Need help from the Hive Mind! - 1750 versus CSM - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-03-12, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Default Need help from the Hive Mind! - 1750 versus CSM

First off, this post is very long as I explain what I plan on doing with the units as well as what I am trying to beat in this specific match. If you don't wish to read it all then the list is supplied early and the jist is that I need to beat 2 helldrakes and possibly a 3rd flier. I need a dedicated disruption unit to take out a quadgun operator and I need some sweet CC units to wipe out troops. Thanks

Alright, so lately I have been playing my DA against a friend of mine with BA allies and I keep getting tabled. I've decided to bust out my Tyranids again and try their luck (I was always better with my Tyranids anyway). Last time we played I tabled him with my nids but that was before the new Chaos codex. Now my biggest problem against his lists are his two helldrakes and so I need help designing a list that will be able to take out his 2 fliers and possibly a third flier (either a daemon prince, a guard vendetta, or a necron flier). I have not played against Necrons in 6th so I am unfamiliar with their power. Regardless, this is what I have so far.

HQ
------
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy

Now, I have only used the flying tyrant once before and it got shot down fast by a Tau gunline. I hate sinking so many points into one unit, let alone 2 and I almost always play a Tyranid Prime as my HQ. So what are everyone's thoughts on running 2 flying tyrants? I feel it may be necessary to run them in pairs to create a much larger threat and a variety of targets. This is my thoughts on most MCs in general. I would start them out in Gliding mode. Then on turn 2, switch to swooping.

Troops
---------
Termagaunts (15) - 75
Termagaunts (15) - 75
Tervigon - 185 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst - trade out dominion for either biomancy or telepathy?
Tervigon - 185 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst - trade out dominion for either biomancy or telepathy?


Elites
--------
Hive Guard (3) - 150
Hive Guard (3) - 150


That adds up to 1380. Now usually I run a squad of genestealers or 2 with a broodlord, 2 trygons, zoanthropes, or sometimes Biovores. However, I feel adding in a single trygon means I have too few units on the board. Additionally, I like fielding 2 trygons as I feel 1 dies too fast but having 2 on the board plus all the other threats usually means I get both to combat and do some major damage. I am tempted to do 2 10 man squads of genestealers that infiltrate to get his back units. Though I hate they can no longer charge turn 1. Zoanthropes I do not feel the need for this game. I have considered ymgarl stealers to get his back units, especially as they can still assault the turn they come in. I'm not married to the tervigons but for the last 2 years I have ran almost always 2x tervigons, 2 trygons, genestealers, and a prime and have done really well. So I have a hard time not imagining them in the list.

Basically until his helldrakes come on his longest range gun is a quadgun from a defense line. I need that gun gone or the units inside of it gone. That is where the ymgarl stealers come on. Or possibly the doom? The rest of his army almost always consists of cultists (near the line or operating the quadgun), a thousand sons squad, an HQ with MoT, a khorne marked CSM squad, a havoc squad, and rhinos for all with meltaguns on everything that can take one. Additionally, he doesn't use bolters. Which gives me a great edge as his threat range is vastly reduced to 12 inches (besides the T-sons).

The idea is to use Hive Guard and Tyrants to take out the rhinos as best I can on turn 1. This will leave his army footslogging. I will most likely have to weather the quadgun for at least a turn or 2, hopefully not longer - its priority #2. Then the flyrants go to swooping mode and hunt those helldrakes or those tasty marines. Tervigons and Termagaunts go for objectives and smash through infantry. Hive Guard after the rhinos are toast and they move forward will focus on the units in the defense line (if they are still around), the quad gun, or just shoot at marines. T-Sons will also be a priority over most other units as they have the furthest threat range. With the Havoc rhino also needing to be popped first as they are armed with 4xmelta and a combi-melta which could really hurt a tervigon.

All of this could change depending on if he allies with necrons. I am not too worried about guard allied.

If my third elite section does not get filled with a disruption unit then I will take 3 squads of 2 hive guard

I am on edge about the flying tyrants but I see no other way to take out his possible 3 fliers.

Please let me know what you all think and again, sorry for the lengthy post. Just wanted to be very detailed.

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-03-12, 09:09 PM
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Helldrakes will be tought to take out unitl your tyrants get back armour shots. Trust me there. One cron flier isn't a threat. 10 cron fliers are threat. However, 1 vendetta is a threat. Kill that one first.

For the FMC flyrants. The build is good - optimal actually - but usage is wrong. Swoop them turn one. Always. Swoop. Swoop every turn unless you get into assault. If you stop swooping a smart opponent - actually most opponents will capitalize and kill it. SWOOP! They are arguably the best way to build our best HQ choice in 6th, so good job there.

For your tervigons - you cannot switch out just one power. It is all or nothing. Just buy catalyst and keep it unless you really want biomancy - but catalyst is much better and more reliable IMO. I'd take adrenal glands for rerolls vs marines.

