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post #651 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SavageConvoy View Post
And I know people will just say "Wait till they update your army." Because I just spent crap tons of money and time for tiny shelf decorations. I'm not trying to bitch and/or moan. I am, but that's not the point. I'm just trying to emphasize why I think a rumor may be a really bad change if true. I know it's speculation until it hits paper. But I've seen a lot of rumors prove true and I'm not seeing why I shouldn't anticipate this one.
Mind you, if you have only one army and if it's an older one (like Tau, which I think you did specify), an edition change can be really worst than for most. I remember the 5th ed. FAQ that came out for WH and DH. I did bitch & moan, in fact, the whole crowd at B&C did so loud enough to get GW to change it.

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post #652 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 07:40 PM
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Yeah I could see a rules change really affect the fun factor with only one army. Hopefully they won't completely give anyone the shaft. Flyer rules for instance sound great...if you have flyers or at LEAST a way to deal with them. Sort of hoping that Eldar tanks get FAQ'd to count as flyers. Though they had some apoc rules like that. We shall see what all happens pretty quick here though.
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post #653 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 07:44 PM
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I love the sound of those changes: suddenly the Necron codex makes perfect sense.

Why give a shooting unit like Destroyers Preferred Enemy unless it applies to shooting?
Why have Jump Infantry assault units with I2 unless they get some early smacks in?
Reanimation Protocols 5+ would be the same as, but better than, FNP.

Necrons are starting to sound like a codex written for 6th ed.
I was actually hoping for Preffered Enemy to affect shooting. It's some of the other stuff I have issue with. I really don't like all assault distances to be random. That actually screws Beasts and Calvary unless they change their rules significantly. If you give Wraiths the Whip Coils, initiative is rarely an issue. And Reanimation can be upgraded to a 4+. The reason it is 5+ base is because it is loads better than FNP. The only armies I could see being able to boost FNP similarly would be Marine variants. Say that an Apothecary or Priest gives 4+ FNP out to 6" but only 5+ out to 12". But then every other army is stuck with only 5+ and that makes DE very killable.

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post #654 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 07:49 PM
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All Psykers are dirty dirty heretics and you can keep them. Update BT already. And dont fuck it up.
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post #655 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 09:59 PM
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It's one thing to say "Based on what we know at the moment, this doesn't look too good." or "I don't like the way this rumor sounds, but maybe we're missing something." and another to say "GW is evil, they ruin everything forever, they punched my grandmother and gave my cat several purple nurples!" (paraphrasing of course). I'm not against opinions, I'm against rash, unfounded reactions that often end up so disproportionate to the actual rumor that the negativity actually affects people's perceptions of what we actually get.
Why are you so interested in controlling other people's ideas and reactions though? If someone's gut instinct is to say, this sucks and I hope they don't do it like this. Why shouldn't they be able to say it? Alot of people in here (myself not included) think that the psychic changes could be bad because they have experience with fantasy. I don't and the changes to the psychic stuff sound interesting and possibly cool. But for all I know it's going to blow chucks. Your exaggeration of people's reaction is silly. I think alot of us know that gws is not the best at rules and gameplay, so we are just hoping that they improve instead of making something worse. It's the great models and the cool lore that make us stay (that and the fact that everyone plays 40k so it's hard to play anything else).

What I prefer to bitch about is adding of more random unpredictable effects. Particularly random charging distances and random terrain. If you are within 30 feet of your target, you should be able to accurately predict how long it will take to move up to them. Running isn't a chaotic procedure, and people should be able to run in a normal way without sometimes only running 5 feet and sometimes 30 feet.

As for mysterious terrain, I think they should add a mission where there is mysterious terrain. call the mission death world and in that place all the terrain has bizarre effects. I don't want mysterious terrain in every game because it doesn't make sense. If i'm playing in a ruined city, I want the buildings to be reliably predictable. If I walk into it, it will be a ruined building inside and movement is slightly impeded. No tentacles leaping out of walls or poisonous indigenous life forms killing space marines that are in power armor or whatever.

