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post #61 of 191 (permalink) Old 07-31-08, 01:47 AM
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I honestly prefer that route. Less hassle for them, cheaper for us. Hopefully it also means we'll see more of that sort of thing(since it's less hassle), like the return of the craftworld rules, or introduce more chapters to compensate for the loss of traits. Same thing could be applied to the IG's loss of doctrines. Man, yeah I'm all for FAQs.
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post #62 of 191 (permalink) Old 07-31-08, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolf_Lord_Skoll View Post
I have no idea...
Another thing: I rekon blast weapons shopuld have a negative modifier on cover, sure a flamer allows no cover, but its hard to use cover when its being destroyed as well.
with the way ordinance works(not sure if it applies to all blast, sorry) if the hole in the center of the template is inside the peice of cover, the cover is negated, as the blast originated from within the cover.

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post #63 of 191 (permalink) Old 07-31-08, 11:51 AM
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So I know that I'm not going to ask or state anything new but here I go anyway.

Will the BA, DA and BT get a big FAQ? I fail to see why anyone would play BA or DA with the release of the SM codex. I mean shit the damn Crimson Fists can be stubborn but the Dark Angels lost it, WTF? First they take the Venerable from the Wolves now there going to take the scouts as well. They (GW) take the personality out of one or more popular armies and give it to the god damned Space Marines! Why even give BA, DA, BT or SW there own books?

As for people saying to chill out that other armies will be brought into line with this codex is crap and they know it. I mean how long have the Dark Eldar been waiting to be brought up to speed with everyone else? Or the damned Space Wolves?

I don't play Space Marines so over all I could give a shit about the new book (and 5th edition for that matter), but we all know that this is shit plane and simple. I'm not trying to ruffle anyones feathers just voicing my opinion.
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post #64 of 191 (permalink) Old 07-31-08, 09:29 PM
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BloodAngelZeros, Dark Eldar Commander can have a 2+ Inv save...

And, yes, they might sound overpowered but remember what always happen in 40K, the tech war, every new codex is more powerful than the one published before (i mean, if SM are over powered, when Dark Eldar codex comes out, probably will be more powerful than the SM one, and so on), so it's not a big deal. I can hear in the distance the future anger about the new Eldar codex and all his special rules and antimarine weapons.
That's simply incorrect. The current chaos codex is weaker than last addition and I don't believe a single thing in there is being called "Cheap" "beardy" or "imba" besides the lash of submission. Outside of that it's a big bag of overpriced weaponry, wargear, icons, squad leaders, and units(I'm looking at you, possessed, spawn, dreadnought.)

Also I don't think I've ever seen a "Versus" that included a renegade marine unit. Nor a thread saying "Help! Fighting a chaos marine army!"

And everyone here knows -exactly- why they churn out codex after codex very slowly and not in any great rush. All those beardy tournament players whose lives depend on it will sell off the current army of cheese(eldar) and pick up the newer, fancier army of cheese(spess mehrein).

(Serious S6 power weapons that strike at initiative? Wtf GW. Wtf.)

And the fact that you now have an abaddon-like marine that rerolls everything...that's....it's really just heartwrenching to every lil black heart that believed in chaos.
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post #65 of 191 (permalink) Old 07-31-08, 09:59 PM
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Chaos were generally equal to normal SM in prevoius editions but now a havoc squad fights with the same attacks as dedicated assault units, a troop choice has the same WS as any SM character bar the special ones, The hq's are better and cost less and chaos can have what 9 viable troop choices? SM have 2, one with now BS and WS 3. The main challenge I see with the new codex is trying to find a fair balance between the overly powerful elites and the necessary troop choices for objective holding. If it wasn't for troops being the only scoring units this codex wil be totally overpowered and to an extent it stil is but it still requires some bit of thought to field a usable and effective force....

If you shit in one hand and wish in the other we all know which one will fill up faster.

