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post #41 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-10, 05:02 AM
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Katie,
After a recent set of battles I'm going to advocate keeping Sword on the Librarian. In both games last weekend the Lib and his unit ended up in CC with some Ork walkers and lacked the ability to hurt them (I took Shield and Lance).
Either can be considered situational but overall, this has been my experience and Sword was more effective.
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post #42 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-10, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord Pestilice View Post
Katie,
After a recent set of battles I'm going to advocate keeping Sword on the Librarian. In both games last weekend the Lib and his unit ended up in CC with some Ork walkers and lacked the ability to hurt them (I took Shield and Lance).
Either can be considered situational but overall, this has been my experience and Sword was more effective.
So sword is more effective because your opponent may bring walkers and you may end up in combat to them because you may fail to kill them with melta/lack of lance.

Compared to lance that you will always use because blood angels like to get close to their foe.

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post #43 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-10, 05:27 PM
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Sword is an excellent choice on the libby. Everyone should either be using sword libbys or mephiston.
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post #44 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-10, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kuolema View Post
Yeah much better to throw the preds forward while everything else hangs back.
Yes, because holding back our fire power leads to winning games, according to you. The preds have to be constantly on the move, otherwise any enterprising unit close enough will auto hit it in CC. Plus, twin assault cannons into side armor? who wouldn't take that chance. Oh I forgot, you're the pro here. Sorry, let's hold ALL the fire power back. Don't shoot the enemy, were far too concerned with keeping 20+ jump infantry marines from being seen.



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Out flanking CC scouts. . . . . . . .
I see nothing wrong with outflanking CC scouts, especially if they get FC, oh my Rifleman dread in combat with cc scouts forever and a day.



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If your taking a raider or raven you are better off with TH/SS termies than DC.
Depends on how many points left over. Typically Termies run you 210 pts, 3 claws and 2 hammers, you can get DC just as effective in CC for about 180 pts.


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You lost me when you mentioned land raiders and deep striking in the same sentence.
LoL, were you not aware? BA LR's and LR variants can DS. Unless ofcourse you're not reading the same BA codex I am.



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If only marines had access to some short ranged S8 AP1 gun with the melta rule. . .

Btw when your dumb enough to shoot ACV14 with an auto/las pred let me know ok?
Right, as you stated SHORT RANGED. Because the meltas in Katie's list get to shoot at armor from turn 1 right? I mean, are you also assuming that whoever she's playing is a complete fool to let meltas get that close? I mean, you must be to assume that all her meltas, are always going to be in range, all the time, without ever once coming to harm. So what to do against armor from turns 1-3, because typically it takes 3 turns the longest to get into melta range. Should we follow your advise and hold all the fire power back?

LoL and why wouldn't you fire lascannons at an LR at all? If you're given no other targets, and it fits your target priorty, PLUS all those short ranged meltas, just happened to be out of range. You must have somehow forgotten those S8 AP1 guns are short ranged, unless you count 48" as short ranged. You'll need to send that memo to lascannon users everwhere, apparantely it's the worst idea ever to fire lascannons at armor.

Included, didn't you advise Katie to put those meltas in jump pack assault squads vs the mounted assault squads? Thereby giving the meltas an even shorter effective range.

Let me just look here...

Mounted assault squad gets 12" vehicle movement + 2" diembark + melta range

Jump pack assault squads gets 12" movement + melta range. Not to forget to mention that the assult squads are hiding behing the vehicles. Meaning those meltas are still too far out.

Contrary to popular opinion, that extra 2", means the difference between the extra penetration die and not.

Plus, you're still avoiding the topic of supression that you so desperately clung on. Explain again, how does the autocannon beat the lascannon in terms of supression? The auto/las pred combines the best of both worlds. Autocans for light-med armor, lascans for everything else while still maintaining a alot of shots. It's still better to have a vehicle mutli-purpose enough to hit all armor ranges, especially if your going for supression. Here I thought, you knew competitive more than I did. Furthermore, the best army to play supression against is Eldar, since Eldar have all those AV 12 vehicles, with those wave serpents with their pesky shields, turn anything above S8 as S8, but S7, is still worse than S8. Sooo is glancing on a 5+ still better than Glaning on a 4+ apparantly according to you.

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Because I'm totally the guy saying I beat tournament winners and are friends with ETC players. . . .
As opposed to the person who knows so much better than others, strokes his ego by degrading others....


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If only jump pack marines could fly over units or counter charge people who charge our dreads.
I remember saying something about vanguard and outflanking CC scouts.... Plus, arent all of katies 20+ jump marines huddling around 2 priests, who themselves are huddling behind several vehicles, that are all equipped with short ranged weapons... as you said, she's piggy backing off teh razorbacks.


