Sisters of Battle Rumours - Page 47 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Wargaming News and 40k Rumors Discuss and share wargaming news, new releases, warhammer and 40k rumors here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #461 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 06:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 398
Reputation: 2
Default

The Condemnor Boltgun is never going to do anything to Elraad or Farseers since they have ghosthelms (they regenerate warp charge every player turn so have charges to burn in your shooting phase). So you can use them vs Grey Knights, Spirit Seers, warlocks, etc., but when you start removing things that you maybe could have used them against and if the target is in a vehicle or if you just plain miss with the weapon, then it becomes very situational and as others have said a meltagun, 10 points, etc. would have been better.

It does ignore cover saves just by hitting with it, but frankly to be useful it would need to be taken multiple times on different squads which means the price needs to be in the 2-5 points to really even be considered.

Wife: "How much do you have invested in these ... miniatures?"

Me: "I don't think invested is the right word."
Suijin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #462 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 06:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 398
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post

But it's a particularly shooty vehicle. You're getting your Av11 tank/5 T3 models within 6" how, exactly?

Midnight
He already answered that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
Long story short: it's a friggin' 12" weapon, if I'm close enough to use it against a vehicle, it's because he's either stupid or has nowhere to run, and at that point I don't care about his smoke launchers or the fact the entire game table is area terrain. If I'm close enough to be in melta range, I don't care even if he has 2+ cover.


or since Dominions have Scout and maybe first player turn, maybe they were just in range. 3 scouting dominions (maybe even outflanking) should be able to get in range of something. The 2+ cover thing was in reference to being probably able to assault anyway at that point.

All of this pertaining to the discussion over Twin-linking vs Ignores Cover, granting that you can't assault on the first player turn or coming in from outflank giving more benefit to Ignores Cover, but not everything is always in cover so you don't always get an Ignore Cover benefit but you can always benefit from Twin-linking (barring hitting and wounding with everything, but that is like saying you get no benefit from Ignores Cover when they fail their Cover save).

As far as ranges the rest of the game:
Ignores Cover - 6" tank move + 6" disembark + 6" 2D6 pen = 18" (24" 8+D6 pen) still covers a lot of board.
Twin-linking - Same as above but they get cover save and you can't assault or 6" move + 6" 2D6 pen shooting + ~7" charge = average 13" threat range (8 - 18" possible) for assaulting or 12" shooting 2D6 pen (18" 8+D6 pen) still covers some board, and with 3 units on the board doing it makes it more possible.

Most of the pro-argument for Twin-linking was that it benefited both weapons of choice. The 12" range of the meltagun as a limiting factor of the weapon we are talking about using also limits the benefits of Ignores Cover as compared to Twin-linking due to being able to assault after shooting. You could still assault after shooting with Ignores Cover the occupants of the vehicle (if there were any), so it is not the worst thing either, but generally just destroying the vehicle is about 75% of the goal. You are looking to destroy a dangerous vehicle or expose the squishy passengers.

I guess another major benefit of Ignores Cover is for those Jetbikes and Bikes Turbo-boosting.

Wife: "How much do you have invested in these ... miniatures?"

Me: "I don't think invested is the right word."
Suijin is offline  
post #463 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 07:26 PM
Senior Member
 
Shandathe's Avatar
Shandathe's Flag is: Netherlands
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,520
Reputation: 14
Default

Short and good:

The pro argument for Twin-Linking is it always works and always works well no matter what weapon you have on hand.
The pro argument for Ignores Cover is that it's just the tiniest bit better than Twin-Linking when your opponent has a Cover save AND you're using Meltaguns (against vehicles), despite it being worse in all other situations.

... yeah.

I seriously have no idea how this being anything other than a nerf to the unit even merited a discussion, let alone how it remains one.

Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers; all of which are true and horrifying to know.
Shandathe is offline  
 
post #464 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 08:34 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
since Dominions have Scout and maybe first player turn, maybe they were just in range. 3 scouting dominions (maybe even outflanking) should be able to get in range of something. The 2+ cover thing was in reference to being probably able to assault anyway at that point.
If somebody's deploying tanks close to you when he knows you have Scouting Meltas on the first turn, he's doing it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I guess another major benefit of Ignores Cover is for those Jetbikes and Bikes Turbo-boosting.
Which is HUGE - Eldar, Necrons and Tau, as armies, have universal Jink on their vehicles, and what are the most powerful armies in the meta at the moment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandathe View Post
The pro argument for Ignores Cover is that it's just the tiniest bit better than Twin-Linking when your opponent has a Cover save AND you're using Meltaguns (against vehicles), despite it being worse in all other situations.
Or against MCs, or elite infantry, or even MEQs (4 Melta shots ignoring cover kills 3 Marines, 4 Flamers rerolling wounds and covering three models each kills, well god damn, 3 Marines). So you're worse at killing Orks and Termagants, which die to the small arms you HAVE to take as Troops anyway, you stay the same against MEQs, and you get better at killing MCs and vehicles. That's a buff, and begs the question: what was so god damn amazing about twin-linked Flamers anyway?

