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post #41 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
The fact you seem utterly against the idea of staff helping the players and leaving it all to its own devices shows to me you want them to have no active role in organising games
Quote me or Elessar as saying that me don't want staff to be helpful. Quote me.

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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
The fact you both are dead set against a very simple idea to try and help also reinforces my belief in this
It's a flawed idea though - it's a trust-based system that's trying to get rid of scumbags, and scumbags are universally untrustworthy.

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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
The fact one of you actually has the audacity to say that a waac player could be a victim further reinforces this.
I'm not alone. Here's a whole page explaining it in more detail. I'm sure that TKE will vouch for both my view, and on the validity of 3++. For those who don't want to read all that text, here's the important bit:

Quote:
OK, so how does this compare to your local game store, then? Suppose you the player in the above example want to attend the local game shop. You show up, and check the window - nowhere does it say whether people there drink beers, play with painted armies, are rules lawyers or use power lists or play casually or what, etc. You walk in, and see a bunch of powerful unpainted armies on the tables and people barking and laughing and competing intensely. You walk into the store further, and ask someone for a game. A giant, stinky douchey guy walks up and goes "WHAT'S YOUR ARMY?!?!" "Why, I play footdar! (sorry, dudes, I couldn't help myself)" and he replies with a big grin and "haha, sure I'll play a game, lol, do you mind if I proxy some stuff??" When you say "proxy, what's that?" he laughs in your face.

Aimlessly, starting to feel a little peeved at this dude, you regardless set up on the table ... BUT WAIT, "WE HAVE TO ROLL FOR SIDES FIRST MAN, AND THEN TERRAIN AND MISSIONS AND SHIT, RAR" ... it gets worse and worse. You keep playing.

What is your problem, you retard? Why the hell did you keep going with starting this game? Is it your opponent's fault? Is he a big flaming jerk? Maybe. Is he to blame for you not having fun? NO. You ignored every signal, and kept on walking right into it.

Didn't your geek brain have some giant mental image of this going off every 3 seconds?

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NO, it didn't, b/c you're not emotionally mature enough to walk into an environment not comprised entirely of people identical to you. Sorry, it's true.

Your JOB in life, to attain happiness, is to understand what you need and to see your needs fulfilled. It is not the responsibility of others to make you happy. The big fat stinky douche in the above example is not out to destroy your fun - he's out to be himself, quite unabashedly might I say. Good for him. YOU'RE THE REAL JERK if you spend the game pissed off, hating the guy, and talk shit about him for years afterward to your buddies. It was your choice to ignore every sign and retardedly accept the game with him. What did you think was going to happen?
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post #42 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
In 40k cos-play outfits, that would certainly bring in the punters

Depending on how big you are planning to make the place you could base it on Warhammer world; lots of game boards and a refreshments area.

Putting refreshments on sale wouldn't cost too much, the tuck shop I run in my office made 500 profit last year, and that was just from me buying the stuff at the pound shop and selling it 5 or 10p less than the shop across the road (100 staff in the office to give you an idea of the market audience).

As long as you feed the profit back into the business you won't have to pay any tax...

Anyway, like I said, if you need some help give me a shout, I have quite a bit of experience in organising events and things.

Rev
Perhaps not strippers but something like what we have in the US. Take a look around the web for D20 Girls. They are a group of female gamers(shocking I know) who promote the positive aspects of various game systems and females being involved. They are there to have fun and help everyone else have fun too.

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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
I really don't wanna see strippers dressed as space marines, ogryns and ratlings thanks.

Gimme strippers dressed as German panzer captains thank you, with some strippers in French napoleonic uniforms.. skimpy ones
That's just what I want when playing a wargame. A dominatrix cracking a whip next to me.

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The stripper market is over-saturated in Birmingham(so I've heard).
Try for something not so sexually based. The D20 Girls can't be a purely American concept. You get women there, under any context, including nerdettes coming to game, and guy nerds will show up because guys like interacting with women.

