Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums

Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/)
-   Warhammer Tactics (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/173-warhammer-tactics/)
-   -   Versus...Teclis (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/warhammer-tactics/71472-versus-teclis.html)

Orochi 09-20-10 12:12 PM

Versus...Teclis
 
As title implies, what do you do when your High Elf opponent whips out the King of magic?

On paper, I can finally see Malekith having a use, as a Str6 hit against Teclis for every spell that is dispelled when the Target is Malekith or his unit would really hurt the little elf. Malekith generating +1 Dispel dice and having MR2 helps this alot.

Obviously, Corpse Carts with Balefire would also help considerably.

Thoughts?

Arli 09-20-10 01:06 PM

For lizards, Bane head (double wounds from single wounds to named target) plus feedback scroll=dead Teclis.

Aramoro 09-20-10 01:08 PM

If he's not hiding in a Banner of the World Dragon then strangely spells are a good turning point. Dwellers From Below will kill him on a 3+ with no save, Final Transmutions will turn him in a shiny gold Teclis on a 5+.

The other option is to go and stab him in his stupid face. He's not very strong so if you get into combat you'll have 3 guys in base to base, direct you're attacks into him, don't challenge him, just stab him.

He's a very powerful Character, no more than you would expect for his price though.

Aramoro

Putch. 09-20-10 02:35 PM

Lore of death? Fate of Bjuna, and Caress of Laniph= Lawl my 80 point empire wizard just ate your teclis.

Tim/Steve 09-20-10 03:11 PM

Spells are a pretty bad way to try to counter this old lad- if he isnt paired with banner of the world dragon its likely he'll be with caradryan and so will have MR3 (unlikely not to have any MR) so wil have a save against spells like the golden hounds. Characteristic tests or straight dead spells like swellers and final transmulation are great... but a little hard to pull off against Teclis without irrisistable force: he comes with his own scroll which is almost certain to be used if you are targeting a spell at him that can kill him in 1 go (and may well stop you using that spell again) and if not then he still has +D3 dispel dice and +5 to dispel... not easy.

If I was going to use magic then I would hope to have something like a lv4 with life, a lv2 with life and a power scroll. Lv4 bufs your army and rolls spells first (does not take dwellers), Lv2 almost has to get dwellers (certainly will if the Lv4 didnt roll it and didnt change anything to earthblood)... that lets you march the Lv2 away from all units turn 1 and then throw <6 dice at dwellers to force it through.... without a banner of teh world dragon or some serious luck Teclis would die. Its also not a bad set up against other armies... but it is broken and beardy as all hell (BoLS made a list top6 broken things in 8th- Teclis, power scroll and dwellers all made it on).

If you have any directed (sniper) shooting then Teclis is in trouble. Things like the hunter's bow, pageant of shrikes or hotchland longrifle are all pretty sweet against Teclis... but you'll often find he takes life and so that is pretty irritating too, as you mihgt put 2W on Teclis, but then by casting a few spells (and you wont stop him casting at least 2 a turn) he'll be back to full wounds... arrgghhh

The best way to kill him is always to get into combat and munch him... but you come into problems here too: the standard suicide assault squad that I would use to kill enemy wizards wouldnt work on Teclis. First he's a lord and so has 3W meaning that you need to have 3A to have a chance at him, and ~6 to make it really likely but the bigger issue is that he will normally sit in a bit unit of HE, with huge numbers of attacks, rerolls to hit and they'll go first... Dum dum derrrr.
However, on the up side you dont need all that many to survive and you can jump all over a massively expensive character. So sending a unit of 30 clanrats into a fight they cannot possibly win is fine: you might lose 15 rats and have no chance of winning, but you can kill Teclis (and mebbe a few bonus HE) and draw the enemy out of position if they pursue you while only risking a relatively cheap unit. Almost all armies have something they can try this with... about the worst example would be ogres, but even then they can use gnoblars for this purpose (if you ever manage to get them into position).

Durzod 09-20-10 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochi (Post 733822)
As title implies, what do you do when your High Elf opponent whips out the King of magic?

On paper, I can finally see Malekith having a use, as a Str6 hit against Teclis for every spell that is dispelled when the Target is Malekith or his unit would really hurt the little elf. Malekith generating +1 Dispel dice and having MR2 helps this alot.

Obviously, Corpse Carts with Balefire would also help considerably.

Thoughts?

The problem with both these options is they don't affect Teclis when he rolls doubles (irresistible).

