Leave No Model Unconverted: A Tall Scale Battle Company in the making - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #11 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-15-12, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zetronus View Post
@Veteran Sergeant

Firstly a HUGE THANKS for sharing your project, I too have felt the Marine mini was too mini and need a couple of extra mils to stand out better.

Its a true joy to see your models, I love conversions and I was wishing the thread (and pictures) to never end!

I must ask, what gauge drill bits do you use for the barrels / muzzles, if I might be so bold as to also ask what tool do you use?
Glad you've enjoyed it thus far.

The barrels are done with a 1mm drill that I bought at a model airplane shop and is powered by my fingers, lol. It's actually perfect for the side holes with no modification because it fits right into the molded depression and will push right through. It's a little too fine for the barrel mouth, but sometimes that is a good thing since it can be an imprecise practice. I tried to take a picture of the little bastard, but it's so small it didn't come out too well.

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Originally Posted by spanner94ezekiel View Post
Really loving the work so far. I do have a couple of niggles though:

1. I really don't think the special issue weapons needed their barrels shortening. I think they look too stubby now, in comparison to the rest of the model. But maybe that's just me.
2. That pistol you converted (drawn from the holster), I think isn't necessarily accurate. If you look at the holstered pistol, I think it looks like a normal pistol, simply without the magazine. Hence, the "slimmer" version you have simply looks too flimsy and unlike a bolt pistol to me - more like a laspistol unfortunately.

+rep for your amazing effort so far.
These are fair opinions. What I ended updeciding to do was just have 3 classes of bolt pistol. The SMG sized "standard" bolt pistols are sidearms for anyone who would need medium-short range engagement weapons. Devastators carrying missile launchers, lascannons, etc. Sergeants, special weapons Marines, etc. Everyone else would have a smaller, more maneuverable and less bulky sidearm. As far as them fitting in a holster with no magazine inserted, there's just no way I can reconcile carrying a defensive weapon that isn't immediately usable. I remember being ordered to carry a concealed pistol in Condition 3 when I was assigned to civilian clothes humanitarian stuff one time and it bothered me that I was being asked to carry a weapon (implying potential threat) and not having the ability to immediately engage a threat (suggesting the weapon wasn't considered needed).

The special weapons are actually more or less the same size as the bolters now. They may look a bit stubby because people are used to seeing them look so large. Everything in 40K is a bit too big to me. Honestly, if it wasn't so much effort to fix the grippy hands (which would be way too big), and actually modify the weapons, I'd have slimmed down the standard bolters by chopping them lengthwise too. The effect I wanted at the end was a weapon that appeared to be maneuverable at close ranges. Which is important since both of those weapons are only used at close quarters. Thanks for the rep though. We don't have to share the same exact vision. That's the fun of the hobby.


Anyhow, I've decided to give an accounting of the project as it stands. This isn't actually all of the vehicles, and none of the vehicles are "complete" to my standards. You can see my 3rd Edition first run LR Crusader (I literally bought it the first month the model was available when its rules were only in White Dwarf and non-Black Templar Chapters were still limited to 1), which I, quite fortunately in retrospect, never painted. I apologize for the poor quality of the photos as I didn't have any better place to take pics, and had to use my phone's camera (it takes pretty good photos, but not up to such a task)




And in a squad by squad order. None of these guys are permanently assigned to these squads, it just makes it easy to keep track of the project if I keep an organized tab of how many full units I have completed. Only have two completed Sergeants right now, so the angry pointing guy is filling in as the squad leader for the Devastators. "Kill those assholes over there!"





The 2nd Squad's magnetized Sergeant is probably getting reassigned to the Assault Squad as I think with some different arm poses, re-basing and a jump pack he'll look okay. I had big plans for his pose (was going to be stomping on some poor bastard's face), but I wasn't able to convey the movement and animation I was looking for, so he got re-done. The final effort isn't really working for me. His magnetized arms are second hand, so it may just be the arms aren't posed for that specific model. Or he may get taken apart and completely re-tasked. However, for now he stays.



I didn't bother to photograph the Assault Marine Combat Squad because, well, they are a few posts up.

Regardless, there's the total project progress. I've finally gotten around to playing Fallout: New Vegas (I've had it for months, lol). I don't play a lot of video games, but I loved the Fallout series back in the day (still have copies of the three original PC games). However, as you can imagine it chews at my hobby time. Sorry, heh.

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: An odyssey in posing, tall scaling and other madness.

The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy
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post #12 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-15-12, 05:34 PM
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I've never understood why anyone would want to make it harder for their marines to get cover.

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post #13 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-15-12, 06:26 PM
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I think the sarg in the second squad looks awsome, the whole squad is just running forward shooting like hell and hes just in the middle posing saying "BOOOSH" just my opinion though

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post #14 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-16-12, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Iron Angel View Post
I've never understood why anyone would want to make it harder for their marines to get cover.

