Ultramarines Supplement - 'Tyrannic War Veterans' - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-16-13, 08:59 PM
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Did I miss something here? I thought the Codex included all the rules for the chapters it covers - Smurfs, White Scars, Imperial and Crimson Fists, Templars, Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard. I thought the supplements would just be the Dark and Blood Angels and Space Wolves.
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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-16-13, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Archon Dan View Post
However, RW has access to a nasty plasma upgrade and, thanks to Scout, a means to get it in place quickly.
If you're talking about Knights, they're prohibitively expensive. I have never seen them in a list.

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Originally Posted by Archon Dan View Post
One thing everyone seems to forget, especially when they complain about WS +1 Hammer is that Bikes are not assault troops. Sure, fluff says they are drafted from assault squads but they play like highly mobile tactical units. This is where RW will excel thanks to the Banner of Devastation and Hit and Run(if you do get assaulted, break free and shoot). Sure, a WS Biker may live longer because of improved Jink but the RW Biker should do much more damage.
But being in combat is better than being out of it in the opponent's turn, and White Scars have the potential to actually do something while they're there with higher strength HoW and numerical advantage over DA. Besides, White Scars have Hit and Run too, so they can do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
because Grim Resolve (or Inner Circle) on all tacticals isn't basically DA Chapter Tactics
And lo, did the great lords of Power Armour bestow upon the Dark Angels a Chapter Tactic that is a fucking liability. It is NEVER good. There are not enough Marines to tarpit; you have no fear of being run down in combat; against shooting, Stubborn is useless; in Combat, you are less likely to flee and therefore be able to shoot, rather than sit and get punched.

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
What...scout and teleport homers on every bike isn't enough (oh yeah, and the ability to split one choice into 3 scoring units)
If you're taking SM Bikes as any kind of real force, you're taking Khan, so you get Scout. Teleport Homers are really shitty for 6pts; you can summon up your Deathwing with no scatter, but they still suck, so making them bad and accurate isn't meaningfully better than making them bad and inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
Better Psychic Disciplines, 3 wound Chaplains, Fearless on all HQ outside of Techmarines. They only lack the Master of the Forge. DA relics are decent and better priced than most of the relics from C:SM, also the Sacred Banners and a number of other unique wargear (power fields, etc) are only available to DA.
Sacred Banners, which are very expensive and one of which only works in a Ravenwing build. Chaplains are not Librarians or unlock characters, so it doesn't matter how many wounds they have, really. DA Relics are piss poor, generally; Mace of Redemption is ok, Lion's Wrath is usable, but Foe-Smiter, Shroud of Heroes and Monster Slayer are absolutely awful.

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
Hunter/Stalker are nice, but are basically alternatives to an Aegis line. The only significant Anti-Flyer the DA are missing is the Storm Raven. Prescience is also nice for Anti-Flyer. The difference is not as wide as you think. (As for the flyers, the Neph is probably about 15pts overcost, and the Talon is an anti-infantry fighter...)
Stormtalon is much better anti-Flyer than anything DA have native to their Codex, and even that's mediocre. Stormraven is really good, but since DA are Battle Brothers with Blood Angels they don't really miss not having it native to the DA book. Prescience makes things unreliable, instead of 'Worth a try because I have nothing else to shoot'. Nephilim is more like 50pts overcosted; it's a flying Lascannon with AV11. It has absolutely nothing else that is relevant.

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
Small model counts armies are vulnerable to certain lists, that is true across the board and is a R-P-S thing. However, if you can't find ways to make Deathwing synergize with the rest of your army you are not trying.
Deathwing are highly overcosted and do nothing that specialists do much more efficiently. They're kind of ok at lots of things, but not actually good at anything (there's a reason that nobody takes Grey Knight Terminators - the only reason Deathwing are still alive is that Tacticals don't have Storm Bolters and Cyclone Missile Launchers).

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
You have to compare Ravenwing bikes vs. Standard Space Marine bikes first of all, the RW vs WS debate is a separate one. For 6pts more than a SM bike, a RW bike gains Hit and Run, Scout, and Teleport Homers. As for the overall cost. Also another difference for RW For 10pts less (206 RW, 213 SM), you are sacrificing 2 bikes for the ability to have 3 units, compared to 2 units for SM.
Ravenwing, on the whole, are also 85pts more expensive as that's the cost you pay for Sammael. Sammael is probably better than Khan, but not nearly 100pts more expensive. Azrael's good in a Blob Squad, but at that point you're needing Imperial Guard to shore you up and denying yourself ally combinations.

