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post #101 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-12-08, 06:46 PM
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This is something I have been considering of late and I do think I could have dealed with the new Chaos Codex had they just done marks instead of that ridiculous 'Icon' rollocks. It just annoys the hell out of me, that my heavily converted Plauge Marine havocs are suddenly no longer nurgle if the Icon goes, it makes no bloody sense for one thing, and if it was to save a few pts, I'd rather have paid over the odds for the marks.

I will be converting my armies to Legion if it ever happens, just for the that and for the lesser demon/greater demon set up. The thing I really don't get was Demons already had a option to be fielded alone in fantasy, why didn't they just add them a 40K army but still have the option of having the Daemons as normal in the other books.

From a financial position surely that would have equaled more sales for Daemon figs, especially in fantasy where it now seems they don't fight at all alongside the Mortals and Beasts?

Chaos for me is the current edition is probably the oddest decesion they have ever made as a company, I can't believe the same people who wrote the Realms of Chaos books are still in the company and allowed/embraced the change. Its like Weis/Hickman and the 5th age of Dragonlance all over again for me.



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post #102 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-13-08, 06:22 AM
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IMO we are all guilty of looking back with rose tinted specs at times.

There are a lot of complaints about new Nurgle armies. But in the old codex they were shit! Slow, shit in combat and shit long ranged fire. I think the ability to give the mark makes fluffy army building easy. But hey as far as really competitive (tournament) gaming goes I am to that what Richard Reid was to suicide bombing.

But if one of the biggest gripes is that a charachter can't get blight grenades then I don't think we are in too bad a place.
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post #103 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-15-08, 12:42 AM
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There are a lot of complaints about new Nurgle armies. But in the old codex they were shit! Slow, shit in combat and shit long ranged fire...
Cant really say i agree here.
Sure DG dont sport heavy weapons but you had to be an utter fool not to compensate that with vehicles for heavy support, which back in the old codex had options not thinkable of nowdays.
Or the classical 4 plasmaguns havoc squad, which back in the days had propper marks.
You could take 2 squads in Rhinos as troops, and more as FA if you felt the need. They still had t5, and had true grit and were fearless which imho sums up to a good cc unit. Hell even the plaguebearers were hard due to t5 in CC and poisoned weapons made them dangerous to the few things that took DGs time to grind down(wraithlords and the like).
And the characters now are but a pale shade of the last ed codex chaos characters

Sure they've become even harder now with feel no pain, and the options of making unorthodox DG armies, but saying they were shit in the 3,5 list isnt really correct imho

And yea Druchii, that is probably the biggest of all annoyances in the list for me too. I mean wtf, is only that guy given the mark or wtf? Since if he dies the unit lose the mark, geez

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post #104 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-15-08, 06:45 AM
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Cant really say i agree here.
Sure DG dont sport heavy weapons but you had to be an utter fool not to compensate that with vehicles for heavy support, which back in the old codex had options not thinkable of nowdays.
Or the classical 4 plasmaguns havoc squad, which back in the days had propper marks.
You could take 2 squads in Rhinos as troops, and more as FA if you felt the need. They still had t5, and had true grit and were fearless which imho sums up to a good cc unit. Hell even the plaguebearers were hard due to t5 in CC and poisoned weapons made them dangerous to the few things that took DGs time to grind down(wraithlords and the like).
And the characters now are but a pale shade of the last ed codex chaos characters

Sure they've become even harder now with feel no pain, and the options of making unorthodox DG armies, but saying they were shit in the 3,5 list isnt really correct imho
I am not convinced, and I think much of the proof was in that Death Gaurd armies were as common as pork butchers in Tehran.

You're right that vehicles could compensate to an extent. But in the few times I faced Death Gaurd take out the vehicles and the rest fell apart. And what were the great options available for them? I think possessed is better now than it was, what else was there?

As for true grit and fearless. They now get bolt pistols (I think sorry codex at home) so are actually better than true grit! And they are still fearless so and T5 so no change for the worse.

And a havoc squad with plasma cost what 300 points or so, and thats without a tarted up champion. A little pricey for a one shot unit whose blokes fall over to plasma gets hot as easily as any other marine. And by the way used up one of the heavy support choices you wanted for vehicles.

I actually mourn the loss of power specific daemons as my only real whinge for the new codex but plaguebearers against wraithlords? OK but how many games did you actually get to do that. How many Eldar players were actually dumb enough to let them close? You could never rely on the tactic as you never new when or where they would turn up. I never collected a Deathgaurd army but had a small squad of daemons from each power in my Word Bearers army (Still there in fact) and they only ever really functioned as a roadblock. Furies, Daemonettes and Bloodletters all performed better over a couple of years on the table.

As for charachters I always thought the old ones were overpowered anyway so don't mind them calming down. All my opinion obviously but in my experience Deathgaurd were shit. (By the way I loved the idea as fluffy as hell but was too scared to take on the project of doing them properly painting and modelling wise).
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post #105 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-15-08, 01:44 PM
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You're right that vehicles could compensate to an extent. But in the few times I faced Death Gaurd take out the vehicles and the rest fell apart. And what were the great options available for them? I think possessed is better now than it was, what else was there?
We had predators with AV 14/12/11 and dreadnoughts with 13/13/11. Our vehicles used to be scary things on the tables, they could all have a pair of DDCW for a measly few points, could cause other units to quake in terror, or even give out own units fearless via loudspeaker. They were -fantastic- vehicles.