Now that brings up an idea.... converting dwarf space marines. Just take 1mm from the thigh, another from the shin, 1mm from the waist, and maybe from the arms.
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post #15 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-16-12, 01:43 AM
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I've never understood why anyone would want to make it harder for their marines to get cover.
I think it comes down to where you get the most enjoyment out of the hobby. I enjoy the converting more than anything else so i'll build stuff because i like the way it is going together rather than because i like the way it will play. I've got a battlewagon with 4 big shootas and a lobber for crying out loud, not exactly an amazing tactical loadout but it looks pretty cool anyway and i enjoyed building it.

I would guess that creating something more inkeeping with the background is more important to the OP than how well the units will do in battle. Marines are meant to be taller than the models make them out to be after all. The only reason that they're not bigger model wise is probably due to the extra cost that the little bit of plastic would mean across the whole range.

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post #16 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-16-12, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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I think it comes down to where you get the most enjoyment out of the hobby. I enjoy the converting more than anything else so i'll build stuff because i like the way it is going together rather than because i like the way it will play. I've got a battlewagon with 4 big shootas and a lobber for crying out loud, not exactly an amazing tactical loadout but it looks pretty cool anyway and i enjoyed building it.

I would guess that creating something more inkeeping with the background is more important to the OP than how well the units will do in battle. Marines are meant to be taller than the models make them out to be after all. The only reason that they're not bigger model wise is probably due to the extra cost that the little bit of plastic would mean across the whole range.
Pretty much. I'll be honest, I don't even really like the game of 40K anymore. It's too simplified at its core, and has gotten too far away from its roots as a sci-fi wargame, and at the same time, it has broken itself by trying to use a simple system to represent complex army type interactions. But I played this game a ton as a kid, and I love the universe, or at least, I love it the way I envision it. If that's all this army ends up being, an expensive modeling project that sits on a shelf and looks cool collecting dust, it will have been fun. If it brings some inspiration to other gamers, and/or they enjoy what I've been doing, even better.

So yeah, this is a modeling log. If you're looking for munchkin power gamer type conversions and tourney lists, you're absolutely in the wrong place. I can't imagine ever playing Apocalypse, so the very core idea of making a Battle Company is absurd. I will, without a doubt, never field this entire army on a table/floor/etc. So enjoy my waste of money. Or don't, lol.

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Originally Posted by Josh101 View Post
I think the sarg in the second squad looks awsome, the whole squad is just running forward shooting like hell and hes just in the middle posing saying "BOOOSH" just my opinion though
Well I'm glad you like him. Just to be clear though, I was talking about the Sergeant in the second Tactical squad with the leg up pose, not the one with the combi-melta. The combi-melta guy I like.

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: An odyssey in posing, tall scaling and other madness.

The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy
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post #17 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-16-12, 03:40 PM
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Well, I for one am glad that you enjoy creating something new out of the game. Your larger than life Space Marines are really cool. I tried to emulate a little, but didn't do as well. What do you think?
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post #18 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-16-12, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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It's not bad. I'll admit right up front I've used nothing special to complete these guys, so don't get discouraged. It's really low tech.

My tools:
X-acto blades (I like the #10 general purpose rounded tip ones.)
1mm drill for the barrels
1mm (legs), 1.5mm(waist) and in some cases .5mm, plastic card.
Narrow tipped hobby file.

I can't, off the top of my head remember what size I use for the arm magnets on the Sergeants, but you'll want to use one that is close to or the same size of whatever magnets you end up using obviously. But the above tools are pretty much it. I have some snips I use for sprues or cleaning up the old metal bits.

It isn't a master class going on here. Which should be encouraging, because if you like what you're seeing, it's the sort of results that pretty much anyone can achieve with a little patience. I have sculpted nothing. There is no green stuff involved in this project. Everything is crafted out of the existing models, bits of sprue, or plastic card.

Some of the earliest figures are here:


You can also see the difference in the placement of the cuts. I've moved to almost exclusively cutting along the hip joint for two reasons. Easier to file down, and also imperfections are better hidden by all the gear. To answer the other question: The legs are 1mm. The waist is 1.5mm. However, there are examples in there of 1mm. It's only a slight difference. The outer left and right models are 1mm. The one in the center is 1.5mm.

For example, this is one of my favorites, and there's absolutely nothing special about him:

He's the example of how you can file the soft armor at the joints to fix the hand positions, or as in this case, create an entirely unique pose. The arm has also been cut at the shoulder and rotated to 90 degrees horizontal to help achieve the desired look. Left wrist was sliced behind the wrist to rotate the support hand to grip the rifle.