I perfer hive guard in groups of 2. Actually all elites. Lets you pick a new target should you get lucky on the first. Oh - see you already put that.

What to do with the last 370 points:
Maybe a squad of ymgarls. Then you could get a harpy or shrikes. Harpies aren't great but it would add another FMC to deal with in this already saturated market.
Drop a squad of gants to 10 and get 2 trygons with toxin sacs. Footslog then if you want.
Get 2 dakkafexxes or a tfex and a harpy. Maybe add in some biovores to make your list real shooty.

Honestly - solid list using our best units. Not too much to critique. I'd suggest using one of the point fillers above.

My tactics articles, if you need help making a new army, or beating one:

High Elves - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=112437

Tyranids - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=118886

New Warriors of Chaos - https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...=1#post1336092


I have a new theory in life - for everything - from ethics to legal cases - it is called pre-emptive self defense.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-03-12, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineEdge View Post
Helldrakes will be tought to take out unitl your tyrants get back armour shots. Trust me there. One cron flier isn't a threat. 10 cron fliers are threat. However, 1 vendetta is a threat. Kill that one first.

For the FMC flyrants. The build is good - optimal actually - but usage is wrong. Swoop them turn one. Always. Swoop. Swoop every turn unless you get into assault. If you stop swooping a smart opponent - actually most opponents will capitalize and kill it. SWOOP! They are arguably the best way to build our best HQ choice in 6th, so good job there.

For your tervigons - you cannot switch out just one power. It is all or nothing. Just buy catalyst and keep it unless you really want biomancy - but catalyst is much better and more reliable IMO. I'd take adrenal glands for rerolls vs marines.

I perfer hive guard in groups of 2. Actually all elites. Lets you pick a new target should you get lucky on the first. Oh - see you already put that.

What to do with the last 370 points:
Maybe a squad of ymgarls. Then you could get a harpy or shrikes. Harpies aren't great but it would add another FMC to deal with in this already saturated market.
Drop a squad of gants to 10 and get 2 trygons with toxin sacs. Footslog then if you want.
Get 2 dakkafexxes or a tfex and a harpy. Maybe add in some biovores to make your list real shooty.

Honestly - solid list using our best units. Not too much to critique. I'd suggest using one of the point fillers above.
Can I swoop turn 1? I was under the impression that if I was swooping turn 1 I had to start in reserves. If that is not the case then I will most definitely start on the board and swooping.

I've thought about the harpy but decided since the heavy-venom cannon will not be able to hit the flyers then I would rather just pack 3 more hive guard.

I honestly love dakkafexxes and was considering rocking a squad of them. Would you suggest 2 different squads or one squad with two?

I may go with the two trygons with toxin sacs. The worry there is still that I have almost no units on the board. I'm not used to that but if it is a powerful build in 6th then maybe it is worth a shot.

I was considering as a disruption unit to his his backfield, a squad of devilgaunts in a pod. Possibly 15 to 20. That should be able to tear up what ever is manning his quadgun which really allows my Tyranids to have the better range in shooting. Which is a scary and odd concept.

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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 01:42 PM
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Give your opponent the first turn if you win the ability to deploy first or second. Having his fliers come on first will allow you to position your FMC's better to gain access to the rear armour of their helldrakes. Deepstrike them in swoop mode when they enter the battlefield right behind the enemy fliers and just ruin them. From personal experience, just recently ive had my flyrant gun down two heldrakes and a necron flier all in the same game just by gaining turn two and the guy im playing make some poor decisions in moving his own fliers.

Once you are behind the fliers you force your opponent to either hover, and take fire from everything on the board, or out run your FMC's giving them more time to shoot the rear of the armour.

As for the rest of the list, personally I'd recommend taking doom and a trygon trio and bringing them in front of the gun line. Its sounds like suicide, but hopefully with doom being in such close proximity your opponent will be forced to divide his fire and pick his poison. Does he shoot doom? Or, does he shoot the Trygons? He he doesn't kill one of the three when his turn comes around he's going to get pasted.

Another idea is to take devilgaunts (devourer wielding beasts). If he is using cultists as the quad gun operator, then drop pod 15 of the little devils in rip infront of them and fire your 75 shots to wipe out the squad. Hell if you can make up the points, take this brood with/instead of a trygon. Your opponent will most likely be on the boards edge anyway, let him try and pass a leadership test on a double 1!

Even though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I'm there waiting... and your not coming out alive!
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igni Ferroque View Post
Give your opponent the first turn if you win the ability to deploy first or second. Having his fliers come on first will allow you to position your FMC's better to gain access to the rear armour of their helldrakes. Deepstrike them in swoop mode when they enter the battlefield right behind the enemy fliers and just ruin them. From personal experience, just recently ive had my flyrant gun down two heldrakes and a necron flier all in the same game just by gaining turn two and the guy im playing make some poor decisions in moving his own fliers.

Once you are behind the fliers you force your opponent to either hover, and take fire from everything on the board, or out run your FMC's giving them more time to shoot the rear of the armour.

