1500 Points Strong, All comers & Fluffy Raptors Space marines with DA allies - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-15-13, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Default 1500 Points Strong, All comers & Fluffy Raptors Space marines with DA allies

40K Army: Space Marines

A big thank you to everyone who has contributed to my other threads as i narrow down further and further onto my Strong all comers Space Marine army. Having written numerous Marines lists these past few weeks i finally feel like im close to being as refined as possible and I have finally reached a list that

1. I feel Comfortable with
2. Is Refined and Competitive

It is an 1500 army list coming in at 2 points short of the limit and is intended to be able to stand its own in a competitive environment.

My Meta and definition of top tier competitive play, is that of army lists that are capable of winning adepticon with a bit of dice luck and being piloted correctly. The main opponents to this list will be Tau occasionally with allies. The Two best players in our group are still playing the same armies that they were when they were released and that is a Wraithwing list with Dark Eldar allies and the other in a Tervigon swarm list. I must say I do say a lot of Heldrakes and Imperial guard blob squads but both of those are only ever seen as an allied contingent. As you can see the field has variety and strength so i just hope you think my list can handle those type of things

The Game Plan is to strike as hard and as fast as possible at my opponents weak point or strongest point, depending on opponent. The Scouts and Tactical marines main role is to capture objectives and hug terrain and are only ever allowed to take pot shots if its safe to do so. While there dedicated transports upon delivery go and try cause issues and disruption. Opponents that use a lot of painful flame templates (Heldrakes cough) the Tactical squad and Scouts will be kept in reserve to allow me to hopefully destroy these before they become a problem.

Raptors Chapter tactics:

The Raptors (Progenitors: Raven Guard)
One of the few known successors of the Raven Guard, the Raptors maintain a spirit of independence, with their individual companies often spending centuries apart developing unique tactics and strategies that are later reincorporated into the Chapter’s flexible combat doctrine. Even amongst such expert marksman as the Adeptus Astartes, the Raptors are rightly famed and feared for their ability to place lethally accurate bolter fire onto enemy units, a skill often practised from ambush to devastating effect.

Strike from the Shadows (as per the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines):

Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in the detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note that units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule.

Legendary Marksmen:
Any unit with this special rule that does not move in the Movement phase of their turn may choose to gain the Rending special rule when firing in the Shooting phase of that turn with boltguns, combi-weapons fired as boltguns or bolt pistols.When using this rule, all boltguns, combi-weapons used as boltguns and bolt pistols fired are counted as being Heavy 1 weapons instead of Rapid Fire or Pistol type weapons for that turn.

Army list:

Raptors Chapter; Primary detachment

HQ – Chapter Master: 255 Points
Bike, thunder hammer, artificer armour, shield eternal, melta bombs.
The Warlord. The standard issue beefcake tank biker. Joins the bikers.

TROOPS – Bike Squad: 258 Points
8 Bikes; 2 Grav-guns; 1 Attack bike with Multi-melta; Sergeant with melta bombs
The beauty of this unit is that it can Combat squad and for the most time it will except when Kill points on offer they will castle up with the 2 HQ's.

TROOPS – 5 Scouts: 75 Points
Boltguns; Camo cloaks; Combi-flamer
DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Land Speeder Storm: 45pts
I love scouts in short, small footprint and are fast because of the Storm. The camo cloaks have great synergy with the techmarines bolster defense. The flamers are for flushing out troops. Along with the tactical marines, they are here over more bikes so they can capture objectives above the ground floor

FAST ATTACK – Storm Talon Gunship: 145 Points
Typhoon missile launchers
FAST ATTACK – Storm Talon Gunship: 145 Points
Typhoon missile launchers
I think you can call these as close to an auto include as possible. Great all round firepower

FAST ATTACK – 1 Land Speeders: 75 Points
Typhoon missile launcher
Nice all rounders and play a nice middle ground between my fast units and my stationary units. These are taken over a 3rd Storm talon to increase my starting forces footprint and firepower leaving me less dependent on reserve rolls.

HEAVY SUPPORT – Thunderfire Cannon: 100 Points
HEAVY SUPPORT – Thunderfire Cannon: 100 Points
Fantastic firepower, these two will generally bolster the terrain of that closest to the objectives my foot troops will trying to be claiming.

Dark Angels; Allied detachment

HQ – Librarian: 120 Points
Bike, power field generator, melta bombs, prescience
Prescience.Great.PFG.Fantastic. A real work horse for the army providing all sorts of bonus' the Space marine players Farseer

TROOPS – 5 Tactical Marines: 90 Points
combi plasma, plasma gun
DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Razorback: 75 Points
Lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun
Fills the TEQ niche nicely and are slighly tougher than the faster scouts

So there we have it 1498/1500pt Space Marine army. Overall what do you think? Its looks like it could work pretty well for me, in an ideal world i would want another troop choice but unfortunately we cant have everything.

So the Fluff:

The Sulsalid Campaign, Fourth Quadrant Rebellion (775-777.M41)


A full quarter of the Segmentum Solar and its outlaying systems were engulfed by a series of wars, revolts and secessionist outbreaks which set that part of the galaxy ablaze with civil strive that became known as the Fourth Quadrant Rebellion. With the civil conflicts affecting most of the systems, Renegade and xenos forces take advantage of the widespread anarchy. More than a dozen Space Marine Chapters are caught up in the fighting, either aiding one faction or another or simply defending their own territories while others were brought in by the Imperium to pacify the quadrant and finally put an end to the fighting. Four Astartes Chapters—the Dark Angels, the Raptors, the Skull Bearers and the Red Wolves -- were instrumental or played an important role in bringing the rebellion to an end. The Raptors Chapter and Battlefleet Solar fell to the task of toppling the Traitors of the Sulsalid Sub-sector. As the wider rebellion had raged, the powers and principalities of Sulsalid had cast off their tithe lords and Cardinals in favour of the twin-abominations of "progress" and "democracy." Given time the Imperium knew such seditious corruption could quickly spread, and the Adeptus Terra tasked the Raptors to stamp out the heresy as swiftly as possible. In order to accomplish their aims, the Raptors took direct strategic command of several failing Imperial taskforces that had been thrown back by the Traitor forces at the Sulsalid Sub-sector capital world of Auranar. Here they reinforced and redirected the Imperial Guard assaults, using them as deliberate cover for their own series of lethal strikes at the enemy's command, control and supply infrastructure. In short order the Traitor forces were thrown into disarray and Auranar's power-distribution network was severed in a dozen vital locations, cutting off enemy supplies and communications. The Traitors buckled before the mass assault of the Imperial Guard, but it was the Assault Squads and Thunderhawks of the Raptors that smashed their way into the sky-palaces of the Sulasalid Ordinators in the final battles of the campaign and put them to the sword, ending this one revolt among many in the rebellion with ruthless efficiency.

Let me know what you think

Last edited by Minigiant; 12-20-13 at 12:31 PM.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-16-13, 11:42 AM
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overal very fragile list. the only thing that can take a knock are the bikers. the land speeders are icky, you're better of with a vindi. in my experience the speeders get shot down before they had 2 turns of shooting unless you go mass speeder. i would switch out 1 skyhammer on the talon for something else. the only thing you need double skyhammer for are triple heldrake lists and even those can be handled with 1 skyhammer and 1 other.
Units of 5 marine dont cut it these days with the massed firepower, i would say upgrade the unit in the razorback to a 10 full 10 man squad. this would also give you more scoring potential which you need with the fragile scouts.

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"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-16-13, 02:27 PM
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I have two qualms with this:
1.) The biker sarge should IMO have something choppy to help the squad with real melee units.
2.) "were instrumental in playing an important role". Rather, they were instrumental or played an important role (in bringing the rebellion to an end).

Otherwise that looks awesome =) I'm a xeno myself, not a marine though, so I'm not privy to the finer points of playing with SM. That's a list I would definitely want to try and the fluff is cool!
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-16-13, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lokyar View Post
overall very fragile list. the only thing that can take a knock are the bikers. the land speeders are icky, you're better of with a vindi. in my experience the speeders get shot down before they had 2 turns of shooting unless you go mass speeder. i would switch out 1 skyhammer on the talon for something else. the only thing you need double skyhammer for are triple heldrake lists and even those can be handled with 1 skyhammer and 1 other.
Units of 5 marine dont cut it these days with the massed firepower, i would say upgrade the unit in the razorback to a 10 full 10 man squad. this would also give you more scoring potential which you need with the fragile scouts.
Space marines in today's meta are fragile all together that is why White scars are the strongest, they improve bikes and bikes are not fragile. however i am not playing white scars so i have had to think outside the box. The theory
"Well, if they're big and you're small, then you're mobile and they're slow. You're hidden and they're exposed. You only fight battles you know you can win. That's the way the Vietcong did it. You capture their weapons and you use them against them the next time."

So the army is fast and fights at an arms reach. yes land speeders can be downed by concentrated small arms fire but they should never be in range or god forbid inside rapid fire range.

The vindicator is not a good tank and considering my 'Strongest' unit is getting close to my opponent i will not be risking it blowing up my own troops to a dodgy scatter.

Your next two parts both offer improvements and that they are but you offer no way to gain these points. Skyhammer is by far the most cost efficient set up, i would prefer typhoon missile launchers but the points eluded me. The 5 man tac squad if i lined up and fought head on would indeed don't cut it to massed fire but they are not here to get into firefights they alongside the scouts are intended to mop up leftovers and take objectives

The list is unlike the 'normal' marine army as this list is more about the sum of its parts than it is about the individual.

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Originally Posted by Zakath View Post
I have two qualms with this:
1.) The biker sarge should IMO have something choppy to help the squad with real melee units.
2.) "were instrumental in playing an important role". Rather, they were instrumental or played an important role (in bringing the rebellion to an end).

Otherwise that looks awesome =) I'm a xeno myself, not a marine though, so I'm not privy to the finer points of playing with SM. That's a list I would definitely want to try and the fluff is cool!
I actually did have a power weapon on him once and it dropped as the points needed elsewhere.

Thank you for the correction, would have never noticed that myself

Last edited by Minigiant; 12-16-13 at 06:51 PM.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-16-13, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minigiant View Post
Space marines in todays meta are fragile all together that is why White scars are the strongest, they improve bikes and bikes are not fragile. however im not playing white scars so i have had to think outside the box. The theory
"Well, if they're big and you're small, then you're mobile and they're slow. You're hidden and they're exposed. You only fight battles you know you can win. That's the way the Vietcong did it. You capture their weapons and you use them against them the next time."

So the army is fast and fights at an arms reach. yes land speeders can be downed by concentrated small arms fire but they should never be in range or god forbid inside rapid fire range.

The vindicator is not a good tank and considering my 'Strongest' unit is getting close to my opponent i will not be risking it blowing up my own troops to a dodgy scatter.

Your next two parts both offer improvements and that they are but you offer no way to gain these points. Skyhammer is by far the most cost efficient set up, i would prefer typhoon missile launchers but the points eluded me. The 5 man tac squad if i lined up and fought head on would indeed don't cut it to massed fire but they are not here to get into firefights they alongside the scouts are intended to mop up leftovers and take objectives

The list is unlike the 'normal' marine army as this list is more about the sum of its parts than it is about the individual.
im less woried about massed small arms fire and more worried about the bigger guns, say there is an autocannon in the game or somehintg equivelent your speeders are dead the first turn the enemy gets a shooting face. There are A LOT of str 6-8 high volume guns out there being played. DA squad will die before they get in range if they get in range at all. same with the scouts.

also the vindi scatter is complete bullshit, you cant scatter 24 inch. which you will be since you are fighting at "arms reach" and most of your points are in 48" up shots (thunderfire, tallons and ls)
the only scoring unit you have that might survive a game are the bikes. considering almost all the game modes in wh40k are "get objectives" having 1 maybe 2 scoring units that are actually durable is NOT acceptable. 5 man squads WILL die, even at long range because they are just so easy to kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by returnoftheclown View Post
"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
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im less woried about massed small arms fire and more worried about the bigger guns, say there is an autocannon in the game or somehintg equivelent your speeders are dead the first turn the enemy gets a shooting face. There are A LOT of str 6-8 high volume guns out there being played. DA squad will die before they get in range if they get in range at all. same with the scouts.

also the vindi scatter is complete bullshit, you cant scatter 24 inch. which you will be since you are fighting at "arms reach" and most of your points are in 48" up shots (thunderfire, tallons and ls)
the only scoring unit you have that might survive a game are the bikes. considering almost all the game modes in wh40k are "get objectives" having 1 maybe 2 scoring units that are actually durable is NOT acceptable. 5 man squads WILL die, even at long range because they are just so easy to kill.
You are just not getting this army, that's fine its not everyone s cup of tea but there is not need to be passive aggressive. Your argument would be better if it was not full of poor grammatical errors.

Autocannons can do just as much damage to other transports but mine are faster and i get a Jink save unlike Rhinos. The DA will not be going into range, opponents will be coming into range with them,

Yes most of my army is fighting at 'arms reach' but what my 'strongest' unit; as you call it, are not. Also the vindicators 24" does not complement my armies longer range and rolling 1 towards my opponent will inevitably get it killed.

You say 5 man squads don't survive, Tau players run 6 man fire warrior teams just fine because there are more important units to target, as is the same with this army. If they get killed it means my opponent is not shooting back at the units that are killing them. I have up to 4 scoring units and at 1500 points that is sufficient.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-16-13, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Minigiant View Post
You are just not getting this army, that's fine its not everyone s cup of tea but there is not need to be passive aggressive. Your argument would be better if it was not full of poor grammatical errors.

If i'm not getting it, explain to me so i can help. Also i'm not native english so don't throw that at me.

Autocannons can do just as much damage to other transports but mine are faster and i get a Jink save unlike Rhinos. The DA will not be going into range, opponents will be coming into range with them,

DA dont have the range to let people come to them, they just get shot by units that are not in their range.


Yes most of my army is fighting at 'arms reach' but what my 'strongest' unit; as you call it, are not. Also the vindicators 24" does not complement my armies longer range and rolling 1 towards my opponent will inevitably get it killed.

wait, the vindi doesn't complement your army but you have a bunch of rush units that have NO support so why is support for those units not good?

You say 5 man squads don't survive, Tau players run 6 man fire warrior teams just fine because there are more important units to target, as is the same with this army. If they get killed it means my opponent is not shooting back at the units that are killing them. I have up to 4 scoring units and at 1500 points that is sufficient.

Tau keeps the units in reserve and sticks them in full cover, they are mainly objective grabbers. Tau unlike SM, has cheap non-vital units which he spamms. You don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by returnoftheclown View Post
"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-16-13, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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If i'm not getting it, explain to me so i can help. Also i'm not native english so don't throw that at me.
Im not using it against you, if i cant read your rebuttals this debate will not work

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Originally Posted by lokyar View Post
DA dont have the range to let people come to them, they just get shot by units that are not in their range.
People will have to when they are at the objectives

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Originally Posted by lokyar View Post
wait, the vindi doesn't complement your army but you have a bunch of rush units that have NO support so why is support for those units not good?
No they do not. It would be my only heavy armour so the opponent will fire every AT weapon at it, it will not survive and then its 130 points down the drain

Quote:
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Tau keeps the units in reserve and sticks them in full cover, they are mainly objective grabbers. Tau unlike SM, has cheap non-vital units which he spamms. You don't.
And i cant put them in reserve and keep them in cover? The scouts and marines are objective grabbers
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People will have to when they are at the objectives

No they don't, they just shoot them dead so you can't grab the objective.


No they do not. It would be my only heavy armour so the opponent will fire every AT weapon at it, it will not survive and then its 130 points down the drain

So you let their AT weaponry fire at the thing that get hurt EVEN more by it?

And i cant put them in reserve and keep them in cover? The scouts and marines are objective grabbers

Adeptus marines cost WAY to much for objective grabbers, if objective grabbing is what you want you're better of with scouts with snipers and Camo cloaks, not Adeptus marines.

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"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
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No they don't, they just shoot them dead so you can't grab the objective
That is part of the game, i have other priority targets that should provide enough target saturaton to cause target priority problems

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So you let their AT weaponry fire at the thing that get hurt EVEN more by it?
No, but are you saying it is possible to kill every AT weapon? If i do that then im not killing the high volume medium strength weaponry that hurts the rest of my force more. You never run a heavy tank solo, it does not work. I played Imperial guard long enough. tankxtank = tank^2. Twice the firepower and twice the survivability.

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Originally Posted by lokyar View Post
Adeptus marines cost WAY to much for objective grabbers, if objective grabbing is what you want you're better of with scouts with snipers and Camo cloaks, not Adeptus marines.
Why do you think i run scouts in a storm, if DA had a storm i would run that. I took a lot of my inspiration from Nasha's 2k army over on Warseer who just came joint 5th in a large tournament running 2 units of tactical marines like mine and 2 squads of 5 bikes. I have just as many scoring units in 500 points fewer; i think i will be okay

We are just not agreeing on this list, i accept that.
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