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Hespithe 04-27-08 05:58 AM

Developing a more 'mature' gaming system.
Hello all.

For those who have spoken with me recently, you may have noticed that I am a bit disenchanted with the direction our hobby has taken. This is largely in part to the actions of my primary supplier, Games Workshop, though I have seen the same issues influencing other suppliers as well. I'd not like to leave this hobby, as I think that not only is the hobby an excellent and worthwhile endeavor for me, but I think that the vast majority of the people involved are well worth the knowing. The direction that the companies supplying the hobby have taken should not have such an adverse affect on my enjoyment.

These are some of my 'gripes' concerning the 40K game system and its support...

Inconsistent focus - Frequent change of direction from combat to ranged to vehicle to infantry oriented focus has caused the game to maintain a state of imbalance over multiple editions. While some editions have come close, none have hit the mark, and current trends seem to step even further.

Lack of Good Faith - Purchases made in good faith (i.e. consumers are assured that their purchases will be worthwhile) are often made false by suppliers. Squats are no longer. Traitor Guard are no longer. Genestealer Cults are no longer. Various units have been sold, but never supported, even when hinted by those in authority that they are 'worthwhile' to competitive gamers.

Introverted Leadership - The games and activities involved in our hobby are all directly related. Sales of a collection of models needs to be tied in directly to the rules systems that support said models. The system is a very large part of the hobby and should not be used solely as a marketing strategy for the latest batch of model releases. By ignoring the requests for balance, and instead altering the game system to fit the latest marketing push, the suppliers have failed to look outside their own immediate goals to view the hobby consumers' wishes. Stock Holders will better benefit from the hobby by promoting all aspects of the hobby. By supporting only a single aspect, the balance shifts dramatically, and eventually forces momentum into a downward spiral. Excuses abound, but the truth as I see it is that the personnel in charge of determining the needs of the hobby community have become somewhat introverted, making decisions on their own, and failing to heed the requests of their consumers.

In this thread, I would like to actually hear what we want as gamers and hobbyists. Not only what kind of models or physical aspects of the hobby we want to see, but also what aspects of the hobby we see as lacking that are not represented by models and books.

I'd also appreciate ideas and suggestions on what may make a respectable gaming system for those persons who work for a living and are responsible enough to not fall for GW's White Dwarf propaganda.

What is it you really want, and how can we make it happen?

Maybe, by the end, we will be responsible for forming a 'balanced' gaming system. Maybe we will only achieve a few odd posts. Maybe our gaming suppliers will eventually listen to people who have ideas and are willing to try and improve the hobby. Or, maybe it's just 1AM and poor Hespithe is just sleep deprived...

pyroanarchist 04-27-08 06:30 AM

Any ideas on the direction you want to head with this Hes? I'd be more than willing to help out, or at the least be a sounding board that you could bounce idea's off of and I would give input. Just seems pretty vague at the moment and I'm also sleep deprived.

Are you looking to come up with a system similar to 40k, or more like WHFB with 40k elements? Are you looking to use your 40k models for this system, or different models/races entirely (bring back the squats!)? Any ideas on how in-depth you want to make this system (40k size rule book, smaller)? Or are you just wanting to "house rule" using the 40k system as the basis?

I'll definately put some thought into this, and if you let us know the basics of what you want out of the system I'd definately be more than happy to help out. I'm really having some problems with GW right now as well. I own too many out-dated models that are entirely worthless to my armies now-a-days, and even a lot of my old conversions don't fit the rules anymore. Not to mention 5th edition. If the defensive weapons change as leaked I'll have to re-model all of my predators again! Anyway, if I keep thinking about that stuff I'll end up ranting forever, so like I said, let me know some basics and I'll help out as best as I am able.

