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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-09-10, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cheese meister View Post
i find vindis really usefull it is more phsycholgical than anything it diverts so muchfire power away frm other more important things such as your iron clads or your sterngaurd and if it does shoot bonus saying that my main opponent is a meganob ork army so s10 ap2 is a scary thing 4 him
Totally agreeing on this. It might not kill that much, but it makes my oppenent move around for the sake of 4+ cover. This makes my oppenent slower, which gives me more time for getting everything into position and shooting the shit out of the oppenent. At the same time it draws attention away from other things.

I see the vindicator getting very killy the moment the oppenent has either disembarked or lost his transport and units ends up out in the open. And then bang!

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-09-10, 10:36 PM
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I dont find it that killy at all.

Usually you get 5-6 hits resulting in 5-6 wounds. As you said the enemy will be in cover at this point meaning he will save half of those wounds

Now shooting Deepstriking termies and the like thats where it pays of. But at I said earlier the games where it is able to do this are rare in between.

just my 2 cents.

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-09-10, 10:58 PM
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meh i find them usefull as i say but that is a megga nob army with 3 battlewaggons so by the time i have killed the tanks he is slogging forward with little in hte way 2 stop them
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-09-10, 10:59 PM
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yes I can see how they can be usefull in a senario like that hehe.

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-10-10, 01:06 PM
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@ mercer -> You are kind of repeating what the other guys already said. But you bring some stuff up I haven't heard before.
I can see the idea in dropping 2 dreads on the first turn, but then I need 3 drop pods total, and that does alot to the army build. I can see why you think its competative, but not in this list.

But lets get to the interesting thing you wrote. Running vindicators and predators in pairs. Why if I may ask?
That's true you do need 3 drop pods so you get the most in, but never take a solo because the dreadnought will come in and just get blown up next turn. I would drop it.

Taking takes in pairs gives unit redundancy, multiple targets and another word which has just gone straight out my head . If you lose a tank it doesn't matter so much because you've got another, also taking tanks in pairs helps against target priority. If you take a single long range predator and a short range vindicator I can take out the predator first and your long range anti tank is gone and the vindicator I can buy myself some time because it's short range, I can also move my meltas up to it and when you move up you're putting yourself in my melta range for me, thanks

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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-10-10, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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I see you points as standart cookie cutter arguments, one is good, so two is twice as good and I was hoping for more. I don't want to cookie cut, I want a flexible and mixed list, thats why I don't simply copy the good choices. I don't copy anything in this list as you see;)

By mixing the fire power a little around I give the oppenent alot to think about, by making alot of different target valid to shoot at. Maybe the vindicator only has a shooting range of 24" and a move of 6", I don't see it as short range, as something that can be ignored for a turn or two, while you shot the long range weapons. Besides that I think the predator and the vindicator has two totally different roles on the battlefield.

My predator has the role as transport kill and fire platform destroyer. 4 relativelly high str shots while hopefully remove a car each turn.
The vindicator is the to scare my oppenent, do to its high str and low AP. It will destroy everything basically It can shoot anything from terminators, to termagaunts or landraiders.

And I dont think I need two of any of them

But thanks from the ideas, but next time some extra arguments might help us to understand each other a little faster :O

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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-11-10, 01:04 PM
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Not waht you call "cookie" cutting at all. It's tactics mate. What happens when that vindicator is blown up? It's gone, that's it. but if you have two it doesn't matter, you've got another. A smart player will have the right tools and multiple tools for the job ;)

Your vindicator and predator are different roles. One is long range anti tank the other is short range anti tank and anti troop. But my point remains, if I take out that predator you have no long range anti tank and my worries for my armour are partly over, I can take it easy. See target priority is half the battle, if you know what units to cripple first your army can survive better and when taking multiple units it makes that job harder.

That's why you have two of them ;) smart player takes multiple units for redundancy, average players take singles and hope they make it through-out the game. And I wouldn't say arguements either, and extra text will take time to read longer making things slower, yes?

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-11-10, 04:14 PM
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Not waht you call "cookie" cutting at all. It's tactics mate. What happens when that vindicator is blown up? It's gone, that's it. but if you have two it doesn't matter, you've got another. A smart player will have the right tools and multiple tools for the job ;)

Your vindicator and predator are different roles. One is long range anti tank the other is short range anti tank and anti troop. But my point remains, if I take out that predator you have no long range anti tank and my worries for my armour are partly over, I can take it easy. See target priority is half the battle, if you know what units to cripple first your army can survive better and when taking multiple units it makes that job harder.

That's why you have two of them ;) smart player takes multiple units for redundancy, average players take singles and hope they make it through-out the game. And I wouldn't say arguements either, and extra text will take time to read longer making things slower, yes?
I am sorry but I can't agree with anything you have just said.

First paragraph: If I read this right "take more than one in case you lose one"(?). Well in that case lets take double everything in case we lose one! Double land raiders; Double terminator squads, etc. I am sorry but that is not an arguement at all.

