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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Default 2500 points Vampire Counts - Brand new to fantasy, please help

Okay, I have been playing 40k for years and kinda mocking fantasy, but I decided to give an army a spin and heres what I came up with, comments and criticism welcome:

Lord

Vampire Lord
Model, Level 3 Wizard, Master of the Black Arts, Forbidden Lore, Lord of the Dead, Blood Drinker, Flayed Hauberk, Cursed Book, Black Periapt.

Hero

Vampire
Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Sword of Battle, Nightshroud, Cadaverous Cuirass

Vampire
Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Sword of Might, Wristbands of Black Gold

Vampire
Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Tomb Blade, Gem of Blood

Core

Skeleton Warriors
20 Warriors (7 frontage), Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, 20 Spears

Skeleton Warriors
20 Warriors (7 frontage), Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, 20 Spears

Skeleton Warriors
20 Warriors (7 frontage), Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, 20 Spears

Skeleton Warriors
20 Warriors (7 frontage), Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, 20 Spears

Special

Grave Guard
23 Grave guard (8 Frontage), Seneshal, Musician, Standard Bearer, 23 Great Weapons, Banner of the Barrows

2500 pts total

So, yeah the idea is that I put a Vampire in three of the four hammerblocks of skeletons, they then advance to combat summoning new skeletons all the way there by repeatedly casting Invocation of Nehek, so if they each get 2 power dice, and role them both independently, I should theoretically get 4 successful roles per turn from the Vampires, and if he uses the power on the skeletons too, about another 5 from the Lord (who uses the extra dice). Alternatively he can be used to regenerate the Grave Guard marching in the exact center of the army between the two skeleton blocks and keep them at full strength. This method should also preserv me from miscasts pretty well.

I can Tailor the lord with stronger offensive or defensive magic depending on the enemy cause he can pick from which Lore to draw. The Vampires themselves will fight in the front rank of the army alongside the command section (hence the frontages should yield 3 ranks inititally, two of which can fight for all of the skeleton units) With how powerful they are, the Vamps should be able to exterminate rank and file fairly well and will only ever fight 3 enemies at maximum which with high Initiative and Strength they should kill quite nicely. The Grave Guard and the lord can then feel free to eliminate the other player’s center and mob up any survivors. They will use the cursed book hopefully when they are fighting the lord's unit or another elite unit.


All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

Last edited by Triangulum; 04-10-09 at 08:36 PM.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 08:59 PM
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I'm almost a complete noob but I can see several holes in your force...

I dont know the Vamp's special rules but unless they have one to allow them to cast the same spell multiple times with the same mage your scrotted.

Secondly your very slow moving (as befits an army of the dead), but that measn your almost certain not to get the charge (you really cant rely on magic to danse you into the charge.. all armies will have enough dispell dice and/or scroll to stop that.. even my ogres could so it !!!) so your giving up the charge against almost every army out there (unless you happen to find an all infantry man/elf/dwarf army).

You seem very offensive light- your skelies are great at taking damage but wont give it back so easily... especially if your getting charged

Worst of all- woe betide you if you ever get charged by units with a strong champion with great weapon and character or just 2 characters- 2 challenges and either your unit's vamp dies or hides at the back... either way its then a guarenteed loss since even your grave guard shouldn't stand up to a stong character by themselves
- losing vamps is unthinkable for your list... its your glass jaw.

I think this is a great list vs gunlines... being able all but ignore the damage they cause you.
It'll be an interesting battle vs another stong magic force, since you'll find rasing more undead hard but his attacks wont be that effective either.
Where you'll really lose out is vs strong combat armies, esp those with strong champions and characters (a decent chaos warrior list would roll straight over you and my ogres wouldnt do so badly either).

At 2000pts+ I would be tempted to throw a unit of 8 Ironguts and 2 characters straight up the centre... the unit costs about 700pts so its not too much of a hastle to spend an extra 15pts per magic resistance level... I give that unit magic resistance 3 and I just cant see how you can hurt it.

