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-   -   Versus...Teclis (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/warhammer-tactics/71472-versus-teclis.html)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw 04-05-11 02:03 AM

To be honest, punching the other player in the face, or otherwise verbally/pyshically assaulting them, normally necessitates Teclis dissapearing from the table, followed by the rest of the HE army.

FLAWLESS VICTORY.

Vaz 04-05-11 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsonlyme (Post 928633)
Thats certainly a very powerful uni, as WoC player is going to have a field day with that, drop some hellcannon on the unit and finish it off with a unit of Tzeentch chosen lead by a Tzeentch BSB with 3+ wardsave and hoping for +1T and +1A or wardsave. Thats or a unit of 20 Tzeentch warriors with HW+SH lead by my sorcerer with sword of anti heroes (so thats 5 S7 attacks).

You're taking units of 20 in a competitive list, and expect to beat a Teclis list?

Weren't you trying to put across how bad MY army was?

Quote:

Meanwhile the sorcerer has been using dwellers on the rest of the HW army or stealing the augment spell to boost the Tzeentch warriors/chosen.
I'm sure you'll find a use for the Lore of Metal/Death somewhere in your Army against a 5+ Highest infantry armour save, which he'll scroll of hoeth, while you get through the average 7 Dispel Dice with a +4. The main unit is immune to Magic, so no Dwellers, Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, no Doom and Darkness, no Caress of Lanish/Fate of Bjuna, no debuffs/maluses from magic whatsoever - so they might as well go full attack, leaving Metal or Death as the stand out choice against WoC.



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Tim/Steve 04-05-11 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackspine (Post 928961)
stone of spite explosions aren't magical.
They're just explosions. His equipment just goes poof.

Really, besides wading down field against Dweller spam, that's about all beasts have.

Its a bound spell... and banner of the world dragon ignores the affects of all spells.
Just because its AOE and doesnt directly cause wounds doesnt get round the stupid banner.

The only way that a spell of any sort can cause damage to a unit with the banner of the world dragon is if its some sort of buff on another unit.


TBH I agree with Lord Sven... Teclis is too broken to be taken, and if he is then the whole game just focusses on him. My HE army might be relagated toa cupboard but Teclis was there long before... I used him once or twice then found my conscience.

itsonlyme 04-05-11 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaz (Post 929155)
You're taking units of 20 in a competitive list, and expect to beat a Teclis list?

Weren't you trying to put across how bad MY army was?


My unit of 19 Tzeentch warriors comes in at 374pts, your unit of trolls comes in at 1035pts, clearly these are exactly the same thing :shok: And yes I do expect to beat Teclis and have every time I have played him.

Quote:

I'm sure you'll find a use for the Lore of Metal/Death somewhere in your Army against a 5+ Highest infantry armour save, which he'll scroll of hoeth, while you get through the average 7 Dispel Dice with a +4. The main unit is immune to Magic, so no Dwellers, Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, no Doom and Darkness, no Caress of Lanish/Fate of Bjuna, no debuffs/maluses from magic whatsoever - so they might as well go full attack, leaving Metal or Death as the stand out choice against WoC.
Strange how no one uses metal on Teclis, then again people I play don't tailor lists (bar one guy ), still I have had to fight against HE before and actually you make use of metal. Final transmutation, transmutation of lead, glittering robe, enchanted blades of abian.

Your right he can stop a magic phase, use his scroll of Hoeth on his own spell (which I used 3rd eye on) which I just relearn next magic phase anyways. Like I said I will happily use his own magic against the rest of his army while dropping hellcannons on his biggest unit. Once you reach combat his BSB is not a problem to deal with, T3 and no next to no armour.

Spear are not the best bunker for Teclis, if you want a proper bunker for him then it has to be either PG or WL, even with ASF spearmen are not a problem for a WS5 S4 T4 3/5+ save unit, you seriously why do chaos warriors even need to debuff such a unit, you have two guys which can cause any real damage, the unit itself is going to struggle to do any real damage (still only strength 3).

Aramoro 04-05-11 08:51 AM

Teclis chooses his Lore before the game starts so he will always have the right Lore against you. Perhaps the Teclis players you're playing against simply aren't very good? Teclis has +5 to dispel with the Extra dice as well. It's tough to get past him.

itsonlyme 04-05-11 11:48 AM

You choose your lore in the army list, I have played against a few people who used lore of metal on him which is a real pain but as I said you can still use it to your advantage. My sorcerers also have a +5 to cast.

Vaz 04-05-11 12:55 PM

No. TECLIS CAN CHOOSE WHICH LORE BEFORE THE GAME STARTS.

I'm willing to say that bar bad luck on your opponents behalf, Warriors of Chaos in all of it's guises againsts Teclis (with perhaps the exception of Wulfrik attempting to murder him using Tongues - but that's tailoring, and Wulfrik is fairly shit even for a fighty hero of the calibre WoC can put out, so not advisable for an all comers list).

20 Warriors of Chaos loses a rank bonus with a single wound suffered.

As to how weak trolls are - I've got 2200pts gone into making that unit near untouchable for an all comers competetive meta game. Teclis fucks that up, by being able to choose his Lore before the game rather than in the Army List, and IF'ing anything.

As said, WoC have the weakest match up against Teclis -

Their base Elite units have the best armour save for Cavalry and Infantry available - meaning metal rapes, and also, each turn, your opponent chooses one of your unit, and then proceeds to remove, in your case, 6-7 models.

The Horde units are T3 with no low/no armour against a target with Reroll to hits, fight in multiple ranks (so you're typically up against 4-5 ranks of models fighting you), and capable of being buffed far more efficiently than you can nerf them.

Against Trolls, he can just bring out the Lore of Fire, capable of slapping out a Firestorm, or Burning Head. With MSU, you get less effectiveness from the Warshrines 4+ Ward or the MR2 from Collar of Khorne, while Horde means He can choose Death instead of Purple Sun you're I1-2 Units (although the rest of the lore is near useless).

If you try to counter spell him, he has the Banner of World Dragon, a Scroll of Hoeth which has a chance of stopping you from casting it again, (rendering Third Eye near useless), while he has a 5+ to dispel - it's easier to dispel than it is to cast, as you can choose what's useful and what's not. Not to mention the average 6-7 Dispel Dice average, AND an Annulian Crystal to reduce your average casting dice to 6 and boost his dispel dice to 7-8.