Also possession might be better, but we can't take it on units that really would benefit from it. Also I think it costs more.

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As for true grit and fearless. They now get bolt pistols (I think sorry codex at home) so are actually better than true grit! And they are still fearless so and T5 so no change for the worse.
Those pistols are almost a commodity, if you're charging with plague marines, something went wrong if you're playing competitively. Although I agree plague marines were, without a doubt, buffed significantly this codex.

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And a havoc squad with plasma cost what 300 points or so, and thats without a tarted up champion. A little pricey for a one shot unit whose blokes fall over to plasma gets hot as easily as any other marine. And by the way used up one of the heavy support choices you wanted for vehicles.
Actually I'd have to do the math on that, I believe our weaponry on a whole costs alot more this edition...Also our obliterators used to be in the elites, so even without the tanks we'd do well.

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I actually mourn the loss of power specific daemons as my only real whine for the new codex but plaguebearers against wraithlords? OK but how many games did you actually get to do that. How many Eldar players were actually dumb enough to let them close?
It was called the daemonbomb. We used to be able to do it. Nobody besides the inquisition could do anything to stop it.

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You could never rely on the tactic as you never new when or where they would turn up. I never collected a Deathgaurd army but had a small squad of daemons from each power in my Word Bearers army (Still there in fact) and they only ever really functioned as a roadblock. Furies, Daemonettes and Bloodletters all performed better over a couple of years on the table.
I'll agree that I never gave plague bearers much of a look through, bloodletters were amazing, and daemonettes rocked.

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Originally Posted by the cabbage View Post
As for characters I always thought the old ones were overpowered anyway so don't mind them calming down. All my opinion obviously but in my experience Deathgaurd were shit. (By the way I loved the idea as fluffy as hell but was too scared to take on the project of doing them properly painting and modelling wise).
The older characters had a bunch of zany, nonsensical rules that made them fun to do, they weren't so much 'point and click' like they are now.

Last edited by LordWaffles; 10-15-08 at 05:17 PM.
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post #106 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-15-08, 03:02 PM
 
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I'll second the frustration I have with the seperation of god-specific demons in the chaos codex. Used to be a great combo when I could use my plague Marines as a static base, let them come close and them bam! - summon those daemonettes and rend the heck out of them. Now - generic demons aren't even worth the points, let alone the cost of models.
The demon bomb started to become ridiculous though with some powergamers - good example:
Daemonlord of Slaanesh - couldn't target it with ranged weapons (pychic power), wings, all tooled up. Icon
Chaos Lt, greater daemon vessel.
Squad of infiltrating chosen with plasma guns. Icon.
6 squads of daemonettes (as many as he could fit in).
Either the chosen would infiltrate close up to you or the Daemonlord would fly right up near you - boom - daemonettes started popping in and assaulting. Rending and combat consolidation would take care of the rest.
Either way - I like how they toned the demonbomb down, but hate the generic demons associated with the newer codex.
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post #107 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-16-08, 03:11 AM
 
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I still play word bearers and i still enjoy the daemon bomb yeah they toned it down and i do like that too, its something i can throw in there and they're meat. and for marine stats two attacks being fearless and having an invul, yeah thats not bad for being 2 points cheeper than csm's as well as theres no point in loading them down with upgrades and they dont take up foc slots they make up a GREAT meat squad you can just throw at something, same with the greater daemon, its a monster for what it costs, i would have kept maybe a lesser daemon for FA like a winged lesser daemon IE fury type thing so we have SOMETHING in FA thats not wtf pointsink, and maybe throw the lesser daemons a bone, let a model take a mark so they get /something/ to differenciate between each other, i mean for the needs of CSM i think the daemons fill a slot that the marines needed a cheep meat unit, just the absence of so much fluff...hurts...so much...so...dry
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post #108 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-16-08, 03:28 AM
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word bearers are probably the legion that got hurt the least( I am a little jealous), and in some ways even helped out. Sure there are no true dark apostles, but the daemon weapons are better. the lesser daemons are weaker, but you can have as many as points allow.

This having been said, much of the flavor is gone, I loved being able to give my champions nurgle's rot, as I imagined them as being contagious, and giving more than one type of possession to my vehicle created many conversion ideas, such as a predator that had a slug-style pseudopod instead of tracks, and worms and cables sprouting forth from all over.
The loss of cultists also hurts, as I have always had an eye towards a cultist list for alpha legion. many of the options that are gone are the ones that were fun, but not too powerful.

as for obliterators, they are not as versatile as imagined, as they can only use one of those many weapons per turn, and other options can be just as versatile, do it better, and for a lot less points.

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post #109 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-16-08, 02:40 PM
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word bearers are probably the legion that got hurt the least
Nope. Thousand Sons got the best end of the deal, legion-wise. My boys went from being the most useless troop in the codex to being incredibly deadly.

one thing I want is the ability to split my fire everywhere, it makes no sense that a squad of 10 guard or marines or whatever all have to fire at 1 target with everything, is the guy with the lascannon not smart enough to realize maybe he would be better off firing at the massive tank looming overhead instead of the little man no bigger than a squat running at him, or is that far too complex for the 10yr olds?

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post #110 of 204 (permalink) Old 10-16-08, 03:23 PM
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Nope. Thousand Sons got the best end of the deal, legion-wise. My boys went from being the most useless troop in the codex to being incredibly deadly.
If short-ranged and doomed against any vehicle with semi-decent armor....

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
-The Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Dune


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