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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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If I hit a strong CC Army, I was rather counting on it being at least mostly ineffective at dispelling spells. In the Necromancy Spells rule it says that a wizard can cast a necromancy spell multiple times per turn and even multiple times on the same unit. This means my opponent either gets to try to dispel a total of 11 Invocations of Nevec each of which work on a 3+ or I get about 8D6 worth of new skeletons per turn. This in turn should grind powerful armies down.

I then figured that I could take on 1 elite unit per turn or so with my grave guard. They have decent stats and powerful weapons, meanwhile my Vampire lord is staying alive based on the fact that he seems reasonably strong and tough and should strike first. After that I count on my models to bury the other guy with great weapon weight of numbers all with killing blow. Then I use the Invocations to bring em back up to scratch.

I know the army has a weakness, but from what I understand, a big enough block of soldiers can eventually wear down better ones. The vamps themselves seem pretty strong.

If I hit a unit like the one you mentioned I would use cursed book to bring em down to WS 1 and then hope for the best.

How would this strat work against most armies? I have only ever watched games so I really dont know how they work relative to each other.


All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triangulum View Post
If I hit a strong CC Army, I was rather counting on it being at least mostly ineffective at dispelling spells. ... This in turn should grind powerful armies down.
A Vampire Counts army relies heavily upon its magic, that's for certain. But then, a few of the different armies rely upon their ability to dispel your magic, or end it outright. You'll have to be careful here. Dwarfs can be a pain, as can Lizardmen and High Elves with Drain Magic. Just be careful in deployment, let your movement be your contingency; you want your units to cooperate as much as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triangulum View Post
I could take on 1 elite unit per turn or so with my grave guard. ... my Vampire lord is staying alive based on the fact that he seems reasonably strong and tough and should strike first... I count on my models to bury the other guy with great weapon weight of numbers all with killing blow. Then I use the Invocations to bring em back up to scratch.
Oh boy. Certain Elite Units from armies have no trouble against the Undead. Sword Masters, Dragon Ogres, Black Guard, and the like won't need to worry about your Grave Guard with one on one combat. What you should rely upon these guys to do is to tag-team with your Core Troops to tackle the real elite units. That way, Static Combat Resolution alone will just about ensure your domination in combat (remembering that you'll likely be generating a fair bit of Active Combat Resolution as well)!

A big block can, in theory, wear down better warriors. It's hard to rely on this strategy, though. If you want to keep your big blocks, that's more than fine; you'll just need some contingency. Nasty Elite Units love to chew through units, and can probably do it faster than your vampires can resurrect them. Even if you held them for every turn, you'd see no real gains. Having a unit ready to counter-charge will really tip the combat in your favor.

What you need to do is focus on destroying your opponents with your hordes of Skeletons and Zombies, not inconveniencing them!


As to your list, the 7-wide frontage isn't what you want. You want to create a lot of Static Combat Resolution. The 7-wide frontage is to deliver as many attacks as possible against the standard 5-wide frontage. Your troops just aren't capable to throwing out decent attacks, so in turn should focus on generating the all-important Static Combat Resolution. Deploy 5-wide and keep them that way. You'll get full rank bonus with only 2 less models attacking, which may work out better anyway. You may also want to increase the unit sizes, since 20 seems rather small for Skeletons.

Other than that, I can offer no more insight. I'm not too familiar with VCs, I'm afraid. But I hope I have helped enough to shed some light for you.

"In the eyes of the Elves of Ulthuan there exists no fear, only grim determination.

Until one has witnessed them in combat, one cannot comprehend the power that they possess."
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 11:18 PM
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your general (who I presume is your lord) is wide open to cannon shots and artillary, he has no ward save whatsoever, although I gave my Lord the flayed Hauberk and red fury abilites to allow him to hold his own againt an ogre tyrant. (Albeit with some difficulties) also, necromancers are a much cheaper supporting spellcaster, which is why my 3000 point army has enslited 2, leaving my 2 lesser vampires equipped with some more juicy magic items. skeletons are also quite good at core, but to replace some with crypt ghouls for their poison attacks is a good thing to do, however, your smart enough not to feild Zombies as your starting core choices so you can raise loads later at sheilds or to buy time.