Second paragraph: Well if you can take out a pred at long range and then a vindi later, surely you can take out a vindi at long range and the other later? or are you suggesting he doubles up only on the preds?

Third paragraph: Did you read that everyone? If you don't have duplicated units you are not smart, in fact you are average! Redundancy is not purely about taking double of everything, it is also about having DIFFERENT units that can perform the same task. That is redundancy. e.g. Attack bikes with MM and Speeder with MM. Redundancy also has to be balanced with versatility. e.g. Land speeder with MM and HF; move 12" and fire the weapon that best suits your current target. This land speeder adds redundancy to the attack bikes, but is still versatile as it can take on other hordes effectively.


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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-12-10, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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And I wouldn't say arguements either, and extra text will take time to read longer making things slower, yes?
Mate, this is the stupidest I heard anyone say in a long time. I almost had to quote you in my signature.
The point of arguments is to convince people of what you are saying is a good idea. Without arguments, it ends up being me believing in what you saying, because you are you. And Iím sorry to say, that doesnít work with me, when you are just a random dude on the internet. Most people tent to listen to what you saying, if you explain why you are right, making us agree faster, making everything go faster, not slower ;)

You are welcome to say Iím average if I donít spam units. Thatís fine with me, but if you read some of the other post, like mine, you can sense Iím not trying to make the most competitive list, Iím trying to make what you call a average list, and I call it fun and casual.

And mate, you are most welcome to comment on other list that I post, but you have to explain you critic so I can use it.

And thanks Epatus, that is some of the smartest things I read on the space marine forum for a long time ;)

Besides that, I think I gotten the critic for my list that I want. Thanks everyone, looking forward to reading what you have to say about my next list ;)

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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-14-10, 01:19 PM
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I am sorry but I can't agree with anything you have just said.

First paragraph: If I read this right "take more than one in case you lose one"(?). Well in that case lets take double everything in case we lose one! Double land raiders; Double terminator squads, etc. I am sorry but that is not an arguement at all.

Second paragraph: Well if you can take out a pred at long range and then a vindi later, surely you can take out a vindi at long range and the other later? or are you suggesting he doubles up only on the preds?

Third paragraph: Did you read that everyone? If you don't have duplicated units you are not smart, in fact you are average! Redundancy is not purely about taking double of everything, it is also about having DIFFERENT units that can perform the same task. That is redundancy. e.g. Attack bikes with MM and Speeder with MM. Redundancy also has to be balanced with versatility. e.g. Land speeder with MM and HF; move 12" and fire the weapon that best suits your current target. This land speeder adds redundancy to the attack bikes, but is still versatile as it can take on other hordes effectively.
Er, yeah it is. It's called tactics which you fail to miss. If you take one land raider guess where all the meltas are going? Yes at that single land raider. Land raiders aren't hard to take down with all the melta around, but two are. So yes, double raiders and double terminators, don't you see many lists running this?

You're missing my point. He only has a predator for long range, take that out and he has no more. The vindicator has to move into range, my melta range so I'm using close range weapons to take it out. I'm suggesting he double up on either.

I know what redundancy. You can have different units i.e predator or dev squad but what is easier to kill? pred with a single shot or dev squad with a large blast? My point is it makes target priority easier and still no redundnacy. With the examples you've given, yes, you have redundancy, however a pred with autocannon and lascannons isn't redundancy with a vindicator isn't it? Pred is anti tank and light armour vindicator can smash troops and heavy armour.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
Mate, this is the stupidest I heard anyone say in a long time. I almost had to quote you in my signature.
The point of arguments is to convince people of what you are saying is a good idea. Without arguments, it ends up being me believing in what you saying, because you are you. And Iím sorry to say, that doesnít work with me, when you are just a random dude on the internet. Most people tent to listen to what you saying, if you explain why you are right, making us agree faster, making everything go faster, not slower ;)

You are welcome to say Iím average if I donít spam units. Thatís fine with me, but if you read some of the other post, like mine, you can sense Iím not trying to make the most competitive list, Iím trying to make what you call a average list, and I call it fun and casual.

And mate, you are most welcome to comment on other list that I post, but you have to explain you critic so I can use it.

And thanks Epatus, that is some of the smartest things I read on the space marine forum for a long time ;)

Besides that, I think I gotten the critic for my list that I want. Thanks everyone, looking forward to reading what you have to say about my next list ;)
Dude did you read or digest what I said? You say you want to make things faster by adding more text, yes? Well adding more stuff takes things longer. I'm pretty sure my point about redundancy and multiple targets can be got over in a few sentences, however it appears you haven't understood my points.

Yes I am a random dude on the internet, what does that make you then? I've explained things right if you cannot agree then that doesn't work with me either

Also I didn't say you was average did I? And there's no point in me posting on your other list if you don't listen or I have to type essays on things if you cannot get it in a few sentences. I'll take a look, but properly wasting my time as I've already said about redundancy and multiple targets several times.

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