And I think you're discounting a Spear Bunker too easily. With Metal, Teclis can Rust the unit, with Death he can reduce your toughness/strength (with IF as well possibly), and then stack on Fate of Bjuna on your caster. Then factor in that you're testing on a Ld8 against the possibility of Fear causing units potentially reducing your WS1.

So - all that considered - you'd be up against 5 ranks of reroll to hit S3 against WS1 S3 T3 infantry.

Add in the fact that they're cheap as fuck.

No offence, mate, but have you ever played ANYTHING remotely competitive. I'm talking about a copy paste list off the internet used in a GW Store/LGS, but something along the lines of Ardboyz?



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Aramoro 04-05-11 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsonlyme (Post 929432)
You choose your lore in the army list, I have played against a few people who used lore of metal on him which is a real pain but as I said you can still use it to your advantage. My sorcerers also have a +5 to cast.

As I said, Teclis chooses his Lore before the Game, not in the list. your Casting is largely irrelevant, with his +D3 Dispel dice and +5 on his dispels he forces you to dump extra dice into casting your spells to get them off. He's a bargain for what he does. Like I say your High elf players might just be terrible, Teclis can act as a crutch for a bad player to dig himself out of a hole.

itsonlyme 04-05-11 04:09 PM

itsonlyme is great and has no trouble killing Teclis...
1 page rant cut to 1 line, my work here is done
T/S

Tim/Steve 04-05-11 08:57 PM

Right, here's the 1 warning this thread is going to receive:
- keep it adult
- keep it on topic

We want to hear about successful strategies for beating Teclis, even ways that HE players try to counter these anti-teclis strategies... but bickering about who has the better army is unhelpful, and to be honest fucking boring.

T/S

itsonlyme 04-05-11 11:59 PM

After speaking with Tim/steve here are all the things I can think off to deal with Teclis.

As a WoC player if you dealing with the immune to magic horde of spearmen you can:

1) Use chariots, even a single chariot ramming into can cause a lot of pain while directing a hell of a lot of attacks at him, 4 WS5 S5 (6 attacks with MoK) as well as your two steads, if you concerned with a character like Caradryan using the move through rule then you simply combo charge with a unit of hounds. If you not ( I wouldn't be) then its stilll T5, 3+ save 4 wounds on average he will only wound it 1.25 times before the D3 so really with only S3 attacks slapping into it unless the opponent is lucky you should be around for another round. MoN could also be handy so he is only hitting you on a 4+.

2) Warshrine -basically the same idea as a chariot expect its T6. 4+ save and a 4+ wardsave, its bashing out 5 WS5 S4 attacks.

3) Chaos knight strike force - 5 chaos knights are on 200pts so if they die yet again but manage to kill teclis then its no lose, with his magic phase gone its well worth the effort, with the hight armour save and bucket loads of attacks they should have a couple of turns in them.

4) hellcannon - Need I say more really, strength 10 rocklobber, if the unit only has a BSB in it then it can be worth the risk of using it as a combat monster, this way you can aim its damage directly at teclis. 5 WS4 S5 attacks + D6 stomp attacks is very nasty and you may well be able to take down teclis and the BSB leaving this rather unit of elves open to the more dangerous things.

Something to keep in mind when play against people who use these massive death stars, with so many points invested in a single unit you can out deploy and maneuver them, Chaos hounds and a brilliant unit for this. Usually I use 2-3 units of chaos hounds in 2400pts and these have so many roles they are one of the best units for 30pts. Tim/steve asked me how you actually get you elite unit of doom into the deathstar of point retention. Hounds of course, you use them to block movement of his support units and position them so if he decided to overrun he will out of position or you can use these to protect flanks from counter charges. If you get the angel right he will have to reform giving you another turn to work your magic on the unit.

I know people mentioned Lore of metal but I would be far more concerned if he had lore of shadow and was casting mind razor on that unit of spearmen, it would just negate all the advantage a unit of chaos warriors has over spearmen and he would more than likely being causing more wounds than I had models. Also Pit of shades caste after the base spell really cause issue for any unit, chaos warriors can be down to I2, no save, no wardsave, instant death, that is far more concerning that shearing doom or -1 save.

Aside the above methods assuming he is a unit with banner of world dragon (at the end of the day I have seen a lot of HE lists that won't take a BSB and Teclis in games under 2.5k) you have the more obvious methods of dealing with him, lore of death sniping, throwing big fireball at his unit, you can use things like Lore of slaanesh combined with fire for good effect (flame cage + titillating delusions). curse of the leaper (which could be rather fun combined with a lore of death spell). You go down the route of Hellcannon + Doom and dark or Pandemonium to just try and panic them out of range of magic (depending on turn). Pandemonium also has the added bonus of not only stripping about the leadership of all characters in the list but knocking off powerdice in the next phase, its not the best spell since sliced spread but it has uses.

blackspine 04-06-11 01:18 AM

I'm not sold on the fact that he's immune to the stone of spite. But, lets say he is in the common set up of 'world dragon banner of not even trying'.

An option Beastmen have is throw as many razorgors as we can at him and allocate all attacks. Hopefully, on 2 sides to hurt him more.
Granted HE ASF/re-roll means these guys most likely won't live to hit, but it's a chance and not only that, it means that my units are running down field helter-skelter to get into combat if he decides to nuke these guys.

aaaaaaand that's about it.

Seeing we have no shooting.
Ambush is not seriously competitive, and if the ambushing unit landed behind him, they would turn and Dwellers the unit, then break them in panic...I'm at a loss

itsonlyme 04-06-11 09:01 AM

You could try a Razorgor chariot instead with more wounds, better and more attacks that can be aimed at a single point.

Aramoro 04-06-11 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackspine (Post 930284)
I'm not sold on the fact that he's immune to the stone of spite. But, lets say he is in the common set up of 'world dragon banner of not even trying'.

Sadly he is immune to it under Banner of the World Dragon. But that is a 2 edged sword that, it does mean no buffing to the unit at all. No Mindrazor , no Skin to Stone etc. Or of course he could just dispel the Stone of Spite.