NinjaK 04-27-08 06:36 AM

If there were to be a new game coming out I would like to see tables for creating custom HQ's like how the space marines can create custom traits. at the moment I can't think of any other gameplay changes... but as for the models I would like to see a dramatic drop in price for these lumps of plastic that we like so much that probably cost 50 cents to make. The direction Space Hulk was going in seems like a good idea.. if it starts out as a board game and then gets expanded upon then I believe more people would buy it and less people would think it is related to Dungeons and Dragons. Right now walking into a GW store seems like I'm getting charged for oxygen consumption. $15 for 3 paintbrushes... I bought 5 from target for $1.25 and they work great.

I played a game called Legions of Steel once and it came with a board that looked like puzzle pieces and you cold put them together however you wanted. It would rock if it came with a set board to be expanded upon or replaced completely by 3d terrain. Lol back to brainstorming..

Siege 04-27-08 06:58 AM

Maybe it's because I'm relatively new to 40K, I know 2 years and a 1000 odd dollars is nothing compared to what a lot of gamers have put into this hobby, but I don't think there is really anything wrong with 40K. I don't play any other wargames, so I guess I can't make any kind of comparison, but if there is another system out there that is better than 40K, tell me what it is.

pyroanarchist 04-27-08 09:16 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong Hes, but I don't think that the main problem is with the 40k system. It is a solid system that is good, but just not quite dead on. I think a bigger issue that some of us vets have is the fact that we have bought many many (I can't even explain how many) models that are now null and void because GW has changed the rules that drastically. I've pumped well over $300 US into Daemons for my numerous Chaos forces (38 Blood letters, 8 Daemonettes, 6 Plague Bearers, 4 Juggernauts, Great Unclean One, Blood Thirster, Keeper of Secrets, and the Tzeentch greater daemon who's name escapes me at the moment damned 3rd shift) and now they aren't even a part of my army. Sure, I can go out and buy a Daemon's Codex in a bit and buy a bunch more daemon models so that I can field a Daemon army, but thats not why I bought the models. We, as gamers, expect a product that will hold up to the test of time if we are putting that kind of time and money into it. We expect our purchases and conversion work to still be a part of the game a few years down the road. With new codices I've had to remodel quite a few things. They got rid of Juggernaughts as a troop quite a while back, so I took all of mine, pulled the Zerkers off, remodelled them, and made them into Zerker aspiring champs with Axes of Khorne. Now Axes of Khorne don't exist so I have to count them as power weapons. Many Emperors Children players used sonic weaponry on thier tanks and Dreadnoughts, and now all of that conversion work is wasted. Alpha Legion players bought or converted up loads of Cultists and they don't even exist in the 40k universe anymore.

I know I'm only citing Chaos issues, but that is because that is what has hit closest to home for me and what I know the most about. Similar things have happened across the races over time. Any vet has old models that are now sitting on a shelf or sold because they can't really be used as intended. Squats are a great example. Squats were the Space Dwarves. They used to be a race in 40k and now they don't exist. I've got some old Ork models with Lascannons... take a look through the Ork codex and see if any of them can carry Lascannons. I think the bigger issue here is that GW shouldn't ever make any model that they have supported and sold to the consumer completely obsolete. I understand removing a model from the line because they replace it with a newer version, but making entire armies obsolete is not cool. Anyone who has played an army for years and grown to love it just to have it shat on by GW harbours a bit of a grudge about it. Imagine that GW just decided that Firewarriors don't exist anymore and you're stuck with a couple squads of them. Wouldn't you be a bit annoyed to say the least?

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate GW. I still play 40k regularly, although I enjoy modelling and painting more than I do playing most of the time anymore. I probably won't ever stop playing 40k because it was my first table top miniature game and I have a great fondness for the game and especially the fluff. However, I am sick and tired of my army being changed and having to remodel or buy new models to continue to play it. Hope that explains it, and I hope I'm on the right track here Hes, either way, thats the reason I'm a little sick of 40k.

Hespithe 04-27-08 01:47 PM

I think most of you guys have a fair idea of what I'm on about, but have not quite hit the mark.

Yes, I think that 40K is actually a pretty good system. Yes, I think that GW is slowly moving in the wrong direction with this system. Yes, I think that GW's priorities and not their systems are the true problem. No, I do not want to copy a GW system or homebrew my own version of 40K.