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Originally Posted by Ultra1 View Post
if i were in your area i'd like to see a place with nice terrain. sweet terrain makes games more fun for me. my local game store is small and has a limited selection of terrain and most of it isn't painted. i don't think the owner makes enough to put the serious amounts required into getting nice terrain. you'll have to be careful though, not all people are careful with things that aren't theirs. make sure you have enough space to properly store it, make sure you label the areas so you don't have terrain all jumbled up anywhere they can find to put it. this will help keep it neat and orderly.

i'll also second selling snacks and such, my local only sells sodas and while nice, it'd be better if he sold snacks. he'd probably make a small fortune off peanut M&Ms from myself alone.

also, get starter boxes for games so that newcomers can try them out ie island of blood, black reach, warmachine starter etc. have them painted so the newbies can see how cool everything looks.

a designated area for people to paint would also be nice, buy a couple of tall floor lamps for better light in that area.

get some really nicely painted minis and put them in a display case, this will also help with the lookers, you could let regular patrons store extremely well painted minis in the case so you didn't have to buy and paint them yourself.

well those are my thoughts on the perfect game store. hope that helps.
Terrain is difficult for a starting club as it gets expensive quick. My gaming store has been around long enough that they have donated terrain. It's not all great but we can set the tables up in dynamic ways if we choose. Some people also choose to bring their own terrain pieces to add in for the day. The store owners do frequently set the tables but sometimes an early arriving player will help. But that player, being a good sport will not choose the table played on for any of their games.

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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
I also would like to know about the local gaming interests, is it just 40k and fantasy?, is there known to be a adequate historical gaming scene (and I don't mean flames of war, that's not historical).

How open are the people who may attend to other systems?
Will it be a mostly competetive scene?
What would be some basic rules? (i don't want to come and play against grey plastic or poorly done models, a set skill level system would be nice so people are put against equals in all things)
What's the area considered like? Easy to get to? Quiet area? Shops local to? Public toilets near or in venue?

I know that's part of what this is for, but if its being set up by gamers for gamers there should be a good idea already, if its not being set up by gamers my interest plumets to nil (gw is already staffed by people with no interest in the product)
Keeping track of skill level, especially when it comes to painting is very elitest of you. You may have time to make all your minis pretty but some of us work and have little time to paint. So yes, parts of my armies are still grey. That says nothing of my painting skill, just the time I have. Furthermore, painting and gaming skill is subjective. Half the people I show a model to like it, the other half hate it. Guess I'm a mediocre painter because personal preference for certain colors and schemes and "what I would've done with that" play not part in this. As for gaming skill. If I win every game I play because all my opponents have made fun lists to try things out because they want to see how they work, does that make me a better player than somebody who lost every game because all his opponents brought power lists? So excluding or categorizing players just creates an elitest environment that is actually intimidating to new players because they are being judged right away, possibly by what army they choose to play.

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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
Flames of war is not a WWII games, its a GW combination of rules, created by ex GW staff creating a very poor game that poorly represents WWII, its reasons like that (and the poor prices, product quality and continuous release of expensive books constantly adding stupid things to the game) that FOW is utterly forbidden down here
Elitest. Good thing everyone you play with is just like you.

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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post


Is it official that this guy's Stella now?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
It is not gestapo tactics, its a way to help people, a way to guide them and give them suggestions

If a player in the end decides to play a waac player despite you suggesting they don't, then yes it is there fault, if however they have no idea of there opponent, his skill and attitude it is the clubs fault for not helping make either player aware, they basically abandon these hobbyists.

I am not saying you forcefully make players equal play another, your guiding.