Teclis is a tricky little bugger, we don't tend to play very high value games so no World Dragon so my solution is usually Damsel + Power Scroll + Dwellers , he's only S2.

Tim/Steve 04-06-11 11:00 AM

Well I mentioned this tactic to itsonlyme earlier and said it was so hard to do that I wouldn't post it here... but I thought I may as well regardless.

Best way my ogres have of beating Teclis and his unit of death (probably the same for beastmen and a few others) is getting simaltaneous flank charges.

Charge both flanks, or a flank and a rear and the unit is toast: If your in both flanks you'll be looking at ~10 attacks from spearmen/champ and probably another 3 from Caradryan (or similar hero), while you pump out all your normal attacks and have a huge SCR bonus- you'll win every round and the HEs cant reform to bring their spears to bear... but they'll never break at Ld10 with a BSB reroll. You'll have to kill the whole unit (doen't take too long for my ogres.. other armies would struggle though).

I assume that Teclis would count as being in combat if his unit is engaged... not too sure on that though.

Problem is this tactic has some major flaws- its very hard to manouver into both flanks, especially with Teclis blasting you with spells, and doubly especially since a clever HE player would just turn to face 1 and let the other hit the rear... then he's bringing his entire unit's attacks to bear. You also have to be careful of being flanked yourself as you'll have to leave yourself wide open to get this to work.
This is where a VC player with a couple units of zombies can be laughing... but you'll have to try to outmagic Teclis to really get it working (and we all know how hard that is).


Alternatively you could try what I often do with my WE- send in a small sacrificial typoe unit to the deathstar's flank: I normally charge with wardancers (often with a hero wardancer) or dryads- I'm not looking to win the fight, just to have a shot at some of the the HE characters (caradyan losing to my noble wardancer is quite common).
All you are really looking to do is to slow up the HEs- if your little unit can stay in the fight (by winning or not breaking) then the HEs cant move for a turn, while if you break you're hoping the HE player pursues and puts himself out of position.

Obviously I do this with WE, so I'm pincusushioning HEs the whole time, but getting an extra turn to fire at other units or a couple extra turns for baiting the deathstar out of position is always very useful (and 5-10 extra dead spearmen isnt a bad start at knobbling the unit).

itsonlyme 04-06-11 12:11 PM

Yeah thats a pretty good idea however you are going to need free units to actually do it, Yhetee's with M7 and -1 to hit would be very good at this, two units of 8 bulls would be very nice just for the 8 impact hits. OK will struggle the most but they are well overdue for a new book.

Tim/Steve 04-06-11 09:32 PM

You'll never see yhetees in an 8th ed OK army... not a decent one anyway. They're 30pts more then bulls (almost double) for +1S, +1M -1 to hit and strider. On the other hand bulls have AP, have impact hits, can have command and can be buffed...
I also wish impact hits were that good, but you only get impacts from the front rank, but a 2*4 unit of bulls would give you 4 S5 impacts, which is nice, but not game changing.

Its incredibly hard to get into both flanks on the same turn... if you can do it then you'll beat almost anything, but its should be a passive focus rather then outright tactic: if you see the opportunity to manage it go for it, but starting the game with it as your main plan will only lead to disappointment.
If you were planning on trying something like this its probably easier to use something like chariots or blocks of fast but cheap rubbish (eg 10 chaos warhounds) while you manouver a ranked unit to replace/join them and win the fight.

I think I could manage it with my dryads for WE much more easily then with ogres, but then if Im playing WE Im not that scared of HE...

itsonlyme 04-06-11 09:57 PM

Well its been ages since I played against OK and have no idea on the points cost, I just remember they had magical attacks and -1 to hit, also I said two units of 8 so thats 4 impact hits per unit (which is what I meant :p).

Agreed its very hard to pull off a combo charge like that but I think its easier when you are up against a unit that has invested half the armies points into it, its not like HE have masses of chaff they can deploy like other armies (even eagles are limited either via a comp or normal army selection to a degree).

I would have thought WE would be more scare by HE due to the lack of anything with static combat res and general lack of armour combined with low toughness.

Tim/Steve 04-06-11 11:06 PM

My We love to play against HE, and dont mind Teclis too much. I play MSU and have lots and lots of shooting, so I'm killing 5-15 spearmen off Teclis's unit each turn with shooting alone and Teclis's magic isn't doing much to me because I have no single big units for him to target... though he can start doing real damage if he takes something like lore of fire.

MSU is pretty effective against Teclis- it means that while he might be able to cast lots of spells each one can't affect that many models. Its better for him if he is buffing his own units... but then if the HE player is too used to just runnign a world dragon block he wont normally thinnk to just kick the BSB to another unit and have Teclis buff his own unit.

experiment 626 04-07-11 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 930592)

...This is where a VC player with a couple units of zombies can be laughing... but you'll have to try to outmagic Teclis to really get it working (and we all know how hard that is).

As a VC player, I can promise you that zombies are utterly out of the question... An intelligent player will simply throw every single attack possible at those zombies since their T2 means almost everything needs at worst a 3+ to wound.
Hell, skaven slaves outfight zombies 99.9% of the time! (which is sad to say the least - they should really be equals.)

Throwing zombies into a combat, even in the flank as supporters is simply handing easy CR to your opponent. (unless he's either a new player, has never once played against VC's, or is just a massive idiot!)

VC's best hope is;
a) a ghoul sling-shot unit w/wight king. Give him an extra hand weapon, other trickster's shard & nightshroud. Even caradryan fears that! Plus, those ghouls shred most high elf units short of PG or 3+/2+ stuff.

b) 5-6 dire wolves marched right in front of the unit & angled so that an over-run would be a very bad idea. It at least forces the high elf player to use-up his movment to re-form the unit and stops him charging.
Handy if Teclis is in a combat-centric unit like PG's or SM's, or even a non-world dragon banner'd spear unit, since you can keep him roughly in one place for a few turns. (gives you time to set-up flank/rear charges on his unit)

c) Black Coach. once it's ethereal, the only unit it really fears is one w/amulet of light. HE's almost never use fire or metal magic, so getting unit-wide magical attacks isn't that likely... (and if the unit has the world dragon banner, only the amulet of light can help it!)
it's 3+/4++ & T6 is just plain mean...


