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Coder59 09-26-10 12:13 AM

30k Vs 40k
 
I think i mentioned this months ago in a post and the thought just occured to me again.

How do the marines of the Crusade/Heresy era rack up alongside the 41st Millenium mob?

I'm curious since the marines in the HH series seem to be depicted with far less mental discipline than the 41st millenium bunch.
What do you guys think? Did the heresy and scouring make the Marines tougher? Do the Chapters being far more selective in their recruits come out as superior combatants to the Legions who could count on massive numbers to achieve victory?

Angel of Blood 09-26-10 12:22 AM

I don't full understand what you mean? you think the 30k era marines are weaker?

If anything i think the 30k marines are better, they all seem to be alot more free thinkers and generally better personalitys, joking around alot more. Primarchs inspiring them and a walking Emperor aswell. Now they all seem to go through far more rigorous pycho-indoctrination when they become marines. And now are all venrate the god-emperor as opposed to just loyal to the mortal Emperor back in the 30k days (word bearers aside)

locustgate 09-26-10 12:25 AM

The HH marines seemed more human, than the 40k marines, and stronger since they had purrer geneseeds. However from what I understand many of the loyal legions had worst armor than the 41st loyalists.

Coder59 09-26-10 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 738757)
I don't full understand what you mean? you think the 30k era marines are weaker?

If anything i think the 30k marines are better, they all seem to be alot more free thinkers and generally better personalitys, joking around alot more. Primarchs inspiring them and a walking Emperor aswell. Now they all seem to go through far more rigorous pycho-indoctrination when they become marines. And now are all venrate the god-emperor as opposed to just loyal to the mortal Emperor back in the 30k days (word bearers aside)

And that's my point. Not only is the Psycho conditioning far superior but they seem to be used to achieving things without having a huge Legion to back them up. Not to mention that veneration of the God Emperor seems to give them a near bottomless core of inner strength to keep going. They don't seem bothered about understanding everything so much as working out how to make it die!
As for the joking about and laughing a lot I'm not sure the Marines in the 41st Millenium lose that. Ragnar Blackmane, Uriel Ventris et al, they all seem pretty capable of joking and talking with others. Hell Uriel is probably the most human marine I've ever read apart from Loken.
Anyway. My point is the 41st guys just see a lot tougher to me, the chapters seem to take a LOT more care in their selection of aspirants, they seem to take far longer over the training process, and they have a much harder more ruthless edge to them.

I don't mean in mass combat. Obviously 10'000 marines will trump 100. I mean in the quality of the warriors themselves.

locustgate 09-26-10 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coder59 (Post 738802)
And that's my point. Not only is the Psycho conditioning far superior but they seem to be used to achieving things without having a huge Legion to back them up. Not to mention that veneration of the God Emperor seems to give them a near bottomless core of inner strength to keep going. They don't seem bothered about understanding everything so much as working out how to make it die!
As for the joking about and laughing a lot I'm not sure the Marines in the 41st Millenium lose that. Ragnar Blackmane, Uriel Ventris et al, they all seem pretty capable of joking and talking with others. Hell Uriel is probably the most human marine I've ever read apart from Loken.
Anyway. My point is the 41st guys just see a lot tougher to me, the chapters seem to take a LOT more care in their selection of aspirants, they seem to take far longer over the training process, and they have a much harder more ruthless edge to them.

I don't mean in mass combat. Obviously 10'000 marines will trump 100. I mean in the quality of the warriors themselves.

From what I understand the 40k SM armor has more/better abilities, and is even more like a 2nd skin. The crusade era helmets made it like is was not even there, while the more modern ones increased it.

Angel of Blood 09-26-10 01:21 AM

I wouldn't say they were tougher. The Legions conquered entire star systems and could cleanse a planet with little support from the guard. The Chapters on the other hand need alot of support to go to war, using vast amounts of Imperial Guard and/or other allies to take the main brunt of battles while they perform specfic tasks. The pyscho conditioning is a bad thing to me, it just makes them less human and so much more two dimesnional in the majority of cases. I wouldn't say that they had less inner strength either, i've not read any instance in the HH series so far of the marines giving up or running out of steam, the living emperor AND their primarchs drives them forward. Just look at Istvaan III.

And on the point of achieving things without a entire legion backing them up, goes back to the point above that instead of a couple thousand astartes they now have millions of guard troops to fulfil the role instead. There havent really been any instances in the HH to compare them to 40k marines who are now facing chaos deamons, tyranids etc all the time.

Doelago 09-26-10 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 738813)
The Chapters on the other hand need alot of support to go to war, using vast amounts of Imperial Guard and/or other allies to take the main brunt of battles while they perform specfic tasks.

Not in my opinion... You could take the Assault on Black Reach as an example, a company of Ultramarines fought against a whole Waaagh!nwith barely any support...

BlackGuard 09-26-10 04:17 PM

I'd have to cast my support behind the Crusade-Era marines. Excluding the Primarchs, the Emperor, or the psyco-indoctrination -- the Marines of an era previously were more innovative, and less restricted in their combat doctrines.

The 41st Millenium Chapters, most of them follow the Codex Astartes and declare it a holy text. The Crusade-Era Marines did not have such rigorous standards, and their combat doctrines, while specialized, were still not set and subject to innovation in battle.

Angel of Blood 09-26-10 04:26 PM

True and for that i have a bit of an issue with Assault on Black Reach. Not read it myself but how big was the Waaagh, it cant have been a big one or massively powerful as otherwise that would be absurd. Almost every other significant waagh involves multiple chapters, not companys but entire chapters, titan legions and masses of imperial guard. For 1 company of Ultramarines to defeat a waagh on their own just seems a bit over-glorifying.

And exactly, the codex astartes just seems to limit the tactical flare and specialisation of the Legions in the crusade era. Back in 30k all the legions tended to have specific roles and combat styles which made them infinitly more interesting. It's why in 40k i prefer the chapters who go against the codex such as the Wolves as it just makes them more interesting.

Doelago 09-26-10 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 739310)
Not read it myself but how big was the Waaagh, it cant have been a big one or massively powerful as otherwise that would be absurd.

If I remember correctly it was ca. 50 000 orks with a bunch of custom shootas that penetrated Leman Russ and Power Armor with ease...


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