So you can see the arm cuts, I'll show you the magnetized power fist from the most recent Sergeant. This arm was actually the "punching" power fist that was cut from it's shoulder piece and fit to a standard shoulder to achieve the hanging look. I have three of those fists, so I wanted some variation. Figured I'd test proof of concept and try to mod it. I feel it was successful. As you can see, nothing sophisticated here. Wish I'd taken process photos of it. I clipped the tubes free from the arm, then sliced them at an angle to make the arm fit flat to the body, but make it look like the cables were disappearing under the should pad when it was actually assembled. As you can see, it looks rough as hell when by itself. I'm going to finish it with gap fill and some more clean-up, but this is what it looks like when it is on the model without any finishing:



Here's a last one with the top down so you can see that with proper wrist rotation, the bolters will remain straight up and down. Wrist positioning is key, because if you just try to rotate the arms, you'll end up with odd angles. Both wrists on this model have been cut to achieve this look.



When posing, you just have to look at what's important to realism, physiologically speaking.

Think about the angles of comfortable, natural movement and the overall range of motion in the arms. It revolves around the shoulders, elbows and wrists. There is only so much you can do with shoulders unless you're going to be green stuffing or cannibalizing the various arms which have more complicated shoulder attachments. Some of the basic arms sit at different angles at the glue point. Might want to analyze the various arm bits you have. One handed arms seem to sit at a more distinct "outward" angle a lot of the time. Don't be afraid to mix and match arm bits as you cut them apart because most forearms are interchangeable; just keep track of them, lol. Fortunately for Space Marines, almost all good firing stances (in real life) involve shoulders being tight and tucked. So the elbows and wrists are where you need to concentrate. Unlike real arms, the armored arms of Space Marines are more or less cylindrical, so you can rotate them and revolve them without looking strange. Most of my arm cuts are made just below the "under-shoulder pad" that's part of the actual arm bit. At this point, you can rotate the arms pretty much at your discretion since the cut will be hidden underneath the shoulder pad.for the most part If you're picky, you'll need to do some clipping, filling and filing to make them perfect. Depends on what level you're taking your project to. For table-top quality miniatures, there's not a whole lot of heavy work needed.

The wrists are the other point of movement in the human arm you're going to take into consideration. There are two basic ways. Clip behind the wrist ring, or just the hand and soft armor wrist. Behind the ring is easiest, and ideal for the "support" left hands since what you typically need to do is rotate the hand to accept the new firing stance, but not mess with the angle it sits lengthwise. The right hands are probably best cut just in front of the wrist ring, leaving the joint intact. At that point you can carefully file the soft armor at whatever angle you might need. For "one handed" weapon grips like the combi-melta, I suggest using extra Assault Marine arms with bolt pistols or plasma pistols you aren't using (there should be plenty of these lying around if you have any Assault Marines in your army). Can even use the melee weapon arms. They're just more of a pain to shave off sometimes and won't have "trigger finger" hands. The wrists on them are typically already angled where you want them to be, while the bolter cradle arms have this unnatural upward angle to them because they are designed for a "hip firing" look. Whoever modeled them watched too many 80s movies for inspiration. ;) Those wrists will almost always need to be modified, and at the very least rotated so that the weapon doesn't have some kind of oddball cant to it and sits straight up and down (unless your pose calls for a cant).

My own personal philosophy is not to try too hard to make them look down the sights. It just won't work, and will look strange when it does. The guns are too big, and the chests too deep so the heads won't tilt far enough over. Plus, they've got a little nubbin on the gun that looks like a sensor and supposedly awesome helmet targeting (another reason the models need helmets). The iron sights on the gun are like the targeter on the missile launcher. It's an aesthetic thing for the model which is anachronistic to the genre. I've contemplated shaving off all the front sight posts on my models. What you're looking for in these poses is a more aggressive look. Space Marines, with their powered armor, don't need to worry about marksmanship fundamentals. But they're going to use them anyway. It's instinctive at a certain point. As Scouts and neophytes they didn't have power armor. They'd have been taught how to shoot correctly, and by the time they've been practicing doing it a decade or more, every damned day, it's going to be automatic. Plus, it just looks better.

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: An odyssey in posing, tall scaling and other madness.

The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

Last edited by Veteran Sergeant; 06-16-12 at 04:15 PM.
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post #19 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-17-12, 05:03 AM
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Very cool. I tried to make the chest larger with milliput, but it didn't work out too well. On the legs and chest and arms, I used pieces of leftover sprue to extend the cut, then filled in with milliput. But, it is very messy and tends to get into all the places I don't want it. I'll keep trying to get one as good as yours.
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post #20 of 157 (permalink) Old 06-17-12, 07:01 AM
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Icon Everyone gets a combat knife?! Yes!

This Plog makes me happy and sad at the same time--happy, because this battle company is going to be F-ing spectacular (hell, it already is), and sad because it has now made me want to go back and saw apart all of my Astartes to make them 2mm taller.

Thanks for sharing the reasoning behind your modeling choices. I have always felt the same way about bolt pistol holsters and the various proportionality quirks that continue to plague GW's 40k model ranges. They probably have a lot to do with the limitations of the modelers and mold-making processes GW faced back in the old days. So, for continuity's sake we are still stuck with a rifle that's the width of a large cereal box.
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