Overall though, Teclis is pretty much an auto-lose senario for VC's since he counters their biggest need...
Cheers!

Tim/Steve 04-07-11 08:56 PM

I was thinking with zombies more to have nothing except zombies in either side- the HEs won't be putting out more then 15 attacks each turn so you'll probably be losing about 10 zombies kiled and maybe another 10 from combat res (5 for each unit) assuming you dont do any damage.
Its not going to kill the HE unit, but it'll keep them locked in place unable to do much of anything.

Black coach does sound quite an effective way of dealing with Teclis's unit since it'll steal enemy power dice and stop Teclis being such a pain.
Problem with it going in to fight them will be SCR: I havent fought many BCs but do they dish out enough damage off charge to fight against a unit with 3 ranks, banner and BSB (possibly warbanner too)?

experiment 626 04-07-11 09:37 PM

The coach is pretty mean once it's maxed out; 3 S5/killing blow attacks from the wraith + 2 S4 killing blow from the nightmares.

Unless you really flub your rolls, you should still easily kill 3-4 HE's/phase, making a single invocation all that's needed to pin T's unit in place for a good wee bit.

Now if T's in a unit of PG, then all bets are off and you may as well just suck it up and prepare for the inevitable... Then refuse to play such douch-bags again untill they grow a pair and stop relying on such an obvious crutch to play!:P


Zombies are still a terribad idea. You need both flanks & at least 30/unit to even attempt such a play, and magicking that up + the charges is pretty much never going to happen.
WS1/S2/T2 troops w/unstable are a sheer joke. (even fear is completely pointless since it does jack-all!) They're worth it for a laugh and place some friendly bets, but in all seriousness, zombies need a re-write to actually be a playable option again...

Cheers!

itsonlyme 04-07-11 11:56 PM

Well VC could try a Varg, M9, good combat stats, hatred, regen, you could even use magic to try and get it into combat.

experiment 626 04-08-11 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsonlyme (Post 932670)
Well VC could try a Varg, M9, good combat stats, hatred, regen, you could even use magic to try and get it into combat.

Except for the fact it's I2, and only has T5 to protect it... Even a spear horde will demolish it before it can strike. Plus thanks to it's 40mm base, it will be suffering the attentions of a minimum of 8 enemies - 20 against a spear horde!!!

You'd need 2 cleverly positioned vargs to have a shot at taking teclis down with 'em... If the HE player is smart, he'll put teclis on the far point of a unit and then sandwich that flank with another unit so that at most, teclis gets into base-to-base with 2 enemies. (meaning only 4 models can attack him directly)

itsonlyme 04-08-11 07:35 AM

Your average spear horde will not demolish it before it gets to strike, its T5 with 4+ regen, if you had 20 spearmen attacking it they would do 1.25 wounds:

20 attacks -> 15 hits -> 2.5 wounds -> 1.25 regens passed

Even a character with a great weapon will only do 0.886 wounds:

3 attacks -> 2.66 hits -> 1.773 wounded causes -> 0.886 Regens passed.

This is of course assuming you don't cast VHD on it to give it ASF just so they lose rerolls.

This isn't to say every single time in you will get the result you want but statically it should be able to get and do the job dying the next turn, this also doesn't factor in things like fear, terror and what not. As as a combat hero and unit shouldn't kill them it has its 5 WS5 S5 hatred attacks + D6 stomp which it can easily use to kill both teclis and the combat hero.

Aramoro 04-08-11 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 932431)
Problem with it going in to fight them will be SCR: I havent fought many BCs but do they dish out enough damage off charge to fight against a unit with 3 ranks, banner and BSB (possibly warbanner too)?

They don't really do enough damage deal with Combat Res, low WS and attacks, but then if you're suiciding Teclis then you only need to do 3 wounds.

If you want to just suicide something into him a Varg is better because it's cheaper. Never use Zombies for anything because they're terrible at everything.

itsonlyme 04-08-11 03:49 PM

You could always try a unit of black knights lead by a wight king with sword of kings and banner of the barrows or the hatred banner, they would have the T and save to take a lot of what the spearmen can dish out with the king being able to kill teclis pretty easily (plus you have the KB attacks from the unit). The other option is replace the king with a vampire with blood drinker and red fury and give the unit the hatred banner. At least that way the vampire should be able to keep the unit from losing to many models even through crumble, then you can take some pot shots at any characters in the units with the KB lance.

experiment 626 04-08-11 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsonlyme (Post 932863)
Your average spear horde will not demolish it before it gets to strike, its T5 with 4+ regen, if you had 20 spearmen attacking it they would do 1.25 wounds:

20 attacks -> 15 hits -> 2.5 wounds -> 1.25 regens passed

Even a character with a great weapon will only do 0.886 wounds:

3 attacks -> 2.66 hits -> 1.773 wounded causes -> 0.886 Regens passed.

This is of course assuming you don't cast VHD on it to give it ASF just so they lose rerolls.

This isn't to say every single time in you will get the result you want but statically it should be able to get and do the job dying the next turn, this also doesn't factor in things like fear, terror and what not. As as a combat hero and unit shouldn't kill them it has its 5 WS5 S5 hatred attacks + D6 stomp which it can easily use to kill both teclis and the combat hero.

The big problem though is that caradryan is typically protecting teclis 99.9% of the time... (or at least where I play he's always present!) He'll swing before the spearmen (due to his higher 'I') and his flaming blade will very likely cause a wound, 2 if he's lucky... Then the spears finish it off now that regen's gone.
Certainly if the HE's don't finish it off, the varg will likely chomp teclis if he's in base-to-base, but 4 wounds and T5 won't really protect it - especially when caradryan is poking about.

Teclis is about the most horrific thing HE's can do to VC's, and in my local meta, he's all the rage for pretty much every high elf player sadly...
Only surefire way I've found to deal with him is to hope you can get a wight king w/nightshroud + other trickster's shard into him. Use your unit champ to accept the challenge, and then let kingy wail on teclis!!! (Nightshroud = win vs. enemy ASF)

Cheers!

itsonlyme 04-08-11 06:30 PM

Really depends on his position within the unit, if he is not in b2b with teclis then you can just charge with something like direwolves to hold him position so he cannot use the make way rule.