No rare choices either, my army is 3066 points and I have 2 rare choices, 10 black knights 20 grave guard and 4 units of 20 skeletons. as well as 4 heroes and a lord, a unit of blood knights can go a long way, especially when they have frenzy and are equipped with the flag of blood keep, and can even outstrip bretonnia grail knights combatwise (Not just skeptical, it really is true!) I usually have a necromancer under Vahnels danse macabre follow them around to act as a supporting healer, (IoN) really can do wonders for a unit, as can a sheild of Zombies (which is generally what I use necromancers for, as well as carrying a load of dispel scrolls) best thing about necromancers is that they have 2 wounds, and a good leadership, allowing them to effectively take moderate amounts of damage, as well as get raised by other heroes and lords, your entire army effectively has regeneration and pretty much has the "I'll be back" rule from necrons (Not really, but I always end a battle with almost triple the models I started with) Its always good to have two or three necromancers do all the work healing whilst your Vampires can become offensive spellcasters with ANY lore from the warhammer rulebook (Including Mortal Tczeech) allowing your vampires to effectively cast Incredibly high level spells, making them formidable opponents and a real pain towards enemies.

"Trample the weak, and hurdle the dead."
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-11-09, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, I guess I can see why small frontage would be better, I just was thinking since 2 ranks get to fight with spears, it would be an efficient phalanx with the dead back ranks keeping it always more than 2 ranks strong.

What is the typical game of Warhammer played at pts wise, I tried building them to standard 40k games size (1500-2000), and it seemed really small. What are the standard pt ranges.

If I spent pts on blood knights, would it be a good idea to stick a mounted vamp/vamplord in their with them or would I want to keep him in with the main block?


All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-13-09, 01:02 PM
 
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my first post..

id agree with other ppls posts. i play VC and would recommend: (just my thoughts)

- as mentioned, less vampires (they are expensive) and more necromancers. the problem ive found with having caster/combat vampires is that they get beaten down by combat specialists and imo dont cast well enough to compensate for that (at the cost they are). i usually specialise them in one aspect or another ie support caster or combat specialist.

- again, a bit more speed would be useful - dire wolves are good at hunting down war machines, protecting your flanks and march blocking.
- for the infantry maybe change the skellies to 3 units of 25 in case your casting isnt ideal (as undead I always seem to res less then I'd like..)
- also, corpse carts are useful especially with the unholy lodestone. effectively makes your nehek spells summon D6+1
-

"Okay, I guess I can see why small frontage would be better, I just was thinking since 2 ranks get to fight with spears, it would be an efficient phalanx with the dead back ranks keeping it always more than 2 ranks strong."

like the others said, narrower frontage is best cos most core undead dont inflict enough wounds no matter how many you have. its mainly an attrition game using ranks and banner to get points. then your elite units can deal the damage.

"What is the typical game of Warhammer played at pts wise, I tried building them to standard 40k games size (1500-2000), and it seemed really small. What are the standard pt ranges."

depends on who you are playing against i guess. I usually play 2000-3000pts

"If I spent pts on blood knights, would it be a good idea to stick a mounted vamp/vamplord in their with them or would I want to keep him in with the main block?"

i think of blood knights as being like units of heros (when frienzied, 3 attacks each with strength 7 charge). obviously they dont have the same amount of magic gear etc. you could put a vampire in there e.g with blood drinker, so when he causes wounds you res a knight? but personally i find them powerful enough as they are, if supported properly. i always keep my lord (general) in a block of infantry - as blood knights are tough but not invincible, and if they go and you lose your general too - its game over.
hope that helps!
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-13-09, 11:31 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, I am going to tone down the Vamps if I run this list.

Is it a bad idea to min the number of Core choices in an army?

I would also really appreciate it if you could help with the high elves list I posted. I am trying to choose between these two armies and I based a lot of it on what your feedback was on this list.


All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.
Triangulum is offline  
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