Perhaps if they had levels of mysterious terrain, like, "You find ammo inside the building." That wouldn't be so bad I guess. But if it's like, "Oh shit there's a fucking bomb inside the building and it blows up your shit!" that will be frustrating. Maybe if they had 1 of the 6 missions be 'mysterious terrain' and there was mysterious stuff in each different kind of terrain. something for forrest and something for ruins.

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post #656 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTabby View Post
Also, the complaints of "but this army has no counter" can easily be fixed by having a list in the BRB or on an FAQ of generic wargear (similar to the stuff any army in WHF can take).
That is true.

However: when was the last time GW ever addressed imbalances in such a manner?

In fact, you could argue that the actively stomp on outdated armies, given Grey Knights hard-countering Daemons and having a pretty much specific anti-Tau bit of wargear.
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post #657 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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Why are you so interested in controlling other people's ideas and reactions though? If someone's gut instinct is to say, this sucks and I hope they don't do it like this. Why shouldn't they be able to say it? Alot of people in here (myself not included) think that the psychic changes could be bad because they have experience with fantasy. I don't and the changes to the psychic stuff sound interesting and possibly cool. But for all I know it's going to blow chucks. Your exaggeration of people's reaction is silly. I think alot of us know that gws is not the best at rules and gameplay, so we are just hoping that they improve instead of making something worse. It's the great models and the cool lore that make us stay (that and the fact that everyone plays 40k so it's hard to play anything else).
I'm not looking to control anyone. Heck, I WANT people to have ideas and opinions (or else we'd all be the same...and I really don't want a world of people who all play the same army the same way all the time) I'm just saying that we look more like a group of well reasoned adults when we don't jump to conclusions before all the facts are in. Yes the actual rules CAN be bad, but more often than not the general reaction is considerably overblown, especially in light of how the full rules work (the rumored Ward Staves, the Necron Character who was rumored to hit all models in a unit that were the same with shooting attacks, and the possibility that Necrons were going to get FnP instead of Resurrection Protocols come to mind as a few examples of things I've seen get blown out of proportion on incomplete, incorrect or partial rumors). I just recommend salt and not jumping to conclusions. If you want to that's fine, but I'm still going to advocate salt, and waiting for the full ruleset before jumping to conclusions.

Let's look at the rumors for the psychic powers for a moment: what we know is that there is a deck of cards and unconfirmed rules saying their will be some common powers. But what the reactions are saying is that we're hinging the sucess on an entire edition on the mechanic that we know next to nothing about for this edition. That's a lot to weigh in on this one peice of a puzzle.

And considering that this isn't the only forum I look at (I regularly check Warseer, DakkaDakka along with several blog sites and running Google searches for new tidbits) I can say that my perception of the reactions isn't that far off. I've seen more anger, whining and general bile in reaction to just about anything than is probably good for anyone to have to look at. To say the internet tends to be a machine that generates its own drama often for no reason really isn't that out of line from my viewpoint at least.

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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
What I prefer to bitch about is adding of more random unpredictable effects. Particularly random charging distances and random terrain. If you are within 30 feet of your target, you should be able to accurately predict how long it will take to move up to them. Running isn't a chaotic procedure, and people should be able to run in a normal way without sometimes only running 5 feet and sometimes 30 feet.
I can see where you're coming from, but you're getting mad about a rumor that doesn't encapsulate the full Assault Phase. For all we know there'll be other rules that come into effect with this, or this could be more specific than we currently know.

And out in the open on flat ground, sure running isn't a problem and you should be able to cover ground easilly but on uneven terrain (or fields with gopher holes) or through craters, or over deep gravel I can say from experiance that you won't always be able to run as fast since the terrain could easilly cause a wide variety of injuries, or trip you up.