I typically play 2400pts and I really cannot see someone taking Teclis, a BSB and caradryan in the same army, thats like a 3rd of your army.

Nightshroud is certainly a very good thing vs HE and you could fit that one your wight king with sword of kings and a dragonbane gem (2+ wardsave against caradryan!).

experiment 626 04-08-11 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsonlyme (Post 933268)
I typically play 2400pts and I really cannot see someone taking Teclis, a BSB and caradryan in the same army, thats like a 3rd of your army.

Nightshroud is certainly a very good thing vs HE and you could fit that one your wight king with sword of kings and a dragonbane gem (2+ wardsave against caradryan!).

Well, my area is very, (as in it's the only way anyone really plays), 'ard boyz 'centric... Thus, you see all of the absolute worst filth imaginable in most games. (even styrofoam balls 'counting as' drop pods?!!) It's why a few of my friends & I have just abandoned the local stores and set-up our own group to play more enjoyable games.
It's quite common to see things like teclis + BSB (no world dragon banner) + caradryan all tucked into either a large sea guard horde or else a big PG unit, even at just 2500pts... Add a proper buff spell to the main unit, and then let teclis loose!

If the HE guys know they're going up against the big killer spells, they'll then take the world dragon banner - but those spells are a little too risky for VC's to abuse really.

Cheers!

itsonlyme 04-09-11 12:56 PM

Without banner of the world dragon the unit really is open to some pain, I mean how many armies have template ranged shoots? Rock lobbers, hellcannons, mortars, all of which combined with bow fire, RXB's and handguns will make short work of a T3 unit. Ontop of that you have things like Lore of life, lore of Tzeentch, lore of slaanesh, little orc lore, lore of fire, lore of shadow. All of these can deal with such a unit, with fire you have big fireball, burning head, piercing bolts, flame cage, flame storm. Tzeentch you have gateway and treason, slaanesh you have Ecstatic seizures, titillating delusions, Nurgle you have curse of leper (imagine that combined with lore of shadow).

Thats the main issue with this eggs in one basket style of play, it just takes a single good roll and suddenly its next to impossible for you to win, even with banner of the world dragon with the increased power of template weapons you can deal so much damage to the unit before it reaches combat having ASF isn't going to help much when you only have a couple of ranks. Their are also so many cheap high damage out units about that it isn't hard to kamikaze something into the unit to take out a character like teclis or the BSB with little to no protection.

caradryan is great to protect him unless someone has a dragonbane gem, dragon helm of even dragon armour hell he's even going to struggle with Tzeentch heroes with easy access to a 3+ wardsave. Then you have items like sword of anti-heroes, any character that drives into that units (what about a arch-lector) is going to be getting +3 attacks at +3 strength, imagine a chaos sorcerer in a unit with banner of rage, 6 WS5 S7 attacks a turn.

Also you have to look at what else would realistically be in the army if half the points is sitting in one unit, even at 8pts a spearmen isn't cheap and I imagine a decent unit of SM or WL are going to weight in at 300-400pts. You can pick the rest of the army apart with magic while finishing them off in combat rather easily.

Tim/Steve 04-09-11 05:37 PM

Hmm, if its really that easy why are we all discussing this one?

Have to say itsonlyme that for someone who admits that rarely play SCs you seem to be very overconfident about this one. Other then artillery being great I disagree with almost everything you said there: these units tend to be too big for the concentrated shooting of most armies to be more then an irritant: it takes ~4 turns of close range fire from my shooty based WE army to really bring it to its knees. I doubt any other army could use small arms fire as anything other then an addition to artillery to weaken it.

Caradryan is immense; but its not his attacks that are his best feature. Sure he's strong
enough to kill a chariot in 1 turn without that much difficulty, but if he fails and you kill him he explodes and kills you that way. Even if you do keep characters with 2++ vs flaming just in case you'll need a decent ward to survive his death- a 3+ on a hero of tzeentch is a nice start, but there's still a good chance of you dying (about 40% or so).

Sword of Anti-Heroes is a pretty huge risk, and it isnt much of a help- firstly you need to survive being hit, then you need for your attacks to matter. If your fighting Caradryan then the HE player probably wants him to die...
Personally I would say the Sword of Swift Striking giving you ASF would be a better idea. Send a cheap unit with a cheap hero with that at Teclis, have the champ accept any challenges the HE issue and the hero attack Teclis and you might get somewhere... unless the HEs spent the extra points to make the unit LSG rather then spearmen (as is done in my local meta... which also makes it a points denial unit).

An arch-lector on war alter is an ok tactic if you're forced to it... but its so very risky. Personally I would use a similar, but safer, approach of using a steam tank with a couple of cheap units. Move the Stank up one flank (you get the nice bonus of sending a cannonball along a file of 10 elves) and the other small units up the other flank (HEs probably wont have the units to counter these... and wont see them as a threat).
Teclis has little choice but to keep turning to face the Stank since his magic is probably the only way the HEs have to counter it (allowing you plenty of time to use artillery/shooting to weaken his unit in case this goes wrong). Either way send your stank into a charge as soon as you can- if you hit a flank then your laughing but it doesnt make much differenece. The HE player has to hold since if he flees then you can charge him with the small units you sent the other way... and he'll have to flee from them, which if he does will bring him back towards the Stank and instant anhiliation.
WHen you get in combat the STank can grind away; the HE player would be forced to reform to face the Stank (unless they were already) to have any chance of killing it, giving your infantry (or even knights) a free flank to charge into when the STank has lowered the enemy numbers- you even use the HE's LD against them since with a rerollable stubborn Ld10 they wont be able to break from combat with the stank until their character start dying and/or they are drastically reduced in numbers (by which time your infantry should have caught up to them).

itsonlyme 04-09-11 07:34 PM

Sword of anti-heroes - I wasn't on about using it to attack Caradryan but rather to boost a even a weak character in combat, at the moment I am trying it out on my lvl4 sorcerer with MoT, Talisman of Endurance and charmed shield. I think with a 3+/4+ save he is more than able to take a lot of damage, your right the character certainly needs some protection and its certainly no use on a hero with no wardsave, still I don't think its a bad item in general. It just so happens that against these types of units you really get your points worth.