Putch. 09-20-10 05:32 PM

I think Tim/steve has the best, most assured way to kill Teclis, snipers. Long rifles, and the like, while uncomman, will do the trick. Failing that, if you can get lots of templates, or artillery send them all at him! He will fail a Look out sir! Eventually! :D

Masked Jackal 09-20-10 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 733914)
The best way to kill him is always to get into combat and munch him... but you come into problems here too: the standard suicide assault squad that I would use to kill enemy wizards wouldnt work on Teclis. First he's a lord and so has 3W meaning that you need to have 3A to have a chance at him, and ~6 to make it really likely but the bigger issue is that he will normally sit in a bit unit of HE, with huge numbers of attacks, rerolls to hit and they'll go first... Dum dum derrrr.
However, on the up side you dont need all that many to survive and you can jump all over a massively expensive character. So sending a unit of 30 clanrats into a fight they cannot possibly win is fine: you might lose 15 rats and have no chance of winning, but you can kill Teclis (and mebbe a few bonus HE) and draw the enemy out of position if they pursue you while only risking a relatively cheap unit. Almost all armies have something they can try this with... about the worst example would be ogres, but even then they can use gnoblars for this purpose (if you ever manage to get them into position).

Supporting this, it's worth even throwing a fairly large unit into the meat-blender to kill Teclis, due to his high cost and utter lack of natural defense. Once he's gone, that's usually the enemy's magic phase gone as well, allowing you to magic the High Elves into the ground, if necessary.

The Son of Horus 09-28-10 05:25 PM

You snap his ass in a bear trap. Charge his unit. I know that sounds a bit unsophisticated, but sometimes, the simplest fix for silly things the High Elves do is to just go punch them in the face with heavy infantry or cavalry. Even though High Elves typically hit with about 75% of their attacks, the units that throw a serious volume of attacks are doing so at S3 (such as Spearmen/Seaguard.) You'll have enough guys left after taking your saves with heavy infantry or cavalry to just flat beat the unit in combat most of the time, in my experience.

Additionally, if you've got Teclis hanging out with somebody like Caradryan, they're probably in a decent unit. And that decent unit with those two in there are going to run the High Elf player around 800 points once you factor them in. That means that there probably aren't that many enemy units on the table in general, even though each enemy unit may be singularly powerful. At that point, just outmaneuver them (seriously, if you've got one and a half times as many units as they do, you can do it pretty easily.)

If you've got the means to shoot him, however, that's probably the simple fix.

the-graven 09-28-10 06:47 PM

If he got no Banner of World Dragon, power scroll Dwellers is the best thing, of Fate fo Bjuna if your vamps.

THat Banner fo World Dragon enables HE to have a Deathstar taht works, all ohter armies death stars get magiced to death.

LordWaffles 11-10-10 03:45 PM

Wulfrik from behind seems to be chaos' hard counter to Teclis hiding in the back.

But in all seriousness jesus fucking christ he's undercosted, especially if they take the lore of metal. (Kills my lords on a 6+ with NO saves!? And my warriors on a 5+? Again no save? Fuuuuuck)

Calvary works okay if they can get there. But good lord lore of metal is way too good, and vastly superior to shit tier tzeentch spells.

Vaz 11-10-10 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arli (Post 733853)
For lizards, Bane head (double wounds from single wounds to named target) plus feedback scroll=dead Teclis.

Bane Head + Blood Statuette of Spite is good. Got to pass two toughness tests.

Any none Troll WoC facing Teclis with Lore of Metal dies easier than Ogres against one with Lore of Death/Shadow.

It's not that spell that's the best about it - but a combination of Blades of Aiban on Phoenix Guard (4++ Saves, with AP +1 to hit and S4 hits is a fairly decent killer when they have ASF), Searing Bolt (always powered up, naturally), and Hounds (THAT kills your generals).

One which is rarely taken, but I don't like is Heavens Teclis - reducing my Combat Ability, slows me down, rerolls for his own side, Comet nuking the Troll Horde, and Chain Lightning doing mega damage to MSU Trolls, leaving no real option to turn.

And Galrauch isn't much use to counter it unless you can get Teclis alone. If you Challenge, 2D6 Toughness Tests or Die soon kill him (funny how many people think that it's reasonable to not accept the challenge and then suffer a potential 36 Attacks in a single phase)



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

sybarite 11-10-10 08:41 PM

yes Teclis is OP but that's why he is banned in most tournaments and if people take him in a "friendly game" l just don't play with them nice and easy.

if you have to vs someone playing Teclis (dont know why) the only luck l had was my BSB took black tongue and l force Teclis to take a miscast and with some help from infeal puppet he died.

Cheese meister 11-12-10 12:17 AM

but teclis ignores the first miscast every turn

Daemon Prince Paintbox 03-26-11 07:47 PM

Like most people have said, just shoot him! Or get into combat. I feel dirty I have High Elves and I'm giving you tactics. Must be the Tzeentch gods addling my mind

coke123 03-27-11 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arli (Post 733853)
For lizards, Bane head (double wounds from single wounds to named target) plus feedback scroll=dead Teclis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaz (Post 782682)
Bane Head + Blood Statuette of Spite is good. Got to pass two toughness tests.

Neither of these work- due to the shitness of the bane head. Bane head is- "All unsaved wounds caused by the bearer on the nominated character are doubled". So Arli's combination requires a Slann to go off, due to the expense, and this also means that the Slann in question cannot have cupped hands. You'd be better of fighting him in combat, or outmaneuvring/shooting with skinks.