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Hm FC/FnP, not like katie has 2 priests to cover her 20 jump packers. . .
The 6" coverage is not as large as you'd like to imagine. At least not at all when your measuring it straight from the infantry model itself, as opposed to measuring it, oh I don't know, say from the hull of a vehicle, like a rhino chassis or heck a LR.

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post #45 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-10, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Angelofblades View Post
Yes, because holding back our fire power leads to winning games, according to you. The preds have to be constantly on the move, otherwise any enterprising unit close enough will auto hit it in CC. Plus, twin assault cannons into side armor? who wouldn't take that chance. Oh I forgot, you're the pro here. Sorry, let's hold ALL the fire power back. Don't shoot the enemy, were far too concerned with keeping 20+ jump infantry marines from being seen..
What are you actually talking about here? In make believe land, any senario is possible... The arguement between you and Kuolema has now gone into Calvinball land... You two should just start making "your mamma" jokes instead...


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I see nothing wrong with outflanking CC scouts, especially if they get FC, oh my Rifleman dread in combat with cc scouts forever and a day.
Yeah, but my space dragon would never let that happen cause it has the firestealth USR.... While it's trune, Rifleman dreads can be tied up..... But your assumption is that you could always make this happen... which is a stupid argument and only makes you look like a tool.

Quote:
Right, as you stated SHORT RANGED. Because the meltas in Katie's list get to shoot at armor from turn 1 right? I mean, are you also assuming that whoever she's playing is a complete fool to let meltas get that close? I mean, you must be to assume that all her meltas, are always going to be in range, all the time, without ever once coming to harm. So what to do against armor from turns 1-3, because typically it takes 3 turns the longest to get into melta range. Should we follow your advise and hold all the fire power back?
So only stupid players let melta get close... Yeah... that's why we see so much melta out there... did it ever occur to you that sometimes one is unable to stop getting hit with melta...


Quote:
LoL and why wouldn't you fire lascannons at an LR at all? If you're given no other targets, and it fits your target priorty, PLUS all those short ranged meltas, just happened to be out of range. You must have somehow forgotten those S8 AP1 guns are short ranged, unless you count 48" as short ranged. You'll need to send that memo to lascannon users everwhere, apparantely it's the worst idea ever to fire lascannons at armor.
I don't think that's the point... The point that Kirby and others have tried to make is that you can take different tools for different jobs. In order to be effective, one's army does not need to be able to drop a Land Raider from 48" away... What is important is that you KNOW about the need and you build your list to include tools for handling the appearance of said land raider. There is no magic formula for a perfect list (though my footdar come real close... and my firewarrior spam is totally 1337)

Quote:
Included, didn't you advise Katie to put those meltas in jump pack assault squads vs the mounted assault squads? Thereby giving the meltas an even shorter effective range.
Let me just look here...
Mounted assault squad gets 12" vehicle movement + 2" diembark + melta range
Jump pack assault squads gets 12" movement + melta range. Not to forget to mention that the assult squads are hiding behing the vehicles. Meaning those meltas are still too far out.
Contrary to popular opinion, that extra 2", means the difference between the extra penetration die and not.
While true, this is a stupid argument for saying that melta guns in jumpers are no good... Guess what, YOUR WAY IS NOT THE ONLY WAY... and having seen the other gems you've posted to this forums, you're not that clever a list maker....

Quote:
Plus, you're still avoiding the topic of supression that you so desperately clung on. Explain again, how does the autocannon beat the lascannon in terms of supression? The auto/las pred combines the best of both worlds. Autocans for light-med armor, lascans for everything else while still maintaining a alot of shots. It's still better to have a vehicle mutli-purpose enough to hit all armor ranges, especially if your going for supression. Here I thought, you knew competitive more than I did.
Please re-read the article Kriby wrote... it's really good and even though he's an aussie, I can totally understand him... Hell I wanna buy him a Fosters!

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Furthermore, the best army to play supression against is Eldar, since Eldar have all those AV 12 vehicles, with those wave serpents with their pesky shields, turn anything above S8 as S8, but S7, is still worse than S8. Sooo is glancing on a 5+ still better than Glaning on a 4+ apparantly according to you.
Newsflash, you can take suppression tactics to all armies... And if you'd take a closer look, I don't think anyone is saying that 5 is less than 4... you're just being a douche (remember that earlier post about how you come off to people... guess what, making dumb arguments like these really contribute)

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As opposed to the person who knows so much better than others, strokes his ego by degrading others....
These little digs are really what keep me reading this thread...