Caradryan - I believe its less than 40% with a 3+ wardsave, I mean what maths is:

3 attacks -> 2.25hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 1.25 after armour -> 0.416 after wardsave but before the D3

back -> 4 attacks -> 2.66hits -> 2.22wounds -> 1.11 after wardsave

For me the maths says here on average he wont wound the Tzeentch, he wont die in the first round, even if he does die then he only does 3-4 wounds so with a 3+ wardsave he will on average only do 1 wound.

I mean he's certainly a problem to deal with for some armies but I think most character will fail to kill him in a round, if you can break the unit he is with steadfast and win combat not so hard with chaos warriors depending on the unit) then his exploding wont be a issue.

He's a good character no doubt but he is a lot of points and in a lot of cases he will only kill something of equal of less points.

When it comes to dealing with special characters all you can do is play with cards you have dealt yourself and make the most of it, the one advantage you will always have against people who do these deathstar type units is numbers and more tactical options available.

I doubt a stank would even make it across the table against teclis, lore of shadows and death are good choices against empire, even metal to less degree. Anyways a archlector does have his own bonuses, lore master of lore of life, all he needs to do is kill the BSB and he can start using powers in combat. He is far more resistant to magic than the stank with MR1/2 with a 4+ wardsave, also as the stank starts taking wounds it starts losing effectiveness. I don't really think any way of dealing with such a target is safe or reliable, each has its own pro's and cons.

Its not being overconfident but rather not being so negative, at the end of the day I don't collect empire and rarely play with VC so a lot of what I am saying for other armies is off memory rather than reading through pages and pages of army books thinking of every single combo, for any army the best option for dealing with big expensive blocks like this is going to be shooting, empire its dropping two mortars a turn, or a hellstrom or even trying a volley gun! You can't spend the whole game shooting.

experiment 626 04-09-11 08:31 PM

Sadly for the VC's we just get the epic shaft against teclis;
- Magic relyant army which teclis shuts down by himself.
- no shooting beyond a 175pts minimum for a pointless 2D6+2 - Ld = wounds.
- the game's most over-costed units by far! (when spear skellies cost more than an elf spearman, you know someone hates your army!)
- 2 viable infantry units to choose from. (ghouls & grave guard)

Plus, considering that teclis gets to choose his lore before the game starts, he can pick exactly what's needed to counter a VC army;
- against a drakenhof guard army, fire kills our hammer unit outright. If it's drakenhof blood knights, then metal wipes them out.

- against a ghoul spam, shadows or death negates the main advantage ghouls have - their higher toughness. not to mention that pit of shades & purple sun are devastating to undead as well.

- life lore just turns HE's into a copy'ish version of 'better undead' with the healing and stat boosting.

- Heavens lore is usefull if the VC player is running plain sword & board grave guard, since it outright negates killing blow & can also negate the barrows banner too. Plus the comet is useful for droping on top of a bunkered general.

VC's only counters are;
- magic (yay right! a proper teclis list counters magic like dwarfs do!)
- combat with far sub-par troops.

It's not impossible for VC's to get teclis, but it requires a set list to do it. If you don't have the right combo, you're just going through the motions of watching your army get taken apart, piece by rotting-dead piece.

Tim/Steve 04-09-11 10:54 PM

OKay forgive me if if this doesn't make sense... Tim/Steve has been drinking :shok:

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsonlyme (Post 934067)
Sword of anti-heroes - I wasn't on about using it to attack Caradryan but rather to boost a even a weak character in combat, at the moment I am trying it out on my lvl4 sorcerer with MoT, Talisman of Endurance and charmed shield. I think with a 3+/4+ save he is more than able to take a lot of damage, your right the character certainly needs some protection and its certainly no use on a hero with no wardsave, still I don't think its a bad item in general. It just so happens that against these types of units you really get your points worth.Yeah, its a pretty good item to add to a mage, you dont lose anything normally and in some cases you become effective in combat.I might actually steal that idea for some of my WE spellweaver/singers get them to be half decent if the shit hits the fan (though I never want them in combat).

Caradryan - I believe its less than 40% with a 3+ wardsave, I mean what maths is:

3 attacks -> 2.25hits -> 1.5 wounds -> 1.25 after armour -> 0.416 after wardsave but before the D3

back -> 4 attacks -> 2.66hits -> 2.22wounds -> 1.11 after wardsave
I wasn't working on average wounds, just chance of getting killed straight.
I was assuming 2+/3++ (not a bad set of saves). Thats 0.25w after wardsave but before D3 or 1W every 4 turns. 2/3 of those wounds will be enough to kill a 2W hero with the D3, or 16.7% chance of death.
Then I assumed that Caradryan died, with a 1/3 chance of beating the wardsave and then 5/6 chance of getting killed (D6 wounds). 27% chance of death from explosion, 16.7% chance of death from attacks... 44% total (ignoring chance of 1w from each). If Caradryan doesnt die that first round then it becomes even more likely he'll kill the hero, either with his turn 2 attacks or just a collection of wounds from all the above.


For me the maths says here on average he wont wound the Tzeentch, he wont die in the first round, even if he does die then he only does 3-4 wounds so with a 3+ wardsave he will on average only do 1 wound.
Since a Tzeentch hero is just about the best possible counter to Caradryan thats fairly good...

I mean he's certainly a problem to deal with for some armies but I think most character will fail to kill him in a round, if you can break the unit he is with steadfast and win combat not so hard with chaos warriors depending on the unit) then his exploding wont be a issue.
Tends to be in a unit of 5 ranks, you need to kill 9 before they lose that 5th rank (unit of 50 with 3 characters- Caradryan, Teclis and a BSB), the HEs will normlaly be steadfast even if they lose, and can reform into flank attacks if needed... when I use my ogres this makes me cry (first time I played it I flanked them with 9 ironguts and a tyrant, killed Caradryan and won by +9 ish... and still it doesnt matter).

He's a good character no doubt but he is a lot of points and in a lot of cases he will only kill something of equal of less points.
???
I dont play WoC but I expect most exhalted heros are about the same cost as Caradryan, they can certainly be more if you give them both magical items and gifts.


