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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-07-14, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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Default Salamanders - Ravenguard: Are these lists fluffy enough?

So, I recently got rid of a load of blood angels and want to use the leftover ones and turn them into a Ravenguard allied detachment for my Salamanders. I am currently reading Deliverance Lost and like their background and tactics a lot. I also really like how they compliment the Salamanders tactics (at least in the fluff) and have been really close since the drop pod massacre.

So, I have been toying with some lists at 1500pts. I just wanted to know if you think they are fluffy enough and if not, how can I improve the character of the detachment's without making them completely terrible in games?
As always I want to balance fluff with an eye to win. i.e I don't want to get stomped completely every single game because I bought Vanguard Veterans all with dual lightning claws...Some things have to be compromised.


Salamanders

HQ
Vulkan

Command Squad x5 w/x4 meltaguns, apothecary + Drop Pod

Troops:
Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Rhino

Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Rhino

Elites:
Sternguard Veterans x5 w/x2 heavy flamers, x2 combi-meltas, Drop pod

Fast Attack:
Assault Squad x5 w/x2 flamers + Drop Pod

Assault Squad x5 w/x2 flamers + Drop Pod


Ravenguard

HQ
Shrike

Troops:
Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma gun, x1 combi-plasma w/Razorback w/Twin-Linked Assault Cannons

Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma gun, x1 combi-plasma w/Razorback w/Twin-Linked Assault Cannons

Fast Attack:
Assault Squad x9 w/x2 flamers


Total: 1503pts

---------------------

Salamanders

HQ
Vulkan

Command Squad w/meltaguns x4, apothecary, Drop Pod

Troops:
Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Razorback w/TL Assault Cannon

Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Razorback w/TL Assault Cannon

Elites:
Sternguard Veterans x5 w/x2 heavy flamers, x2 combi-meltas, Drop Pod

Fast Attack:
ASM x5 w/x2 flamers, Drop pod

ASM x5 w/x2 flamers, Drop pod

ASM x5 w/x2 flamers, Drop pod


Ravenguard Allies

HQ
Librarian

Troops:
Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma, x1 combi-plasma + Rhino

Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma, x1 combi-plasma + Rhino

= 1500pts


------------------------


Ravenguard as Primary

HQ
Shrike

Troops:
Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma gun, x1 combi-plasma w/Razorback w/Twin-Linked Assault Cannons

Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma gun, x1 combi-plasma w/Razorback w/Twin-Linked Assault Cannons

Elites:
Vanguard Veterans x8 w/ jump packs, x1 storm shield , vet sergeant w/ power fist + storm shield


Salamanders Allies

HQ
Librarian

Command Squad x5 w/x4 meltaguns + Drop Pod

Troops:
Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Rhino

Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Rhino

Elites:
Sternguard Veterans x5 w/x2 heavy flamers, x2 combi-meltas, drop pod


Fast Attack:
Assault Squad x5 w/x2 flamers + Drop Pod

:1501pts



Okay so the idea behind each list is pretty similar: A mix of razorbacks, rhinos and drop pod assault.

Razorbacks deploy 12", scout 12", move 6", fire Assault Cannons, disembark plasma tacticals, rapid fire plasma.

The idea behind the Ravenguard detachments is that I wanted them to play as if they were creating an ambush: Suddenly all these Razorbacks with small tactical squads are out of the shadows and onto your front lines before you know what is going on, unloading plasma and assault cannons in a first wave, then with Shrike infiltrating and flying in with an Assault Squad or his elite Vanguard Veterans in a second wave.
In theory, this is probably the most effective way I have thought of so far to balance the fluff/character of what Ravenguard are all about without compromising effectiveness too much. But maybe there is a better way to run them as an allied detachment to Sallies? If so, do tell

As for the Sallies: Lots of podding to support the Razorback wave. A twin-linked podding melta command squad to deal with any mech, with Sternguard as a backup (heavy flamers add flexibility). Then the cheap as chips x5 man Assault Squads in the second wave, with those re-rolls to wound on their flamers.

Overall strategy: Melta drop pods pop mech >> Plasma tacticals, assault cannons in first wave >>> Flamers in drop pods and Shrike and his VV or ASM in second wave >>> Rhino tacticals into the midfield

Flaws: No anti-flyer. Very short ranged...I am relying on twin-linked melta and assault cannons for dealing with fliers, which is very risky I admit...But whatever. Fliers are not a common thing in meta.