I'd like to start from scratch. It can be as simple as a combined era game, something like 40K and WHFB together, or something more streamlined. That would depend on what those of you who give serious thought to your hobby time, effort, dollars, and enjoyment decide is the proper direction.

With the proper team providing input and posneg feedback, I'm more than willing to spend hours a day, everyday, for the next year to make this work as a standard rules system that WE can enjoy, and that will not need to be tweaked to the point that the game becomes frustrating for those who have invested into it. Rules Lawyers and play-testers will be needed in the mix, as well as those who enjoy both 'friendly' and competitive gaming.

I like the 'truly customizable' HQ option, though would this be a single model, a unit, or a series of units? What would you guys prefer, keeping in mind the games you like and what about those games really makes you happy to play them. Also keep in mind the concepts you do NOT care for, and ways to eliminate them or lessen their impact on the system.

As far as love/hate for GW... that does not exist. I just feel that GW is losing my interest by setting priorities that do not include my interests within this hobby. GW as a major supplier must assume that it is 'their' hobby, and they have stated thus in their WD publication. That is simply not true, though they do 'lead' the hobby in many aspects. Tabletop Miniatures Gaming is much bigger than GW, and the leader of the pack is falling back. I'd like to make a system that attracts older gamers to a solid, customizable, and truly enjoyable gaming experience.

I'd rather do it with the help of my friends here, and appreciate any that is offered.

Please keep in mind that this is not intended to be a debate over my opinions of GW or on gaming as a whole. This thread is for the development/brainstorming for our own gaming system.

32BitHero 04-27-08 05:54 PM

My main problem is that GW has a GREAT opprotunity to create the best miniatures game in the world. They have the backing and the staff and the resources but they fail to balance it. They dance around their ultimate system to make more money. AND take all mine....

As far as creating a new system goes I am here to discuss anything possible to help!

I love the idea of a customizable HQ unit and i think they could be a single model a unit or a series of units. Maybe depending on gameplay style or race?

Some ideas ive had is to create a system that incorporates ground battles and space battles? I would love to see a game have easier and more in depth campaign scenarios, but with a cheap introduction fee. Rules for the units on their respective boxes??? Ex. Open up your box of Archangel Jumptroops and Voila I see all their rules. Codexs sold online for 1$ like the game Urban Warfare. FREE updates similar to LOTRO..... I want a living codex and rulebook online.

Combat- DIVERSE... ranges and close and magic combat.... i wish their was something more but i cant think i woke up 10 min ago lol

How about no magic? Maybe the magic in the game is by manipulating fear of the enemy?

Cheap starter boxes with the rules in them. I cant express how mush i want this i would instantly start a game if this were the case.

Make it very customizable. Make a rulebook and haev people use their various models from different games until you could produce your own? (Its damn expensive)

Have lots of units and races and cool looking minis is incredibly important and have them all PLASTIC.

Hespithe I think you could do this and im willing to help with anything hit me up on msn if u want to brainstorm- [email protected]

MAKE it FLUFFY i love the fluff and i think its a great part of a game

32BitHero 04-27-08 06:02 PM

Also a question If their is something really excellenet that stands out to us in a game should we mention it here and we can use it as a base or would you rather keep this absoluteley unique? I always work of already successful things but it might be nice to be brand new

pyroanarchist 04-27-08 07:23 PM

Awesome Hes, I think it is great that you are willing to invest that much time and effort into this project. Like I said above, I'll help anyway that I can. I'll start with likes and dislikes about the 40k system and maybe with that we can all build from there.