When it comes to dealing with special characters all you can do is play with cards you have dealt yourself and make the most of it, the one advantage you will always have against people who do these deathstar type units is numbers and more tactical options available.
Couldn't agree more- I dislike SCs in general. They're effective and all but I prefer to build an army as I want it to be, that includes characters. Sometimes I use them for a bit of a change but I always think the funnest characters are the ones you've designed to fit the exact roles you need to fit with the tactics you use.

I doubt a stank would even make it across the table against teclis, lore of shadows and death are good choices against empire, even metal to less degree. Anyways a archlector does have his own bonuses, lore master of lore of life, all he needs to do is kill the BSB and he can start using powers in combat. He is far more resistant to magic than the stank with MR1/2 with a 4+ wardsave, also as the stank starts taking wounds it starts losing effectiveness. I don't really think any way of dealing with such a target is safe or reliable, each has its own pro's and cons.
Shadows and death would both kill a stank pretty quick, but then they both have a decent chance of taking out a war alter too. If you are playing against Teclis with a stank and he takes either you'll need to change tactics, but thats fine- neither is particularly effetcive against other empire units. Its if Teclis takes high, heavens, fire, light or life that the stank can really own him.

Its not being overconfident but rather not being so negative, at the end of the day I don't collect empire and rarely play with VC so a lot of what I am saying for other armies is off memory rather than reading through pages and pages of army books thinking of every single combo, for any army the best option for dealing with big expensive blocks like this is going to be shooting, empire its dropping two mortars a turn, or a hellstrom or even trying a volley gun! You can't spend the whole game shooting.

Yeah, undeniably the best thing empire can do is drop mortars on Teclis's head turn after turn... and if you have a couple mortars (or similar artillery) in your army you're set. Its how to deal with the big T if you dont... thats where ti gets tricky.
Personally I tend to think worst case scenarios: I like to have back up plans for my back up plans- if I only have 1 tactic that I think stands a chance when I head into a battle then I tend to be pretty antsy... then again I have got something of a rep for having both awful luck and winning most games, mainly because I have options available for when my primary tactics fall through.


Experiment- Teclis can choose his lore before the game, but he doesnt get to spy your army first. Ask him to choose his lore before you get your army out, or even better, write an army list and leave it on the table, and get out a load of random models. Then when he declares what he is using, put away the random models and get out your army... your army list hasn't changed since its been on the table and you get to laugh at the opponent if he conplains because his complaint would also be an admission of cheating...

If you really cant deal with Teclis's unit then you can just play denial (assuming the HEs aren't already playing that). Just summon some zombies in front of the unit, close by if possible and angled to push the HEs off into an unhelpful direction. You'll lose 50VP a turn, but you should be able to ignore Teclis and his unit for most of the game- focus on killing the rest of his army (and hope Teclis doesnt pull anything too nasty out of the bag and you might be able to scrape a victory.
Sometimes all you can do in a game is make it as hard as possible for the enemy to win, rather then trying to win yourself... occasionally you'll come out ahead, but more often then not you'll lose but be able to walk away with your head held high- most ogres players have learned this lesson already (its often painful playing ogres).

itsonlyme 04-10-11 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 934274)
OKay forgive me if if this doesn't make sense... Tim/Steve has been drinking :shok:

No makes sense, I think you need to drink more :P

Quote:

Yeah, its a pretty good item to add to a mage, you dont lose anything normally and in some cases you become effective in combat.I might actually steal that idea for some of my WE spellweaver/singers get them to be half decent if the shit hits the fan (though I never want them in combat).
Well this is why I am going to try it out on my Tzeentch sorcerer at the SCGT, I was trying to decide between enchanted shield and sword of might in a unit of warriors banner of rage or charmed shield and sword of anti heroes. I choose to go with the sword anti-heroes because a lot of people seem to be slapping 2-3 heroes in a unit, I think it works best on a tzeentch sorcerer because he can get a 4+ wardsave by only spending 30pts of his magic allowance, has chaos armour and can have a magical shield and still have room for a puppet. You still have you unit champion to take challenges but you can surprise a low I lord/heroes with a serious smack down and also it allows him to engage a archlector and not really lose any combat power.

Quote:

I wasn't working on average wounds, just chance of getting killed straight.
I was assuming 2+/3++ (not a bad set of saves). Thats 0.25w after wardsave but before D3 or 1W every 4 turns. 2/3 of those wounds will be enough to kill a 2W hero with the D3, or 16.7% chance of death.
Then I assumed that Caradryan died, with a 1/3 chance of beating the wardsave and then 5/6 chance of getting killed (D6 wounds). 27% chance of death from explosion, 16.7% chance of death from attacks... 44% total (ignoring chance of 1w from each). If Caradryan doesnt die that first round then it becomes even more likely he'll kill the hero, either with his turn 2 attacks or just a collection of wounds from all the above.
Well I certainly see your point but I think the averages help put it into prospective rather nicely, mind you I don't think I would be to inclined to risk it if I could avoid it, I think that would just be a case of unit champion issuing challenge.

Quote:

Tends to be in a unit of 5 ranks, you need to kill 9 before they lose that 5th rank (unit of 50 with 3 characters- Caradryan, Teclis and a BSB), the HEs will normlaly be steadfast even if they lose, and can reform into flank attacks if needed... when I use my ogres this makes me cry (first time I played it I flanked them with 9 ironguts and a tyrant, killed Caradryan and won by +9 ish... and still it doesnt matter).
As for the ranks well actually for a unit of 20 warriors its only 6 wounds that have to because to break the steadfast if they lose none, 16 if they lose a model (of course not taking into account a hellcannon which on one shoot would cripple the unit).

Even so the unit does 5.18 wounds on average a turn, sorcerer does 2.77 so roughly 9 a turn (which interesting workout at a loss of 0.5 wounds a turn.

spear elves do 2.66, Caradryan does 1.62, bsb does 0.44

Of course this does not take into account things like challenges and not but I think losing Caradryan would cost the unit the combat as its average would go down to 3 wounds a turn, the chaos warriors could easily pick off Teclis and the BSB, certainly lose a few wounds but not enough to lose the combat. If a BSB with 3+ wardsave was in the unit he would be pumping out 2.22 wounds a turn, wouldn't lose any combat effectiveness as characters died and be able on average to survive. Even if he died killing Caradryan the unit without him would be pumping out 5.92 wounds.