Obviously as I said some people must have shitty gaming enviroments to suggest these are gestapo tactics, or suggest a waac player is as equal a victim as a casual player they prey on.
That's your first post that did not imply this was forced upon all participates. Perhaps that is the reason for hostility, not the idea itself. People like their free will. You can suggest I do something all you want, but in the end, I'll do what I feel like doing. And, most of the players I know WILL play differently when facing a new and especially a first time player. Granted, we must be friendlier or more casual, certainly less competitive than your group. The point is to teach a new player, let them learn and have fun. By your system, if I take a soft list to teach a new player who has basic units and I loose, my ranking goes down. Nevermind that I'm ensuring they come back and improve their tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
Example

New player comes to club, they are nervous, quiet and timid
You people want no part to be played by the staff of this club, so for this example they have no part
Waac player notices new player
Waac player offers new player game
New player being eager and keen to play accepts
Waac player chooses a 6x4 board and sets up terrain to be in his favour because no staff were involved to do it BEFORE the club opens
New player being timid and inexperienced accepts how his superior sets the board
Players deploy
New player has a black reach + battleforce army (a generally accepted starting point)
Experienced player has purifier spam lust (a generally accepted power list)
The game begins
New player is slow to act, shows inexperienced tactics and choices and generally acts like a new player
Waac player exploits RAW to its fullest extent, exploits his list to its fullest extent and within a few turns wins
New player feels disheartened, confused and sad
Waac player...well does what they do best, gloats, boasts and acts like a cock
New player never returns, never buys more models and takes no part in wargaming
The staff taking no active role (as per certain posters obvious wishes and selfish beliefs) are oblivious to what has happened and never deal with the problem
Club fails.

BUT....at least we know, the waac player, was the actual victim in all of this.
Most of the players I know would step in and help the new player in that situation. If a known power/waac player is at my store and we see a new player arrive, several of us are going to get between those two players to avoid the situation. Where I play, there is usually only 1 or 2 staff working and if they took time to run our gaming group for us, it would hurt their sales and we could wind up with no place to play when the store closed. They trust us to run it and keep things civilized as most of us are adults(at least 18) and we can handle a situation maturely. We have no ranking system and most come for a fun game and a chance to bullshit with people who have similar interests. Some are more competitive but we know who they are and help new players learn how each of us plays. Ohh, and unpainted models are just as welcome as world-class painted ones, WAngmar.

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post #43 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:15 PM
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post #44 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:18 PM
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But mine was still better. Dan's was just excessive.

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post #45 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:22 PM
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I'm covering more than just WAngmar though. There were posts I missed because of work that I wanted to touch on. I want to help the gaming arena in addition to burying him neck deep in shit. Maybe my frustration got the better of me.

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post #46 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:24 PM
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Go calm down and fix your joke detector

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post #47 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:33 PM
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Fuck me how many times must I repeat myself

1: king: no it is not the job if staff to organise every game, that is why I never said that, I said it is there job to HELP organise games, this us especially so if there is no online ability for people, they will look for guidance, especially new players

2: king: waac players would be welcome, the point is for staff to help guide these players to like minded players, same with begginers, players should stick to the games they are playing and leave it to the staff unless needed if asked for, it is why they are there and to enforce penalties or punishments while remaining impartial, players usually cannot do this because they only care about there game and there opinions vary too much, so stay out if it if report it to staff (just like how a forum us run)

3: midnight: check kings last post

4: midnight: I never said it was a perfect system, I said IT'S A BUILDING BLOCK, it is up to the staff to observe to gain further information to help in the future to GUIDE PLAYERS.

5: midnight: 3++ remains I see to be as exaggerated as always, the signs are not always that obvious to new players, even to us older players, that is the point in staff getting to know the gamers to help people.

6:Dan: painting skill has nothing to do with elitism, keeping track of it and encouraging players to improve and paint more means they get more done, but it can help in some gaming situations as I have seen allot of new players put off playing there grey plastic against GD quality armies, its just another way staff silently observe to help.