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post #66 of 191 (permalink) Old 08-01-08, 03:00 AM
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Chaos were generally equal to normal SM in prevoius editions but now a havoc squad fights with the same attacks as dedicated assault units, a troop choice has the same WS as any SM character bar the special ones, The hq's are better and cost less and chaos can have what 9 viable troop choices? SM have 2, one with now BS and WS 3. The main challenge I see with the new codex is trying to find a fair balance between the overly powerful elites and the necessary troop choices for objective holding. If it wasn't for troops being the only scoring units this codex wil be totally overpowered and to an extent it stil is but it still requires some bit of thought to field a usable and effective force....
Lord reevan makes a valid point, the space marines are not more powerful, the power curve is in different parts of the army list.
it is easy to make the rookie mistake of looking at one or two units and their statline, or at the wargear they CAN have. The part that seems overlooked by the majority of those that whine about each and every new 'dex. is the cost, both in points and the opportunity costs that balances them out, combined with specialization, and or limited numbers.

Just because a unit might be able to do a lot of damage, it does not mean that 1) the damage will be enough, or 2) that their potential will be realized.

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post #67 of 191 (permalink) Old 08-01-08, 03:59 AM
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Just because a unit might be able to do a lot of damage, it does not mean that 1) the damage will be enough, or 2) that their potential will be realized.
Given that what you said may be true. I offer this as a rebuke. Given enough time (maybe a month or 2 after the new codex's release?) all their potential will be realized by one or more people. Undoubtedly, I'm sure they'll communicate it to fellow marine players and if they don't, their opponents sure will. Something along the lines of "If you take such and such with such and such, wraithlords= dead. Or did you know if you can manage to keep a daemon prince at around 48" he's toast with this cannon" or something like that. Ya get my point I think. Yes, strength isn't everything in this game. I just saw in a recent game, a chaos dreadnought survive 3 rounds of 2 railguns firing at him. Is that a likely event, no way in hell. The point here is that a strength 10 weapon that can nail you up to 72" (which is 1.5 times the length of the boards I play on and hit you at maximum strength that far out kind of nullifies a lot of things because in all liklihood it will do major damage. This is a game of probabilities, not definites. So will all this new wargear and rules and such make the SM an extremely powerful force while the other armies wait in the wings to catch up? I'd be willing to bet on it. Like I said before though, I don't so much as have a problem with what the SM are actually getting, there's always a counter weapon/tactic for every weapon/tactic. It's more that SM were probably one of the last armies that needed an update for their codex and had the least amount of issues to address when compared with other armies. I think it's all just a big PR booster to get newcomers hooked into the game.

When you think about it, it does make a bit of sense. New release of 5th ed coincides with a release of both a new starter set and new codex for one of the armies that's included in the starter set, giving said army an edge over other armies. What do a lot of newcomers buy? The starter set as it includes everything needed to well, start the game. And out of the two armies included (no matter which starter set really) do most people gravitate towards? The SM of course. Why? There's certainly a lot of fluff and such but if the newcomers are playing the game, then they see that the SM are a decent easy army to play and that they let them win the majority of the time. I doubt too many would continue with a hobby or game they continually lost at (excluding those that are in this hobby for the modeling/painting part for which all this rambling goes out the window). Therefore, why not make it seem at the time that the SM are this unstoppable force with a spanking new codex that'll keep more players continually buying things from GW?

Remember, the SM are GW's golden boys. They're the big money makers as most people in this hobby/game have probably had or played at one point, an SM army. And with any sort of golden boy (or "golden thing" for that matter) you're not gonna treat it like crap. Usually most of your efforts are gonna go towards making the golden boy even more, well, golden.

"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has though and purpose which functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bio-engineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if it is aware of us at all, it must know us only as Prey."
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post #68 of 191 (permalink) Old 08-01-08, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BloodAngelZeros View Post
Given that what you said may be true. I offer this as a rebuke. Given enough time (maybe a month or 2 after the new codex's release?) all their potential will be realized by one or more people. Undoubtedly, I'm sure they'll communicate it to fellow marine players and if they don't, their opponents sure will. Something along the lines of "If you take such and such with such and such, wraithlords= dead. Or did you know if you can manage to keep a daemon prince at around 48" he's toast with this cannon" or something like that. Ya get my point I think. Yes, strength isn't everything in this game. I just saw in a recent game, a chaos dreadnought survive 3 rounds of 2 railguns firing at him. Is that a likely event, no way in hell. The point here is that a strength 10 weapon that can nail you up to 72" (which is 1.5 times the length of the boards I play on and hit you at maximum strength that far out kind of nullifies a lot of things because in all liklihood it will do major damage. This is a game of probabilities, not definites. So will all this new wargear and rules and such make the SM an extremely powerful force while the other armies wait in the wings to catch up? I'd be willing to bet on it. Like I said before though, I don't so much as have a problem with what the SM are actually getting, there's always a counter weapon/tactic for every weapon/tactic. It's more that SM were probably one of the last armies that needed an update for their codex and had the least amount of issues to address when compared with other armies. I think it's all just a big PR booster to get newcomers hooked into the game.