Main thing here that the main block of destruction would be held in combat long enough to deal with the rest of the army and move other units into position to deal with them. With my List I also have the unit of 18 warriors with halberds and banner of rage as well as the unit of chosen. With Caradyran dead it also makes the unit a perfect target to charge a hellcannon into which will provide 2.08 wounds as well as 3-4 stomp attacks a turn and 0.5 wounds from the crew.

Quote:

I dont play WoC but I expect most exhalted heros are about the same cost as Caradryan, they can certainly be more if you give them both magical items and gifts.
A BSB costs about 190-200pts, most exalted cost around 175pts if on foot, they are not as expensive as people think, they only start at 110pts but they only have leadership 8, I6 which I think is what keeps the cost down. Me I don't very often bother with gifts other than 3rd eye. I mean the only one for a combat hero worth taking is stream of corruption which is only 2D6 S3 hits so 25pts for 3-4 hits once per game isn't really worth it. They get expensive when slapped on a mount like a jugger or daemonic steed but they are not that competitive (I like my jugger and everything but your list has to be designed with him in mind).

Quote:

Couldn't agree more- I dislike SCs in general. They're effective and all but I prefer to build an army as I want it to be, that includes characters. Sometimes I use them for a bit of a change but I always think the funnest characters are the ones you've designed to fit the exact roles you need to fit with the tactics you use.
Well I started playing in 4th ed, in 5th I had my book dedicated to special characters, when 6th came around I decided I wanted to use my own characters and have more enjoyable games. I really hate special characters, the over powered ones are just a crutch for bad players and can be beaten because people will rely on them to win the game. One of the things I like about chaos even with its rather limited play style is that the few characters they have can fit more than one role, Tzeentch bsb with halberd and 3+ wardave is a prime example, he can be survivable just as he can dish out the damage to most targets.

Quote:

Shadows and death would both kill a stank pretty quick, but then they both have a decent chance of taking out a war alter too. If you are playing against Teclis with a stank and he takes either you'll need to change tactics, but thats fine- neither is particularly effetcive against other empire units. Its if Teclis takes high, heavens, fire, light or life that the stank can really own him.
Yeah good point, shadows is still very effective against the other units which are on average I3 so a 50% chance of failure for pit including the sorcerers, death the same and making S/T3 units S/T2 for a turn can really be a game breaker, suddenly PG can murder a unit, spearmen become savage and even shootings is a real pain (doing the boosted version will win a game).

Quote:

Yeah, undeniably the best thing empire can do is drop mortars on Teclis's head turn after turn... and if you have a couple mortars (or similar artillery) in your army you're set. Its how to deal with the big T if you dont... thats where ti gets tricky.
I think most empire armies have 2 cannons and 2 mortars these days, main thing with the mortars is they are just so cheap (75pts), of course it does depend if you are playing with some sort of comp as I know several will limit things like warmachines, one I have seen is max of 4, stanks count as 2.

Quote:

Personally I tend to think worst case scenarios: I like to have back up plans for my back up plans- if I only have 1 tactic that I think stands a chance when I head into a battle then I tend to be pretty antsy... then again I have got something of a rep for having both awful luck and winning most games, mainly because I have options available for when my primary tactics fall through.
Oh I totally agree with having a backup plan, still with my army I think the best bet is going to be hellcannon followed by a conga line of dragon ogres (reduces incoming attacks while still providing 7+1 stomp on the begger whch also means I have to take 8 wounds before I lose attacks).


Quote:

Experiment- Teclis can choose his lore before the game, but he doesnt get to spy your army first. Ask him to choose his lore before you get your army out, or even better, write an army list and leave it on the table, and get out a load of random models. Then when he declares what he is using, put away the random models and get out your army... your army list hasn't changed since its been on the table and you get to laugh at the opponent if he conplains because his complaint would also be an admission of cheating...
This is a rather good idea

LordWaffles 04-11-11 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 934274)
Experiment- Teclis can choose his lore before the game, but he doesnt get to spy your army first. Ask him to choose his lore before you get your army out, or even better, write an army list and leave it on the table, and get out a load of random models. Then when he declares what he is using, put away the random models and get out your army... your army list hasn't changed since its been on the table and you get to laugh at the opponent if he conplains because his complaint would also be an admission of cheating..

Thisx10. Brilliant advice.

experiment 626 04-11-11 04:10 PM

Tim/Steve: I think I'll definately have to try that idea out.

There's a couple of absolute pricks I'd just love to devastate... Always running 'uber WAAC's style teclis lists that pretty much end most games by turn 3. (turn 2 against anyone without solid magical defenses!)

Trashing them with VC's would simply add insult to injury too, since most of the local douch bags consider undead in general to be no-contest, 'instant-win' armies that don't have a hope of competing.:threaten:

Cheers!

fritzagelmann 04-12-11 07:24 PM

I hate to be that guy, but VC are still very competitive, just look at the results from the 2011 Colonial GT, your talking about 3 in the top 10, ignoring that first place was a VC too. Also, notice that there are no HE in the top 3, so clearly people are finding ways around the Tec block.

It honestly seems like the best way to deal with tecs unit is to take it out of the game, you are talkin about a 1,000pts unit. Feed it units. I would think spirit host as only the characters could harm the, but really anything from bats to wolves seems like it would work. Just anything to keep the unit in hth for a turn so he cant cast.

Another thought that seems possible is a vamp on hellsteed. Mayeb with the BloodDrinker, or blades of gold.

I don't play VC, but I have played against them enough to know that they bite hard, and every army has issue with Tec and his bunker

Tim/Steve 04-12-11 09:32 PM

Nice point fritz... but it falls down somewhat:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Collonial ruleset
All Special characters are allowed for this event for 40k. Fantasy Players may use special Characters for this event, with the exception of Teclis, Fateweaver, and Thoric.

^^ this is by far the best way of dealing with Teclis, but unfortunately we can't all play by tourny rules.


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