Thoughts? Favourite list out of the 3? I like the 1st one the most I think. Seems pretty fun.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-07-14, 07:06 PM
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Salamanders - shit ton of melta and flamer. Yup they are very fluffy

Ravenguard - lots and lots of fire power. Yup it's fluffy
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-08-14, 03:01 AM
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I think the first list is definitely a good choice out of the 3 for the RG because I use essentially the same strategy on with on a much grander scale. At 2k I start running the plasmas/ Assault cannon razorspam backed up by 30+ assault marines, a stormraven, scout squad w/ snipers and hellfire bolter and a thunderfire cannon just to round it off. So for its worked pretty well with the closest thing to a defeat that one of my regular opponents could get to was a dead draw in VP and KP. So yours really does pack the up in your face punch that the RG are fluffy for.

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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-08-14, 10:13 AM
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I like the first list, 2 Salamander assault squads would be pushing it fluffwise for some people, but it's only 10 marines.

Seems like fun to play. I think Vulkan is a bit expensive in this list but otherwise looks solid


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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-08-14, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93rdSaphraDarkGuard View Post
I think the first list is definitely a good choice out of the 3 for the RG because I use essentially the same strategy on with on a much grander scale. At 2k I start running the plasmas/ Assault cannon razorspam backed up by 30+ assault marines, a stormraven, scout squad w/ snipers and hellfire bolter and a thunderfire cannon just to round it off. So for its worked pretty well with the closest thing to a defeat that one of my regular opponents could get to was a dead draw in VP and KP. So yours really does pack the up in your face punch that the RG are fluffy for.
That's good to know. Seems like it's the best way to run them with scouting transports. I think at first glance the RG chapter tactics seem like the worst of the codex, but actually when you use those scouting transports for lightning quick T1 strikes it seems like it's pretty effective.

I always take a thunderfire cannon with my Sallies but just couldn't fit it into any of the lists at 1500pts. I think i'd add it at higher points levels though.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-08-14, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varakir View Post
I like the first list, 2 Salamander assault squads would be pushing it fluffwise for some people, but it's only 10 marines.

Seems like fun to play. I think Vulkan is a bit expensive in this list but otherwise looks solid
Yeah I initially had a rule of ZERO fast attack choices for my Sallies (and no scouts). But then someone pointed out that if I just removed the jump packs and put them in a transport or drop pod it's perfectly acceptable fluff-wise to use assault marines, because that's how a lot of the sallies roll in the fluff: i.e Jumppackless with a hard-on for thunderhammers. So as long as I keep them without jump packs I feel it's perfectly acceptable, I think.

From a gaming perspective I think they will be pretty cool too: 95pts a squad in a drop pod, with those 2 flamer templates with re-rolls to wound seems very reasonable.

I did wonder about Vulkan: Is he worth it when I have only 6 meltaguns in my list? Not sure. I was just thinking it may help with anti-flier too. But would they realistically survive to use meltas against fliers? Questionable, I think.

Any ideas of alternative HQ choices? I did toy with the idea of just bringing a naked Libby for 65pts, he could join the Sternguard and use pyromancy (fluffy). But the major downside is that he is practically gifting my opponent slay the warlord. I think a more durable warlord is needed, so Vulkan fitted the bill really with the added bonus of giving twin-linked melta...
I did think of using my Tu' Shan conversion: Usually I use him as a Chapter Master and he is modelled with Eternal Shield and thunderhamer with artificer armour. But that is a whopping 230pts. So only suitable for larger games...I could use the Captain version, which saves points, but it's still 190pts which defeats the object when the idea is to save points by not taking Vulkan...

Master of the Forge with eternal shield perhaps? 140pts. Or just a storm shield? 100pts. Would save 85pts.

Or perhaps a Chaplain? Don't think he would have a place though, since there are no real dedicated CC units.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-09-14, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straken's_Fist View Post
Yeah I initially had a rule of ZERO fast attack choices for my Sallies (and no scouts). But then someone pointed out that if I just removed the jump packs and put them in a transport or drop pod it's perfectly acceptable fluff-wise to use assault marines, because that's how a lot of the sallies roll in the fluff: i.e Jumppackless with a hard-on for thunderhammers. So as long as I keep them without jump packs I feel it's perfectly acceptable, I think.
I just usually try and ensure i don't have more fast attack than i do elite choices, and i don't run multiple units of the same type. 2nd, 3rd and 4th company all have assault squads, speeders and bikes so you're fine to take a few FA choices, but running 3 bike squads or 9 landspeeders is drifting well into the realms of unfluffy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Straken's_Fist View Post
From a gaming perspective I think they will be pretty cool too: 95pts a squad in a drop pod, with those 2 flamer templates with re-rolls to wound seems very reasonable.
Totally agree. Ironically the fast attack slots have the best toys for taking advantage of the salamanders tactics - multi-melta attack bikes, flamer/melta speeders and flamer assault marines are all really good for sallies.Just be careful where you drop your assault marines since they can't charge out of the drop pod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straken's_Fist View Post
I did wonder about Vulkan: Is he worth it when I have only 6 meltaguns in my list? Not sure. I was just thinking it may help with anti-flier too. But would they realistically survive to use meltas against fliers? Questionable, I think.