-Fluff/Storyline (I know this kind of stuff is hard to come up with, but we have very creative people here at Heresy and I'm sure they would help)
-Turn Phases
-Different mission objectives
-Wargear to customize your squads
-FoC (possibly with changes, but I don't think any TT game would work well without an FoC)

5th Edition rumours that I like:
-Running - it only makes sense. If a squad can go 6'' on assault it should be able to opt out of shooting to go 6''
-Single Vehicle Damage Chart - the -2 if it is a glancing shot is a pretty cool idea, definately simple and effective
-Ramming - In a real world scenario it seems that if it is a last ditch effort, or your tank is just that much bigger, you could ram a vehicle to destroy it.
-Duck and Cover - choosing to be pinned to recieve a bonus to your cover save

-Locked in CC - I think if any group was in CC with something that they had no ability to hurt that they would try to fall back and regroup with new weapons. This could be set up so you could choose to leave combat, but may end up taking casualties in the process.
-Base to Base - I think of a CC fight as a whirling combat. If you're buddy next to you killed the 2 guys in front of you don't you think you would push forward and still take your attacks if there are any left alive? I think CC would be better if when assaulted a squad would move in and all of the models would be in combat.
-Champion sniping in CC - I think any HQ should have the option of a retinue who are willing to give thier lives for thier leader, therefore any wounds taken on the HQ can be taken by the retinue instead (similar to SW's actual wolves that used to accompany HQ's, or the way a Chaos lord could take Chaos hounds as a retinue to protect him, only with people of the same race, or even possibly beasts for some races)
-Tanks moving and shooting - I don't know why they ever came up with the firing one weapon plus defensive weapons stuff. A tank should be able to unload no matter what. The movement should drop their accuracy instead of not being able to fire the weapons at all. Granted there are some vehicles (basilisk) that need to be stationary to be loaded and fired, so some vehicles could have special rules if there is anything similar, but the average tank should be able to shoot on the move.

Thats all I've come up with so far, but I'm still sleep deprived. I really like the idea of a fully customizable HQ. Maybe some wargear would be available across the board no matter the race (due to stealing it in a previous combat) I'm sure that there would have to be limitations. I was thinking along the lines of choosing to steal weapons from one particular race only because your army has fought them so much. With that set up you would have your own options for your HQ because of your race, but he and his retinue/champs may each have 1 item from 1 other races wargear selection because they looted the corpses of their kills.

I love the Idea of online free update codecis (or their equivalent) and rule books. That way if there were any noticed problems with the system the staff could edit it and the world would see it the next day, no months of waiting. It would be a nice option to sell rulebooks available for order with a waiting period, in case someone wanted an actual book instead of a notebook full of printed paper. You could even add artwork and fluff to this edition that isn't in the online version to give the buyers a little bonus for contributing.

I don't like the idea of rule sets in the box. These could end up outdated by the time the box leaves the shelf, plus your codex would be made up of a bunch of loose sheets of paper which would inevitably get crumpled/lost.

If you do get it to the production phase an option of painted or unpainted may be a big hit. I know most TT games that I see that come pre-painted don't look very good, but some people just want to play the game and don't enjoy the modelling/painting aspect. If there is an option it may draw more players. Granted the pre-painted models wouldn't look as good as a well painted army, but that would be consumers choice at that point.

32BitHero 04-27-08 08:04 PM

I definetely didnt think about the problems with the box idea pyro (you might be sleep deprived but i just woke up : )

I like all of pyros likes and the 5th edition rumours sound great

I think different races should move at different speeds not just 6" for everyone one

Stealing stuff sounds great maybe salvaging from the dead??? It would change the face of a battle if your scouts surrounded an mg emplacement and took the guns as long as they didnt do anything to damage them (ie grenades) Then you would have an extra mg with no points cost to you just because ou were smart. That sounds like fun and tactically satisfying.

Also dead bodies should stay on the battlefield and tanks too they change how a battlefield plays over the course of a game. A battlefield should be constantly evolving not just troops running at easchother shooting

As far as Close combat goes i think locking people is incredibly tactically fun but you are right it doesnt make sense maybe half movement and possible casualties? That would make alot more sense.

Tanks need to take some penalty if they move i like giving hit bonuses and negatives depending on what a unit does. Ducking should give positives moving should give negatives. Cover should be a bigger deal and so should being stationairy.

I'm glad you like the online codex idea.

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