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
If you are solely comparing a full Bike Ravenwing army with a full Bike White Scar army and buying the exact same units (Named HQ to unlock troops and all bikes with same gear) at the same point level the White Scar army will have roughly 1 extra bike per 5 bikes (or 20% more bikes). The White Scars will also have Skilled Rider (+1 Jink and ignore dangerous terrain) and +1 ST Hammer of Wrath. The Ravenwing will have Grim Resolve. But that would be a ridiculous army build for either RW or WS, and both armies will get blown off the table by a flock of Helldrakes or any army fielding decent "ignores cover" weapons.
Not totally bikes, but significant portions of each. Say, three units of bikes apiece alongside ranged support and a melee unit or something. Grim Resolve is bad. Skilled Rider is really good.

I agree that you cannot build an army out of just bikes, but the bikes you do include will be better in the Space Marine book as White Scars if you're taking any amount of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
However, each army if built TO THE STRENGTHS of their codex will look and play differently. At that point the "WS > RW" comparisons will start to break down as each army has different playstyles and it becomes more of a choice of what units to take that capitalize on the army strengths. (and that is forcing the WS player to only take choices that a RW player would take).
What are the strengths of the DA Codex, really? Terminators as Troops at a premium (Terminators are bad; making them cost even more points for no major gains doesn't make them good, even if you do pay the 190pt Scoring tax) or elite Terminators that don't score or shoot; Standard of Devastation Ravenwing; Divination. Everything else is a MEQ strength, not a DA strength.

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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
All that being said, DA is more than just "Ravenwing" and hopefully a good White Scar army is more than "Bikers in Space". Once you start to work with the whole tools of the codex, the armies diverge even more.
DA has no tool that is particularly good. The Flyers are woeful, the Heavy Support is a restricted form of Codex: Space Marine but without Combat Tactics, you can take some super-expensive elite versions of Bikes and Terminators but neither of them score, or you can add a Darkshroud and pretend you're as good as White Scars until somebody points a pointed implement or Tau gun or Heldrake at your Darkshroud.

White Scars are nice because they're independent; Ravenwing probably outperform them on the first turn when they have their Darkshroud and Standard of Devastation active, but as soon as those fragile cores are removed, the army collapses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
As for the supplement thing...The DA codex didn't leave much room for a supplement. The two divergent armies (Deathwing and Ravenwing) are covered in great detail and given a plethora of special units, equipment and rules. Weird to say, but if DA get a supplement it is most likely to be a "Greenwing" supplement to expand upon the part of the army with the least "character".
True. An errata would be better.

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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-16-13, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Cypher871 View Post
Did I miss something here?
Yup. Supplements focus on a specific faction within a codex army, so the Farsight Enclave for Tau, UM Nid veterans, CSM Black Legion etc.

I can't think of a reason for DA to get one off the top of my head (not that I know much about their fluff, maybe a 'fallen' supplement?), but there could be Flesh Tearers and maybe Lamenters out of the BA dex, or the 13th company for SW.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-16-13, 10:15 PM
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Well while I am glad that GW is producing supplements this one is confusing why they would do a SM vets supplement unless it was to go with the release of the nids codex. I think other chapters or other armies would have benefited from it more. I guess I will just sit here twiddling myself waiting for my ork klans supplement.


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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-16-13, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Yup. Supplements focus on a specific faction within a codex army, so the Farsight Enclave for Tau, UM Nid veterans, CSM Black Legion etc.

I can't think of a reason for DA to get one off the top of my head (not that I know much about their fluff, maybe a 'fallen' supplement?), but there could be Flesh Tearers and maybe Lamenters out of the BA dex, or the 13th company for SW.
I knew they were releasing supplements for all the Codices, just didn't think they would be doing supplements for armies already featured in the main book...oh wait...it's GW, if they can make you spend more cash for the same product they will
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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-16-13, 10:33 PM
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^ Now you're getting it!

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-18-13, 12:29 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cypher871 View Post
I knew they were releasing supplements for all the Codices, just didn't think they would be doing supplements for armies already featured in the main book...oh wait...it's GW, if they can make you spend more cash for the same product they will
Well mate, tell that to us CSM players. We got codex Black Legion with supplement Black Legion to boot

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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-18-13, 12:52 AM
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Well mate, tell that to us CSM players. We got codex Black Legion with supplement Black Legion to boot
Damn those pesky GW staffers...always trying to make an easy buck
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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-20-13, 12:10 AM Thread Starter
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Damn those pesky GW staffers...always trying to make an easy buck
Yepp!


On a more serious note though:
I like the whole idea with supplements, more diversity will in the end mean a more varied game which is good. Its kind of natural that at least some of the first ones will go to high selling armies, lets just hope that the stream of them wont stop pouring...

Now bring me an Emperors Children supplement!

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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-12-14, 11:54 AM
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is up for preorder now

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/dat...94896450?mt=11



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check out what im working on http://instagram.com/revilo444
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