simply having that entry in the codex annoys you? There are lots of things that annoy me in the background and in the codexs for various reasons? Know what I do? I ignore the vast majority of them in my own forces and if I do end up facing them across the table... I get over it and realise that I have no absolute right to forbid my opponent from playing them and if it bothers me that much... I can always not play them. If that's in a tournament setting then that's a choice you have to make. If you want to discuss fluff then sure I'll get involved but as we all know Fluff "facts" have fuck all relevance when it comes to the TT. If they did then the way the game is played would be VERY different.

If you can't see why he's and every other dead character is pointless in a codex, then I cannot help you. Dataslates exist for a reason, to give specific characters a presence on the table-top for those who want to fight specific scenarios. Dataslates exist for many reasons, not just that one.

Furthermore, if you could be so kind as to point out any other fully dead characters who are still in their main codex in 40k, I'd appreciate it. Seeing as how I'd want to avoid dying by having an opinion different to yours. Apart from Tycho? None off the top of my head since they retconned Eldrad's death out of the timeline in the new dex. Doesn't mean that he should go too though, given how GW's move is to try and make as much stuff inclusive as possible now Tycho being alive is pretty far down on my list of things to have to wrap my head around, why that IG player has an allied detachment of Orks and Necrons in his Unbound army list and how he got access to 3 Baneblades one of which is being crewed by Orks and the tech priest he has hasn't died of rage is going to be harder to make sense off. However by your same logic Hive Fleet Behemouth shouldn't be included in the current Nid dex, nor should Draigo be allowed to fight anybody other than Deamons (or indeed the entire GK chapter). Quite a simple fix for that, don't play me.
I'll just go back to painting my minis however the fuck I want, play with people who feel the same way I do and you can too ok buttercup. I believe the game is about compromise so that both players have a good time. You may feel differently. In my opinion (and remember it's just my opinion I'm not forcing you to "conform" to it) I'd be surprised if you can find anybody who would want to play you, you sound like a joy to be around and an all round stable individual. Have a nice day.

Last edited by Jacobite; 05-20-14 at 01:30 PM.
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post #66 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 01:44 PM
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I'll just go back to painting my minis however the fuck I want, play with people who feel the same way I do and you can too ok buttercup. I believe the game is about compromise so that both players have a good time. You may feel differently. In my opinion (and remember it's just my opinion I'm not forcing you to "conform" to it) I'd be surprised if you can find anybody who would want to play you, you sound like a joy to be around and an all round stable individual. Have a nice day.
Holla.
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post #67 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 01:54 PM
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Mental note, don't ever try to play Troublehalf with my new Astral Claws army.

Joking aside, i don't get the hatred for having dead characters in the codex, i think it makes the stories more interesting, in a similar way to why i have chosen Astral Claws, i can still write my own fluff about them but i like the idea of playing a loyalist chapter that is soon to have a tragic end.
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post #68 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 03:07 PM
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Tycho wouldn't be the first character dropped from any Codex, my main interest is in seeing someone else come to the fore as a hero of the Blood Angels. Or still include him, but add someone current or from another Successor Chapter.

Hell, maybe they could just sweep Astorath under the rug instead if there's some unknown number of Unique Characters that can be in a Dex. That dude showed up out of nowhere when I got back into the hobby it seemed, the only DC special characters when I was young were Moriar and Lemartez and it seemed like Lemartez had things on lockdown for taking care of those who fell to the Black Rage.....or so my vague memories from when I was 8-11 put forth. It's been a while.

If there was a shakeup in the Character section of the dex, is it just a slight rules adjustment that everyone wants to see or does anyone else want to see and actual shift in what named characters are available?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #69 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 04:58 PM
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I honestly can't believe the rant I just read. Isn't this just a game? Don't get me wrong I started playing as soon as gw opened in hull circa 1990 and haven't stopped since, I must've spent easily over 5 grand on this game over the years if not 10. And it's taken a vast time toll on my life (Christ knows how I've managed to get married.....TWICE) but I can't see how anyone would get so worked up over the fact that one of the characters in the game codex dies in a book written by someone completely different. If you want to read the books then fine, just chill out man, it's a game

If you want to throw your toys out of the pram over anything it should be LOW models allowed in 40k, that's messed up. But it's the rules now so I have to just suck it up and play a boring game against a waac player who can't put a decent army list together

Last edited by maximus2467; 05-20-14 at 05:01 PM.
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post #70 of 296 (permalink) Old 05-20-14, 05:13 PM
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First off, Tycho isn't the only "dead" character in the Codex series. There's Eldrad, for one. He's quite a bit dead. But, let's try to calm down. I would enjoy Tycho inthe next Codex cause it would be fun for me. If he's not there? I don't think I'd be upset.
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