Any ideas of alternative HQ choices? I did toy with the idea of just bringing a naked Libby for 65pts, he could join the Sternguard and use pyromancy (fluffy). But the major downside is that he is practically gifting my opponent slay the warlord. I think a more durable warlord is needed, so Vulkan fitted the bill really with the added bonus of giving twin-linked melta...
I did think of using my Tu' Shan conversion: Usually I use him as a Chapter Master and he is modelled with Eternal Shield and thunderhamer with artificer armour. But that is a whopping 230pts. So only suitable for larger games...I could use the Captain version, which saves points, but it's still 190pts which defeats the object when the idea is to save points by not taking Vulkan...

Master of the Forge with eternal shield perhaps? 140pts. Or just a storm shield? 100pts. Would save 85pts.

Or perhaps a Chaplain? Don't think he would have a place though, since there are no real dedicated CC units.
For 6 melta shots i don't think Vulkan is worth it. Especially as you can mastercraft a melta and a combi melta for free anyway. I'd be tempted to take a captain with artificer armour, storm shield & power weapon which would free up 50 points.

If you don't mind dropping the command squad then a captain with artificer, storm shield & The Primarch's wrath with a squad of combi-melta sternguard is quite a fun unit, and they can dish out good damage after the initial tank popping.

A level 2 libby with sternguard can be also be nice if you roll Gate of infinity, but if you don't he's a liability. The pyromancy powers are fun, but can be incredibly shit if you roll badly.

Do you have pics of your Tu'shan conversion by the way?


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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-09-14, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
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Hey,

Yeah no way am I taking speeders or bikes. I mean sure, they do have a handful, but I'd rather have an army that reflects the main characteristics of the Sallies and not the rarer units like speeders and bikes.

Hmmm yeah maybe a Captain with a regular storm shield is better. 50pts to spend elsewhere is always nice. And maybe I will experiment with a lvl2 libby too, as even more points are saved there...

I don't think I can part with my Command Squad though, I love it too much, it reliably takes out anything I point it at (bar one occasion where every shot missed despite them being twin-linked lol such is the hilarity of 40k) and the models are all forgeworld conversions so I just gotta use them with all the love that went into them lol (Saying that they aren't even finished yet...but still!)

I will get a pic of Tu' Shan tomorrow (it's like 2.30am here now and I really should go to bed), however it's not much of a conversion when I think about it...It's simply this guy: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...04_873x627.jpg but I cut the axe off and replaced it with a third-party thunderhammer (can't remember which company).

My Firedrakes are much more impressive though, as I spent loads on third party stuff (A new company called SpellCrow. I highly recommend them: http://www.spellcrow.com/salamanders...lds-p-188.html <<< check out the Salamanders bitz, they are beautiful. I used the shields, the talbards and the shoulder pads...And man, I wish I had used those torsos on my sternguard but they were only released a few months ago), so i'll take a pic of them with Tu'Shan :D

Cheers for the feedback.

SF
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-12-14, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varakir View Post
Do you have pics of your Tu'shan conversion by the way?
Here are some pics attached...
Sorry totally forgot about this thread until yesterday! Also, sorry the pics are a bit crap, I am using my ipod as my decent camera broke on safari on my honeymoon a couple of weeks ago...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0189[1].JPG (313.7 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0197[1].JPG (231.9 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0192[1].JPG (297.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0195[1].JPG (316.0 KB, 0 views)
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Last edited by Straken's_Fist; 03-12-14 at 06:53 PM.
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New list intended for 2000pts:

HQ
- Tu'Shan (Captain version, with Eternal Shield, Artificer Armour, Thunderhammer)

- Command Squad, x4 Meltaguns, x1 Apothecary, Drop Pod

Troops:
- Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Rhino

- Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 flamer, x1 combi-flamer + Rhino

Elites:
- Sternguard Veterans x5 w/x2 heavy flamers, x2 combi-meltas, Drop Pod

Fast Attack:
- ASM x5 w/x2 flamers, Drop pod

- ASM x5 w/x2 flamers, Drop pod

Heavy Support:
- Thunderfire Cannon

- Vindicator

- Vindicator

Ravenguard Allies

HQ
- Chaplain w/Jump Pack

Troops
- Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma gun, x1 combi-plasma, Razorback w/TL Assault Cannon

- Tactical Squad x5 w/x1 plasma gun, x1 combi-plasma, Razorback w/TL Assault Cannon

Elites:
- Vanguard Veterans x9 w/jump packs


:1998pts
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