6th Edition Rumours (1st Post Updated 17 June 2012) - Page 40 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #391 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-25-12, 01:23 PM
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Saying that armies balance out with shooting and combat is also a laughable point. The two top codices at the minute: GK and SW, can both do shooting and combta better than most other armies in the game, however both of them still tend towards shooting. Assault is really only great for one thing: stopping things from shooting and annoying movement.
*Ahem* Imperial Guard.
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post #392 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-25-12, 03:49 PM
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As someone who depends heavily on CC for my 'nids, I have quite a bit of trouble killing things in CC unless I've planned it carefully, simply because the stats have levelled out so much since 2nd.

Once, CC troops were nails, and Shooty troops were good at shooting. Now most are ok at both.

For example: genestealers were once the most feared CC critter out there. WS 7, S6, 4 attacks and I6-8? Ouch. Now? They are more or less the same as marines, with a couple of attacks ad initiative that is about equal to most Eldar. No power weapons, just a small chance that some wounds will bust armour. No-one really fears the genestealer any more.

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post #393 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-25-12, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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As someone who depends heavily on CC for my 'nids, I have quite a bit of trouble killing things in CC unless I've planned it carefully, simply because the stats have levelled out so much since 2nd.

Once, CC troops were nails, and Shooty troops were good at shooting. Now most are ok at both.

For example: genestealers were once the most feared CC critter out there. WS 7, S6, 4 attacks and I6-8? Ouch. Now? They are more or less the same as marines, with a couple of attacks ad initiative that is about equal to most Eldar. No power weapons, just a small chance that some wounds will bust armour. No-one really fears the genestealer any more.
I don't know, my Battle Sisters still don't want to be anywhere near even 3-4 Genestealers. :p

More to the recent conversation regarding shooting vs close-combat units: A really good round of shooting typically nets me a few dead models in a squad. A good round of close combat nets me the removal of the opponent's squad completely. Typically how I see shooting is a way to soften, delay or potentially finish off an enemy unit. I can't count on it to do the job on it's own, so I usually need to go in and hit the unit I want dead with something close combaty

The problem I have with the claim that shooting is king (from someone who's army only really gets at shooting within 12" of the opponent's models) is that the biggest problem I run into is that I can not reliably nueteralize an opponent's army unless I focus fire on a specific target until it's dead (and we can't see if it's fleeing until AFTER we finish shooting at it. If I spread out the shooting to hit a little of everything I can weaken but not break his list. For me my close combat units can on the otherhand remove 2-3 threats from the table in a good round of combat (choosing your targets helps a lot too) and can often be the deciding factor on how well I'll do in a given game/turn

Personally I feel that 40K has a good balance in it's rock-paper-scissors feel. Units that are good at shooting are either restricted by the range of their weapons (Sisters) or aren't that good in combat (WS/S/T3 like some of the Sisters units, Guard and Tau). Units that do combat well either can't shoot or don't bring a lot of quality shots (a unit of Bolt Pistols is how Marines tend to handle it and though Orks get around their quality control issues with quantity, they do that for everything and have other weaknesses (like low leadership and initiave) or have really poor range (usually 12" or less). And balanced units tend to have Rapid Fire weapons, or run around being basically okay at everything while not being awesome at it (Tactical Marines are a good example of units that are okay at anything you put them up to, but aren't the best at it).

As for really awesome shooting vehicles they can't do combat (free hits at their rear armor regardless where you attack from in relation to it!), can be kept from shooting their awesome weapons by being stunned/shaken/weapon destroyed/wrecked/exploded, and if their walkers they either tend to be in squadron (which makes them a little more survivable but means they wreck on a 4-5 and explode on a 6) or are independent but suffer the same issues as regular vehicles, have middling armor (typically 12) and can be killed rather quickly by a decent player.

Really all it comes down to for me in the end is the dice screwing you over. Because in all honesty that tends to be the most effective way to lose a game these days (at least for me) as it effects me more than being shot, assaulted or even deployment.

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post #394 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-25-12, 06:09 PM
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*Ahem* Imperial Guard.
Shame I have only ever played one decent imperial guard player, and beat him. Every other guard player i have played has been shite, but I fail to see how they are better than GK or Wolves, both of those armies have wonderful counters to guard. not saying guard aren't good, but they are just slightly behind wolves and the Gay boys.