Another way to look at the run move is that the models started running in the movement phase, and then slow down/stop in the shooting phase. Enviromental conditions would still apply of course, but it at least makes more sense than saying your models sprinted a meter.

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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
As for mysterious terrain, I think they should add a mission where there is mysterious terrain. call the mission death world and in that place all the terrain has bizarre effects. I don't want mysterious terrain in every game because it doesn't make sense. If i'm playing in a ruined city, I want the buildings to be reliably predictable. If I walk into it, it will be a ruined building inside and movement is slightly impeded. No tentacles leaping out of walls or poisonous indigenous life forms killing space marines that are in power armor or whatever.
The easiest way to fix the terrain thing is to ignore it if it turns out to be useless/broken. At my FLGS that's been the policy for the 8th edition magical terrain rules. The only exception is occasionally there is a peice or two added to a board for tournament games.

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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
Perhaps if they had levels of mysterious terrain, like, "You find ammo inside the building." That wouldn't be so bad I guess. But if it's like, "Oh shit there's a fucking bomb inside the building and it blows up your shit!" that will be frustrating. Maybe if they had 1 of the 6 missions be 'mysterious terrain' and there was mysterious stuff in each different kind of terrain. something for forrest and something for ruins.
That could be interesting. Depending on what they have that might be worth developing into a homebrew mission.
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post #658 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-12-12, 11:43 PM
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That is true.

However: when was the last time GW ever addressed imbalances in such a manner?

In fact, you could argue that the actively stomp on outdated armies, given Grey Knights hard-countering Daemons and having a pretty much specific anti-Tau bit of wargear.
Grey Knights actually are just as, if not more effective against 'nids than Daemons, as they have stuff that affects psykers and ALL Synapse counts as psykers. And they do nasty things to multi-wound things - oh wait...

People only really tend to see the balance addresses when it specifically applies to them. And then, if it addresses it in a detrimental fashion, they don't class it as rebalancing, they class it as 'nerfing'.

My last ever game using the WH codex, I went all-out to make the list specifically anti-DE. My opponent had a number of WTF? moments, spent the game getting very frustrated and had his main units locked in a sandpaper CC for 4 turns because I kept making my 3++ saves. The new Codex addressed all the imbalances that made that game horribly unfun, in my opinion made a pure Sisters force better, and yet the internet is screaming about it being 'nerfed'.

Simple thing is, some people will like the changes, some won't, and those who don't like it will always shout the loudest.

I'll be buying my BRB on release day, reading it over about a week, then making up my mind after a few dozen games. I doubt I'll do much internet reading before then, as the haters will be screaming from the rooftops and it'll be hard to hear the good things...

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post #659 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-13-12, 02:03 AM
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Things I hope get fixed:

- Wound allocation shenanigans where it can sometimes be to your advantage to fire less weapons to cause more wounds. That's just idiotic.

- Kill points. Why is my 50 point unit worth the same as your 350 point unit when figuring out who won?

- The near-invulnerability of passengers in transports that explode

What will probably happen:

- Vehicles will get even awesomer, because its the easiest way to drive expensive model sales. I have a feeling dedicated transports will become more or less mandatory for competitive armies.

- The psyker rules revamp, since they did it in Fantasy and the codex rules are really all over the place. Kind of ambivalent here, as the rules do need work, but it's an easy thing to screw up for the very reason that they're handled so differently across codexes.

In any case, I have a big pile of Marine parts that have been mothballed until 6th comes out. No point starting an army until I have some idea how they'll play.
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post #660 of 841 (permalink) Old 06-13-12, 02:29 AM Thread Starter
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In any case, I have a big pile of Marine parts that have been mothballed until 6th comes out. No point starting an army until I have some idea how they'll play.
I'm sitting on the urge to start a Daemons army depending how the new rules look for infantry and deep striking look. So I can sympathize.

Last edited by Zion; 06-13-12 at 02:37 AM.
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