As for the rest of the list, personally I'd recommend taking doom and a trygon trio and bringing them in front of the gun line. Its sounds like suicide, but hopefully with doom being in such close proximity your opponent will be forced to divide his fire and pick his poison. Does he shoot doom? Or, does he shoot the Trygons? He he doesn't kill one of the three when his turn comes around he's going to get pasted.

Another idea is to take devilgaunts (devourer wielding beasts). If he is using cultists as the quad gun operator, then drop pod 15 of the little devils in rip infront of them and fire your 75 shots to wipe out the squad. Hell if you can make up the points, take this brood with/instead of a trygon. Your opponent will most likely be on the boards edge anyway, let him try and pass a leadership test on a double 1!
Deepstriking the tyrants.... seems ballsy but it might just work. I like it.

The doom and trygon shenanigans might work but it could also just fail horribly. I'll have to think about that one.

I had just mentioned taking devilgaunts and honestly I'm thinking that may be my best option for taking out his rear troops. In a squad of 15 they only get 45 shots though, not 75.

Thanks. More to think about.

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockeF View Post
Deepstriking the tyrants.... seems ballsy but it might just work. I like it.

The doom and trygon shenanigans might work but it could also just fail horribly. I'll have to think about that one.

I had just mentioned taking devilgaunts and honestly I'm thinking that may be my best option for taking out his rear troops. In a squad of 15 they only get 45 shots though, not 75.

Thanks. More to think about.

Yeh thats a maths fail on my part... but you get the picture!

Even though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I'm there waiting... and your not coming out alive!
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 06:08 PM
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i don't deepstrike mine because i like having them as a gun magnet from turn 1. however, i can see as to how that would be useful.

HQ
------
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy

excellent choice

Troops
---------
Termagaunts (15) - 75
Termagaunts (15) - 75
i wouldn't bother with more than 10.
Tervigon - 185 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst - trade out dominion for either biomancy or telepathy?
Tervigon - 185 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst - trade out dominion for either biomancy or telepathy?
drop the extra power and grab adrenal glands. one turn of rerolling all wounds on marines is worth it. i also suggest telepathy. psychic shrike can be very useful.


Elites
--------
Hive Guard (3) - 150
Hive Guard (3) - 150

to expand this:

trygons (solid and easy to use),

ymargls (place right, they can be game changing),

snot pods/devilguants (pretty plug and play, but i would take ymargls over them),

raveners (amazing, absolutely amazing. also, they won't draw fire if you build your list right),

biovores ( i often run two squads of two and they tear through infantry),

harpies ( more flyers means less shots at other things and they are not bad. used to be a hater, but i am starting to see the use of them),

shrikes with two boneswords, ts, ag (rip through most deathstar units.)

you have a solid start but you will need to be careful in building up.

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 06:34 PM
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I'd have to disagree only with dropping Catalyst. Any player worth their salt will obliterate Tervigons ASAP. With only a 3+ save to cover them a lot of stuff can deny those saves. Having FNP on your tervigons will make them much more survivable. For example the Heldrake itself can use its flamer to remove a wound while also being about to vector strike away 1+d3 wounds if they specifically target your Tervigons. Once these troops choices are gone you're going to have very little left to hold objectives to win games.

I agree with Loki's other recommendations. They're all spot on!

Even though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I'm there waiting... and your not coming out alive!
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the input.

What about this?

HQ
------
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy


Troops
---------
Termagaunts (10) - 50
Termagaunts (10) - 50
Tervigon - 195 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, adrenal
Tervigon - 195 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, adrenal


Elites
--------
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Ygarml Stealers (5) - 115


Heavy
-------
Carnifex Brood (2) - 380 dual twin-linked devourers

This is 1705, now I could go over by 5 points (won't be a big deal, its a friendly match), and give the carnifex brood regen. If I alternate who is in front then when they take a wound I just alternate the brood so the back fex can regen? Or I could add a hive guard? Or I could take hive commander?

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-04-12, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockeF View Post
Thanks for all the input.

What about this?

HQ
------
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy
Flyrant - 260 wings, 2x brain-leech devourers - roll on Biomancy


Troops
---------
Termagaunts (10) - 50
Termagaunts (10) - 50
Tervigon - 195 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, adrenal
Tervigon - 195 Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, adrenal


Elites
--------
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Ygarml Stealers (5) - 115


Heavy
-------
Carnifex Brood (2) - 380 dual twin-linked devourers

This is 1705, now I could go over by 5 points (won't be a big deal, its a friendly match), and give the carnifex brood regen. If I alternate who is in front then when they take a wound I just alternate the brood so the back fex can regen? Or I could add a hive guard? Or I could take hive commander?
i am a little hesitant about carnifexs. for 20 more points, you could have two trygons, 4 extra wounds, fleet, and honestly a much better model choice. it could be that i know how good and cheap those fexes used to be, but i can't stomach them any more.

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