Midnight

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).
MidnightSun is offline  
post #465 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 08:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 398
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
If somebody's deploying tanks close to you when he knows you have Scouting Meltas on the first turn, he's doing it wrong.
Midnight
I thought we were talking about Ignores Cover vs Twin-linking? I don't think either one has a benefit of range.

Now if you are saying people shouldn't take meltaguns, then that is a different discussion.

Wife: "How much do you have invested in these ... miniatures?"

Me: "I don't think invested is the right word."
Suijin is offline  
post #466 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 08:52 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default

No, I'm saying how having Scout and 50/50 chance of first turn doesn't mean your opponent is definitely in range and can't have cover.

Midnight

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).
MidnightSun is offline  
post #467 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 09:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 398
Reputation: 2
Default

But that is totally separate from which is better Ignores Cover vs Twin-linking.

They won't always have cover, but you can always improve your shooting with Twin-linking.

Basically it all doesn't really matter. They are what they are. Take them with meltaguns or don't take them. I think we have went through the various plus and minus to each rule. I personally will probably just take meltagun Dominions and then flamer Seraphim.

I wonder when they are going to FAQ the Seraphim Superior taking eviscerators or not. I suspect the ipad version is older, so they probably won't get it.

Wife: "How much do you have invested in these ... miniatures?"

Me: "I don't think invested is the right word."
Suijin is offline  
post #468 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 10:23 PM
Senior Member
 
Shandathe's Avatar
Shandathe's Flag is: Netherlands
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,520
Reputation: 14
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Which is HUGE - Eldar, Necrons and Tau, as armies, have universal Jink on their vehicles, and what are the most powerful armies in the meta at the moment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Or against MCs, or elite infantry, or even MEQs <SNIP> what was so god damn amazing about twin-linked Flamers anyway?
Eldar and Tau? Not as tough as MEQ. Let's try and keep arguments internally consistent for at least consecutive paragraphs. Meanwhile, for a last time, as noted before
  • Twin-Linked flamers are cheap and excel at flushing troops on objectives out of cover. Additionally, 3 targets under a Template is a conservative estimate.
  • The Twin-Linked ALSO applied for Meltaguns and Bolters, and you weren't married to any single weapon choice if you wanted to take advantage of the AoF.
  • Despite what it sometimes feels like, MEQ and above isn't the only infantry around
  • Horde armies exist, and
  • I'm 80% sure you're just trolling at this point.

I'm done responding to you in this thread.

Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers; all of which are true and horrifying to know.
Shandathe is offline  
post #469 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 11:20 PM
Senior Member
 
SilverTabby's Avatar
SilverTabby's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 1,705
Reputation: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
The Condemnor Boltgun is never going to do anything to Elraad or Farseers since they have ghosthelms (they regenerate warp charge every player turn so have charges to burn in your shooting phase). So you can use them vs Grey Knights, Spirit Seers, warlocks, etc., but when you start removing things that you maybe could have used them against and if the target is in a vehicle or if you just plain miss with the weapon, then it becomes very situational and as others have said a meltagun, 10 points, etc. would have been better.

It does ignore cover saves just by hitting with it, but frankly to be useful it would need to be taken multiple times on different squads which means the price needs to be in the 2-5 points to really even be considered.
Don't forget - you cause perils of the warp by hitting with it. You then roll to wound as well because you've just hit someone with a S5 bolter round So you are potentially causing 2 wounds with the same shot.

Not saying that makes it a better weapon, just pointing out what seems to be overlooked. Unless of course they specifically say you *only* take PotW, and not the wounding hit as well, in which case that *really* sucks...

There are 2 rules to being a success in life:
1) Never give out all the information

A random collection of my stuff
SilverTabby is offline  
post #470 of 486 (permalink) Old 10-22-13, 11:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Shandathe's Avatar
Shandathe's Flag is: Netherlands
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,520
Reputation: 14
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTabby View Post
Not saying that makes it a better weapon, just pointing out what seems to be overlooked. Unless of course they specifically say you *only* take PotW, and not the wounding hit as well, in which case that *really* sucks...
No, you still get the potential Wound (which is likely easily saved, S5 AP- ). Assuming you can get it through whatever unit he's hiding behind.

Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers; all of which are true and horrifying to know.
Shandathe is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Wargaming News, New Releases and Information > Wargaming News and 40k Rumors

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome