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TKE Presents: Provisional Chaos Legions Heavy Support Thread - Featuring Mark rules!

5K views 23 replies 9 participants last post by  DeceivedRadek 
#1 ·
As it stands, the following will be the HS options in the Legions Codex:

Havocs
Chaos Predator
Chaos Vindicator
Obliterator Cult
Daemon Engine


Note the absence of the Defiler, and (less notable) the Chaos Dreadnought. At the moment, I am planning for those to be Fast Attack and Elite, respectively. :victory:


Without much further ado then, the Rules for Chaos Marks!

Mark of Nurgle: Models with the Mark of Nurgle benefit from the following USRs: Feel No Pain, Slow and Purposeful. They also gain one to their T value - generally making them T4(5)

Mark of Chaos Glory: Models with the Mark of Chaos Glory increase their Ld to 10, and benefit from the Stubborn USR.

Mark of Tzeentch: Models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain a 3++ Invulnerable Save.

Mark of Slaanesh: Models with the Mark of Slaanesh gain one to their base I value, and gain the Fearless USR.

Mark of Khorne: Models with the Mark of Khorne gain one Attack, and benefit from the following USRs: Fearless, Furious Charge.

Legion Mark: Models with a Legion Mark benefit from the First Founding special rule.

[DESIGNERS NOTES - Cult Troops (ie, Zerks) don't actually 'bear' their respective Marks, and often get slightly different net results - this is intentional.

Also, the Legion Mark interacts with characters such as a Disciple of Ecstasy, Warsmith, or Herald of Nurgle to replace 'First Founding' with whatever bonus I give that Legion (see here) in that Character's Special Rules.]

Now, on to Heavy Support. I have a double-dose for tonight, you lucky lucky people are getting first Havocs and then Oblits!

Havocs I took a strange direction with, so a little blurb:

I want the army to be mostly about killing Marines. Heresy broke out, most Legions dumped their Hand Flamers, cos the Xenos killing part was done - and they grabbed Plasma. So the army is slightly centred around Plasma alternatives to genuine anti-tank.

Also, I was thinking partly of the old Tarantula, Rapier Laser Destroyer and Mole Mortar...and I didn't want Chaos to be left out on the retro-style fun of the Thunderfire, without mimicking the unit. Feedback even more appreciated than usual.


Havocs: 100 points.

Havoc: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld7 Sv3+
Havoc Team: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A3 Ld7 Sv3+
Havoc Champion: WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit: 5 Havocs
Type: Infantry
Wargear: Boltgun, Bolt pistol, CCW, Power Armour, Frag and Krak Grenades.
Dedicated Transport: Rhino@35pts.
Options: Add up to 7 additional Havocs@16pts/model
Up to 4 models may replace their Boltgun with one of the following:
Meltagun@15pts ; Plasmagun at 10pts ; Flamer@7pts ; Autocannon@15pts ; Missile Launcher@10pts ; Heavy Bolter@5pts ; Lascannon@20pts ; Plasma Cannon@15pts ; Reaper Autocannon@15pts

One model may be upgraded to a Havoc Champion@10pts
A Champion may replace any of his weapons with: Power Weapon@10pts ; Power Fist@15pts ; Plasma Pistol@5pts ; Lightning Claw@10pts ; Plasma Gun@10pts

Two models may be replaced with a Havoc Team@10pts. A Havoc Team is armed with a Havoc Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol, CCW, F&K Grenades and wears Power Armour. In addition, it is Relentless, and Bulky.

One model may carry an Icon of the Gods@15pts.

Every model in the unit may purchase a Mark of the Gods at the points cost below:
MoK@3/model ; MoT@3/model ; MoN@4/model ; MoS@2/model ; MoCG@3/model ; Legion Mark@4/model. - All models must bear the same Mark.


Obliterator Cult: 60 points.

Obliterator: WS4 BS4 S5 T6 W2 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv3+/5+

Unit: 1 Obliterator
Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Deep Strike.
Wargear: Power Fist, Obliterator Weapons.
Options: Add up to 4 Obliterators@80pts/model.

Obliterator Weapons:
Each turn (decided in the Shooting Phase) the weapons configure themselves into one of the following (this effect applies until the end of the owning player's next Movement Phase) :
Plasma Cannon ; Twin-Linked Plasma Gun ; Lascannon ; Multi-Melta ; Twin-Linked Meltagun ; Twin-Linked Flamer ; Power Fist.


Thoughts, then?
 
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#3 ·
Hrmm, it might be too cheap atm.

However - it doesn't REALLY improve their save.

I mean, what AP3 weapons are common?

I can only think of Fire Prisms and Battlecannon really.
 
#5 ·
3++ invul is very nice and I think we've been spoiled a bit by marine codices who receive it cheaply through storm shields. That said, unless the marines who can take 3++ are incredibly potent offensively, it does nothing to protect them from being torrented or help them kill enemies.

What I find most questionable is the price increase on havocs (up to 20 points per model) with the champion reduced to LD9 and the Havocs reduced to LD7. How can the havocs compete with the updated obliterators outlined below them?

Although you did reduce the obliterator armor save I guess to compensate for their larger unit availability now.
 
#6 ·
3++ is good, but should +10pts/model.

No no. Obliterators should not be elite. Not sure what you've got as plans for elites, but they're effectively Cult Troops. Perhaps a Special Character/DIY Trait which gives them the ability to be taken as either or, but currently, they're too good.

MoT - what about giving them +1 Wound/+2 Toughness and a "Wraithsight" for standard troops?

And MoS Havocs should be able to take Blastmasters. And Fearless, no I don't think so. I don't see Slaanesh as being so inured that they don't know when to flee - perhaps on a double, they pass the morale check, regardless of modifiers.

Why can Havoc AspChamps not take combi-weapons? Not too sure on the 6 Man Missile Team for 150pts.



 
#8 ·
What is a havoc missile launcher?

Also my critiques:

Drop the plasma gun and lightning claw upgrades on the havoc champ.
Make all the oblits the same cost, same with havocs. The extra models shouldn't be cheaper that doesn't make any sense
The missile launcher should be the same price as the autocannon
Make all the oblits 80 pts. Change the statline to 4 4 4 5 2 4 2 2+/5+
otherwise lose deep strike
max oblit squad should be 3. they perform just fine at 3 in the CSM codex. at 5 they will be too good. And there would also be no reason to get havocs as 5 oblits would have more weapons
3++ is too good for an entire unit. (don't care how you defend it)
give the havocs a way to split fire or at least a tank hunter upgrade

i gotta go now but i'll be back for more :p
 
#10 ·
My only comment is fluffy... and I will comment more on the scores later etc.

Plasma?!!!!! You know after hefting about a plasma gun that has a 1 in 6 chance of blowing up everytime I use it. You think CSM's would have ditched them some time in the last 10,000 odd years. How could even 1 be still going..... well battle 650 for the century... hope old plasie doesnt break down today and melt my arm off? LOL...

CSM would have no plasma unless they captured it. all of the orginal stuff guns and pistols surely would have fried up in the centuries since. I think they would be more likely to be using autocannons and heavy stubbers etc, even autoguns as combi parts of weapons. Easy and cheap to manufacture stuff or stuff they can capture easily.

Plasma tech is far too.... easily destroyed for them to be using it so often. Even melta would work better as an edge I feel.
 
#24 ·
I totally agree with the fluff driven logic here. I shudder every time i use any plasma weapon with my ancient and treasured Chaos Astartes. 10000 years wasted by a bad plasma burn is not worth taking the shot. I imagine Lascannon and Melta would be preferred.:eek:k:
 
#11 ·
Melta proliferation is an Imperial thing. Plus, old-school Plasma weps were better made - Get Hot is a more recent problem (though it still happened then, when you rolled a Jam on your Sustained Fire Dice... :p)
 
#16 ·
Heres one of my points. Imagine usin this codex against another person. That person already knows how good oblits are. And now you show up with 15 of them with T6 and a 3+ invul?! Cmon. If i was playing you i would end the game right there. You gotta keep the dex fair even if it nerfs you a little
 
#18 · (Edited)
The oblits don't have a 3++ they have a 3+ armor save / 5+ invul, meaning he increased their toughness but nerfed their 2+.

And despite the alarum over the 3++ available through the mark, it is hard to judge its cost when we don't know the units it is going on. The CURRENT thousand sons have a 4++ given, and they come with SnP, a sorceror, and AP3 bolters (at high cost). Given that the havocs are 20 points base, bringing them to the current 23 point total of a base rubric marine seems reasonable as only some can have the heavy / special weapons, and they don't get AP3 bolters or the benefit of SNP.

EDITED: current thousand sons have a 4++, as Iron_Freak220 correctly noticed. I wrote 3++ by mistake.
 
#20 ·
I apologize, typo. *facepalm* In case its not clear in my above post, I would argue that the offensive advantages are roughly equal for the points, IMO, to the defensive improvement by granting a 3++. Given how expensive havocs have been shown to be, I believe that the 3++ will not be unreasonable. We will see, however, as more units are revealed. Oblits still can't be marked, or this would be imbalanced.
 
#22 ·
Well let's compare a 3++ save to other codexes. Space wolves have to pay at-least 15 points to get a 3++ save. Some of there units need to pay 30 points for it. Now lets take a look at space marine legion of the damned who all come with a 3++ save. They are nearly twice as expensive as a space marine. So the idea of giving a unit a 3++ save for 4 points seems imbalanced.
 
#21 ·
3++ is insane tho. Not just on havocs. Forget sons or zerks. Just get nilla csm squads, kit them out for CC and they'll be pretty unstoppable. Not as efficient certainly but very much so unstoppable.

At this point the only thing that could eat them are horde CC armies especially with assault vehicle drop pods (which also make no sense TKE)
 
#23 ·
To an extent, I *DO* agree - but LotD is a bad comparison, as they are shit. :)

Also, different units pay a different amount for Marks, but they always do the same.

Therefore - Traitor Legionnaires that have MoT may be, for argument's sake, 26 point/model...they're still T4 W1 and very much vulnerable to torrenting, in this case.

I believe increasing the price for Havocs only correct at this juncture...although I presumed (and still do, somewhat) that Ld7 is a bit of a balancing feature - so what if you're Invulnerable? I kill two and you flee. Taking a Champ to get around this drives the cost up rightly.
 
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