When you think about it, it does make a bit of sense. New release of 5th ed coincides with a release of both a new starter set and new codex for one of the armies that's included in the starter set, giving said army an edge over other armies. What do a lot of newcomers buy? The starter set as it includes everything needed to well, start the game. And out of the two armies included (no matter which starter set really) do most people gravitate towards? The SM of course. Why? There's certainly a lot of fluff and such but if the newcomers are playing the game, then they see that the SM are a decent easy army to play and that they let them win the majority of the time. I doubt too many would continue with a hobby or game they continually lost at (excluding those that are in this hobby for the modeling/painting part for which all this rambling goes out the window). Therefore, why not make it seem at the time that the SM are this unstoppable force with a spanking new codex that'll keep more players continually buying things from GW?

Remember, the SM are GW's golden boys. They're the big money makers as most people in this hobby/game have probably had or played at one point, an SM army. And with any sort of golden boy (or "golden thing" for that matter) you're not gonna treat it like crap. Usually most of your efforts are gonna go towards making the golden boy even more, well, golden.
what I meant was that the unit will likely be eliminated before it can do the damage, not that munchkins might not realize that they can do the damage, I'm sorry for the bad wording, I have given myself a yellow card for bad use of pronouns.

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post #69 of 191 (permalink) Old 08-01-08, 04:36 AM
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what I meant was that the unit will likely be eliminated before it can do the damage, not that munchkins might not realize that they can do the damage, I'm sorry for the bad wording, I have given myself a yellow card for bad use of pronouns.
Ahhh, yeah, in that case I can agree with you. Too many times do my heavy destroyers get wiped before they really do any real damage. But then again, if you can have this unit sitting way the hell back shooting all the way across the board at you at up to 72" (I don't know what kind of weapon it is or what LOS it needs) there's not much in the way of weaponry that comes close to even hitting it at an equal length so the only thing it has to worry about is deep striking units and if the SM unit is in cover/fortification, the deep strikers have to deploy a little ways away or else risk suffering the consequences of DSing into cover.

"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has though and purpose which functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bio-engineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if it is aware of us at all, it must know us only as Prey."
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post #70 of 191 (permalink) Old 08-01-08, 04:47 AM
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Chaos were generally equal to normal SM in prevoius editions but now a havoc squad fights with the same attacks as dedicated assault units, a troop choice has the same WS as any SM character bar the special ones, The hq's are better and cost less and chaos can have what 9 viable troop choices? SM have 2, one with now BS and WS 3. The main challenge I see with the new codex is trying to find a fair balance between the overly powerful elites and the necessary troop choices for objective holding. If it wasn't for troops being the only scoring units this codex wil be totally overpowered and to an extent it stil is but it still requires some bit of thought to field a usable and effective force....
All those attacks are without any kind of power weapon(your dedicated assault marines only have two each? Not to mention any other armies dedicated assault troops would -laugh- at two normal attacks a peice) And that troop choice for a minimum squad costs more than the character by at least fourty points. And WS is nearly the worst skill in the game, to be honest. The hq's are worse. Take the chaos lord. He's superior to a castellian, but costs more, and his upgrades are more expensive. The sorceror is usually a one-trick pony unless we LOAD him down with points. And we have six troops. Nilla marines, cultists, and daemons(I think) spawn can't hold objectives. And again, we have specialists that don't do well in a changing environment. If we take one type and encounter something they can't deal with, we've sunk nearly 250 points into useless ablative wounds.

My main thing is, S6 power weapons are nearly -always- useful. While I can have a berserker with a ws of 5, it doesn't mean anything if he runs into a dreadnought(these are seeing more use in fifth) and with our TWENTY FIVE point powerfists, it's not feasible to actually arm anyone with them. Not to mention the mandatory "squad leader" upgrade needed to buy powertoys that usually sets us back 10-15 points.

So basically for a berserker....we have to spend fifty six points to put a powerfist into a squad JUST for the sole reason it won't be wiped out of existance by a dreadnought.

Meanwhile our loyalist buddies in the black templar need twenty nine points.
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