7:Dan: if you took a soft list to help a new player your ranking would not go down, because as I keep saying the staff would be observing, they see you helping they praise you and if you constantly help you become relied upon as a gamer who can help, but also be competetive when required, you get the best of both worlds

8:Dan: as I said its not up to players to get involved, that is the point in the staff, they step in and instead if being vigilantes as they are want to do (and allot truly believe they are even outside in the real world) you report the problem to the staff who are there to deal with it in a none disruptive manner, perhaps pulling them to one side, having a quiet word, and maybe directing both players to mire suitable opponents
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post #48 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
Fuck me how many times must I repeat myself
You can repeat yourself as many times as you like, it's still tripe.

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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
3: midnight: check kings last post
Last time I checked, you were the minority fending off the arguments of three people and TKE was on my side.

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Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
4: midnight: I never said it was a perfect system, I said IT'S A BUILDING BLOCK, it is up to the staff to observe to gain further information to help in the future to GUIDE PLAYERS.
No, it's up to the players; you can't expect staff to pair you up against people you'll enjoy playing against, it's unreasonable. Just because you have one in your community doesn't mean you can expect it elsewhere.

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5: midnight: 3++ remains I see to be as exaggerated as always, the signs are not always that obvious to new players, even to us older players, that is the point in staff getting to know the gamers to help people.
They are obvious, in your example you said that the guy sets up the terrain in his favour. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the terrain's unbalanced, and it's not hard to ask a third party to set it up for you if you have any doubts.

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post #49 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 09:20 PM
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A few thoughts here.

This guy can't be Stella. He hasn't mentioned any of Stella's pet topics nor has this thread included tirades on the himalaya sized awfulness of GW.

Painting in and of itself shouldn't be elitist. I don't know anyone who prefers the look of a plastic or primer army.

And that excerpt from 3++ sounds disturbingly like blaming the victim. Like the novice player is being mistreated and is at fault for being mistreated. Not everyone who plays like an ass is clearly an ass at first meeting.

At the flgs I used play at, the long term members actively encouraged players to ostracize people who couldn't be civil, and were proactive about warning new players about them. "That guy you're about to play, yeah he's prone to tantrums and throwing figures. And he's none too particular about whose figures he throws."

It takes a village as they say, in this case to maintain a positive gaming atmosphere.

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Could someone please call the police on this guy? I can hear the English Language screaming in pain. This has to be illegal somewhere.
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post #50 of 75 (permalink) Old 04-27-12, 09:37 PM
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This guy can't be Stella. He hasn't mentioned any of Stella's pet topics nor has this thread included tirades on the himalaya sized awfulness of GW.
It's a joke, Kreuger. A joke.

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And that excerpt from 3++ sounds disturbingly like blaming the victim. Like the novice player is being mistreated and is at fault for being mistreated. Not everyone who plays like an ass is clearly an ass at first meeting.
It is blaming the victim - he is the one in the wrong for complaining when he fails to realise the blatantly obvious signs the other guy is giving him that he's in it for the win. A competitive player asking for a game and going against the local baby seal with crappy army list and little rules knowedge is also a victim - he's not enjoying the game because he doesn't want an easy win. It's not always the 'soft' players who are the victims - hardcore dudes can feel it too.

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Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
At the flgs I used play at, the long term members actively encouraged players to ostracize people who couldn't be civil, and were proactive about warning new players about them. "That guy you're about to play, yeah he's prone to tantrums and throwing figures. And he's none too particular about whose figures he throws."
This is still a debate about a new club, so this isn't really an option, as I and TKE have been saying for a page and a half.

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It takes a village as they say, in this case to maintain a positive gaming atmosphere.
I certainly agree with you - it takes two people to play a game of 40k, after all, and if one person doesn't enjoy it the game has been a bit of a failure. Even if you curb stomp somebody, being civil and jocular about it often relieves the tension, I've found, and you can help someone enjoy a game that they've lost as well as won. My best game ever was a loss.

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