Quote:
The 6" coverage is not as large as you'd like to imagine. At least not at all when your measuring it straight from the infantry model itself, as opposed to measuring it, oh I don't know, say from the hull of a vehicle, like a rhino chassis or heck a LR.
Well, 6" away from a rhino or 6" away from a dude is still 6" - and making some compensation for the difference between the footprint of either would really not be game altering.

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Last edited by CLT40k; 12-02-10 at 06:16 PM.
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post #46 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-10, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Angelofblades View Post
Yes, because holding back our fire power leads to winning games, according to you. The preds have to be constantly on the move, otherwise any enterprising unit close enough will auto hit it in CC. Plus, twin assault cannons into side armor? who wouldn't take that chance. Oh I forgot, you're the pro here. Sorry, let's hold ALL the fire power back. Don't shoot the enemy, were far too concerned with keeping 20+ jump infantry marines from being seen.
Did I say that? No I did not.
I said you don't have to use your scout move just because you have it, you can start your preds back with your razors to screen your jumpers and move everything forward at the same time.


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I see nothing wrong with outflanking CC scouts, especially if they get FC, oh my Rifleman dread in combat with cc scouts forever and a day.
They will only get FC 1 game out of 6 which is not exactly reliable, basing plans around things that might not even happen is not the smartest move.

So I'm going to deploy my dreads within 12'' of the board edge for the scouts to charge by out flanking?


Quote:
Depends on how many points left over. Typically Termies run you 210 pts, 3 claws and 2 hammers, you can get DC just as effective in CC for about 180 pts.
Maybe clt40k is right, I would be better off calling your mother fat than trying to explain anything to you. . . .



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LoL, were you not aware? BA LR's and LR variants can DS. Unless ofcourse you're not reading the same BA codex I am.
Yes they can deep strike but why on earth would you deep strike a land raider, they have a huge foot print and scatter 2D6".


Quote:
Right, as you stated SHORT RANGED. Because the meltas in Katie's list get to shoot at armor from turn 1 right? I mean, are you also assuming that whoever she's playing is a complete fool to let meltas get that close? I mean, you must be to assume that all her meltas, are always going to be in range, all the time, without ever once coming to harm. So what to do against armor from turns 1-3, because typically it takes 3 turns the longest to get into melta range. Should we follow your advise and hold all the fire power back?
If only we had some way to suppress enemy fire power to help our meltas get closer . . . .

Blah why bother not like your going to listen so

Yo mama's so stupid it took her 2 hours to watch 60 Minutes


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LoL and why wouldn't you fire lascannons at an LR at all? If you're given no other targets, and it fits your target priorty, PLUS all those short ranged meltas, just happened to be out of range. You must have somehow forgotten those S8 AP1 guns are short ranged, unless you count 48" as short ranged. You'll need to send that memo to lascannon users everwhere, apparantely it's the worst idea ever to fire lascannons at armor.
So in this made up example of yours there is nothing but land raiders on the field and all your melta guns are out of range. . . right.
Come back when you have an example that happens in more than once in 100'000 games.

Quote:
Included, didn't you advise Katie to put those meltas in jump pack assault squads vs the mounted assault squads? Thereby giving the meltas an even shorter effective range.

Let me just look here...

Mounted assault squad gets 12" vehicle movement + 2" diembark + melta range

Jump pack assault squads gets 12" movement + melta range. Not to forget to mention that the assult squads are hiding behing the vehicles. Meaning those meltas are still too far out.

Contrary to popular opinion, that extra 2", means the difference between the extra penetration die and not.
Exposing our main scoring units to enemy fire to deal with a tank just because they have 2'' over the jumpers, genius!



Quote:
Plus, you're still avoiding the topic of supression that you so desperately clung on. Explain again, how does the autocannon beat the lascannon in terms of supression? The auto/las pred combines the best of both worlds. Autocans for light-med armor, lascans for everything else while still maintaining a alot of shots. It's still better to have a vehicle mutli-purpose enough to hit all armor ranges, especially if your going for supression. Here I thought, you knew competitive more than I did. Furthermore, the best army to play supression against is Eldar, since Eldar have all those AV 12 vehicles, with those wave serpents with their pesky shields, turn anything above S8 as S8, but S7, is still worse than S8. Sooo is glancing on a 5+ still better than Glaning on a 4+ apparantly according to you.
If only some pink Nintendo character came and posted the maths for you or even wrote a couple of articles about suppression.


Quote:
As opposed to the person who knows so much better than others, strokes his ego by degrading others....
So I'm stroking my own ego by degrading others. . . . guess I need another yo momma joke

Yo Mama's so dumb she stole a free sample


Quote:
I remember saying something about vanguard and outflanking CC scouts.... Plus, arent all of katies 20+ jump marines huddling around 2 priests, who themselves are huddling behind several vehicles, that are all equipped with short ranged weapons... as you said, she's piggy backing off teh razorbacks.
Well I remember you talking crap.