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post #395 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-25-12, 07:10 PM
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No-one really fears the genestealer any more.
Oh I keep my eyes on Ymgarls on the table. Seen them take down Dreadnaughts. I agree though CC is so evened out you need those extra attacks to do anything. It sort of bothers me a big hulking Wraithlord should in theory be able to just squish your nids into the ground but the way the rolls are it's at best got a 50/50 shot at getting one skill depending...definitely works out like that versus Marines. Super human or not it does feel like some units are easy to counter. Even the WS 10 the avatar brings isn't THAT scary. Useful, but very beatable while being maxed out.

Friend of mine has the same issue with his big nids though as I like to shoot the crap out of them second they're in range. Of course thinking of any man vs bug sci-fi movie I guess you have to be creative with swarming to make the most out of CC.

Of course shooting seems so much more straight forward.
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post #396 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-25-12, 07:46 PM
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For example: genestealers were once the most feared CC critter out there. WS 7, S6, 4 attacks and I6-8? Ouch. Now? They are more or less the same as marines, with a couple of attacks ad initiative that is about equal to most Eldar. No power weapons, just a small chance that some wounds will bust armour. No-one really fears the genestealer any more.
They're still very, very scary for armies that don't have solid (meaning fairly competent and tough) troops. Sisters of Battle, Tau, Vanilla Marines and so on can have a difficult time if the Genestealers can get into close combat. Some other armies don't have too difficult a time with them because they're super shooty (Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Necrons) or competent close combat fighters (Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Orks).

It's not that Genestealers are bad, it's just that six of them can't rip through several units in a row before going down anymore. My Blood Angels still aren't a big fan of seeing Genestealers, especially if there's multiple units of them Infiltrating and pretty much anyone that isn't meched up still needs to worry.
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post #397 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-25-12, 08:19 PM
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Well, speaking from the space wolf standpoint, i like seeing stealers because of counter attack. The lack of grenades is the stealer's only massive issue, because if they could charge through terrain and hit at initiative my wolves would be terrified, but as is i sit in terrain with grey hunters, let them try and charge, if they fail i bolter them, if they pass i ounter attack and kill most of them before they can attack. win-win really.

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Keep in mind you are arguing "realism" about an army of genetically-altered supermen that are able to shrug off rocket propelled explosive bullets because someone is waving around a cup full of blood that reminds them of their long lost Super Daddy that was killed by there Extra Special-Super Uncle.
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post #398 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-26-12, 12:53 AM
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TKE is 100% correct, shooting is the dominant force in 5th ed. . . .
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Well, neither of us has the time, I imagine, to go through those characters one-by-one, but suffice it to say that 90% or more of them are shit. . . .
Did I just commit a social faux pas there?

TKE, you obviosly feel very strongly about your viewpoint, and I can see why - I'm not completely blind to your points at all.

Suffice to say, without making this another page long retort, I still disagree. Primarily because I dont play in tourneys anymore. Finding that killer combination list isn't as important to me these days as it used to be, and as such, I find my games, and the phases to be far more of a balanced affair.

I suppose it could be argued that the tourney events push the system to its limits, where inconsistences will be highlighted to a greater degree.

Also, just so you know, I am a Tau player, and have been since release - and I totally agree that BS3 sucks. I'm also a Guard player, so I suppose there's no hope left for me then?

In any case, it'll still be interesting to see the new edition and the changes it will bring.

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post #399 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-26-12, 01:01 AM
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Suffice to say, without making this another page long retort, I still disagree. Primarily because I dont play in tourneys anymore. Finding that killer combination list isn't as important to me these days as it used to be, and as such, I find my games, and the phases to be far more of a balanced affair.
Yeah, I'm finding this too. Ever since I stopped playing competitively the game has become a mix of shooting and assault with neither one really having more importance than the other. I'm finding it a much more entertaining affair too.
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post #400 of 841 (permalink) Old 05-26-12, 01:06 AM
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I'm finding it a much more entertaining affair too.
Indeed.

I have no issues at all with most tourney players and their armies of uber destruction, but since I left all that behind, got out the cakes and coffee and just played for fun, I've enjoyed my hobby a whole helluva lot more.

Its all relative really isn't it.

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"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.


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