Quote:
The 6" coverage is not as large as you'd like to imagine. At least not at all when your measuring it straight from the infantry model itself, as opposed to measuring it, oh I don't know, say from the hull of a vehicle, like a rhino chassis or heck a LR.
Wait! A vehicles is . . . bigger? than an infantry models O=! Fuck man that is like brilliant! No one could of figured that out themselves!!!

6'' radius and a base being about 1'' gives us a 13'' diameter circle from each priest and we have two of them. So 2 circles and 20 jumpers means we only need to fit 10 men inside each 13'' circle at the start since our priests are in squads so not that fussed by shooting. Then we will be bunching up when we get to CC anyway.

Wait no that is actually constructive . . . . I'm suppose to be stroking my own ego by down grading others

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Last edited by Kuolema; 12-02-10 at 07:41 PM.
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post #47 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-10, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Kuolema View Post
So sword is more effective because your opponent may bring walkers and you may end up in combat to them because you may fail to kill them with melta/lack of lance.

Compared to lance that you will always use because blood angels like to get close to their foe.
Or maybe I used lance on the Ork Dred next to the group of walkers. And maybe Lance damaged/destroyed the dread and my opponent saw the Librarian and his squad as a threat so he threw his 3 killa kans into CC with the Lib and his boys.
And maybe since you were not there you should shut your mouth and quit being overly critical of situations where you were not present and have no direct knowledge of. That is part of your problem. You automatically insult anyone you disagree with and talk down to them by assuming you have superior knowledge of everything.
As I said, either power can be situationally useful. Sword is get in CC but if you cannot get into CC (for whatever reason), it does you no good. Lance is good at doing serious damage at short to mid range but does nothing to help you in CC where a MC or walker decides to get up close and personal. A STR 4 Force Weapon cannot open up an armored target like a dred and isn't always reliable for wounding a huge monster.

Either way, I think this thread is well past the point of being helpful to Katie as it has degenerated into several people insulting each other and offering little to no useful critiques to her list.
I respectfully request a Moderator close this so the level of stupidity can die down.

Last edited by Lord Pestilice; 12-03-10 at 04:13 AM.
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post #48 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-10, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord Pestilice View Post
Or maybe I used lance on the Ork Dred next to the group of walkers. And maybe Lance damaged/destroyed the dread and my opponent saw the Librarian and his squad as a threat so he threw his 3 killa kans into CC with the Lib and his boys.
So your ditching shield for sword? lol


Quote:
And maybe since you were not there you should shut your mouth and quit being overly critical of situations where you were not present and have no direct knowledge of.
Did I say it was a stupid idea? No I said it will not happen very often and lance and shield will be useful in a greater percentage of games.


Quote:
That is part of your problem. You automatically insult anyone you disagree with and talk down to them by assuming you have superior knowledge of everything.
No I only insult people who I can get an interesting reaction out of =P


Quote:
As I said, either power can be situationally useful. Sword is get in CC but if you cannot get into CC (for whatever reason), it does you no good. Lance is good at doing serious damage at short to mid range but does nothing to help you in CC where a MC or walker decides to get up close and personal. A STR 4 Force Weapon cannot open up an armored target like a dred and isn't always reliable for wounding a huge monster.
Your army can kill dreads and stuff but it can't hit multiple tanks at once to discourage them castling up.

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post #49 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-10, 06:47 AM
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So I don't know anything about Blood Angels really, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in this post anymore. I actually just feel bad for Katie because she posted a list to get help and suggestions and instead the post has turned into an idiot fight between two people who think they are right and won't listen to anything else. Why don't we try to get back to the original intent of the post and help Katie with her vision instead of bickering needlessly like children.

Peace guys oh, and gals
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post #50 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-05-10, 12:58 AM
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This is my favorite part:

Quote:
2 pts more for a DC than an assault marine
Quote:
Taking DC outside a transport is the worst idea ever
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If you're taking Rhino's for DC, then you're doing something wrong, you don't get to charge out of a Rhino and DC need the charge. A LR or Storm Raven are in order. It's the only logical choice.
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Typically Termies run you 210 pts, 3 claws and 2 hammers, you can get DC just as effective lol, no in CC for about 180 pts
Quote:
LoL, were you not aware? BA LR's and LR variants can DS.
In summation;
Get rid of a 175 point scoring unit with a fast tank and replace with a 440+ points unit and immediately deepstrike an XBOX sized tank into the nearest mishap available. FUCK YEAH!
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