Vaz's combination just flat-out doesn't work, since both bane head and the blood statuette are enchanted items, meaning they cannot be taken on the same model. Which means that due to the wording of bane head, the two items can never combine. Not to mention the blood statuette is a bound spell, and hence can be dispelled...

So looks like lizards have to get up close and kill Teclis the old fashioned way.

space cowboy 03-30-11 05:13 AM

Ghoul assassination unit lead by a combat-tuned Vamp with Nightshroud. Get that Vamp (or another) the power where you get a march move with Ghouls and just get there as fast as possible and chop him up into tiny bits with a well-positioned charge. Make sure to have a Ghast to soak up the champ trying to challenge to draw away your Vamp.

Alternately you can kind of mess up Teclis if he sits in the back by using Nightshroud and Lycni on a combat Vamp with the Scout power. The big difference here being that you have to take a support unit that can get to your Vamp quickly to assist. The nice thing about this is if the unit Teclis is in isn't too huge, you might be able to challenge and overkill the HElf character(s) that are not Teclis by enough to not die to combat resolution, limiting what Teclis can cast and allowing your other stuff to get stuck in with fewer problems.

Gromrir Silverblade 03-30-11 12:03 PM

Tricky for dwarfs, especially if he's in a unit, if he's not, snipe with a cannonball/GT otherwise Ranger quarrerlers.

Aramoro 03-30-11 01:12 PM

I think most High Elf players will probably put that 400+ point dude in a unit, with his T2 and no save.

Vaz 03-30-11 02:11 PM

Empire, funnily enough, have the easiest way of dealing with him. S4 AP Weapons break the Infantry's maximum armour save, Mortars are only a little bit more expensive than your sister, Helstorms are hilarious, and have a decent initiative/strength, along with 2 Level 4 Wizards for the same price as himself.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

Aramoro 03-30-11 02:37 PM

Can you not use Hockland Long Rifles to shoot his as well

Gromrir Silverblade 03-30-11 02:40 PM

What if he stays out of range? Or out of LOS?

Aramoro 03-30-11 02:48 PM

Realistically he's not going to be out of range as his spells have range.

experiment 626 03-30-11 02:51 PM

The vampire assassin isn't the best option for VC's... You need those thralls boosting the bulk of your army & providing their march bonus - not being thrown away in a blatently obvious suicide charge!

Instead of throwing away a crucial vamp, slap a cheap wight king w/extra hand weapon + nightshroud + other trickster's shard into the ghoul unit instead!
more wounds & attacks, higher toughness and killing blow plus a re-roll successful wards...

It's cheaper and a far better pts useage on what will be a sacrifical unit in the end.

Gromrir Silverblade 03-31-11 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramoro (Post 923044)
Realistically he's not going to be out of range as his spells have range.

Let's assume he's using lore of life, in which case isn't it only Dwellers that is ranged?

Hudson 03-31-11 09:21 AM

hochland long rifles is one way to go but pretty rare to hit in all honesty with long range and what not to consider, my opinion is if you know they will be playing him make damned sure you got something that will fly and get over there damned quick and bite the mo-fos head off!! take some magic and be pure defensive about it i.e full stacks of DS make sure he don't get anything off (except irresistable) and make him redundant.

I will admit teclis with loads of archers is a pain, you lose most of your 2+ save guys to silly rolls of 1 and yes that's rare but the amount of saves you will be making is enough to make rare crap saves pretty common :( so yea, get there quick munch his head off and have fun lol

my personal fav is a great cannon to the face :) D6 wounds and a lucky roll buh bye teclis :bye:

Vaz 03-31-11 09:30 AM

You can only have 1 Dispel Scroll. Well, there are multiple scrolls, but against an All Comers list, taking more than 1 or, perhaps 2 is just sheer overkill. Plus, if need be, they can 6 dice a spell and get IF - on in Teclis' set, 3-4 dice and have a good chance of getting a double.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

space cowboy 03-31-11 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by experiment 626 (Post 923048)
The vampire assassin isn't the best option for VC's... You need those thralls boosting the bulk of your army & providing their march bonus - not being thrown away in a blatently obvious suicide charge!

Instead of throwing away a crucial vamp, slap a cheap wight king w/extra hand weapon + nightshroud + other trickster's shard into the ghoul unit instead!
more wounds & attacks, higher toughness and killing blow plus a re-roll successful wards...

It's cheaper and a far better pts useage on what will be a sacrifical unit in the end.

I just always seem to have a spare slot based on number of non-vampire units that will need a Vamp within distance versus where I position my units that don't have Vamps in them. If I have the extra 25 points (and let's face it, I can always drop a few skeletons and raise them later with Count Mannfred or a Lord of the Dead) there seems to be no reason to me not to take the dude who is the level 1 wizard (for channeling) and Infinite Hatred (to make sure I hit as much as possible as often as possible.)

Vaz 03-31-11 03:07 PM

At 2Kpts, you've just seen 8-10% of your KP's thrown away, when he might not even get there. Teclis can lore of light and Net of Amyntok it. If he's alone, that's 2D6 S4 hits, while Banishment is 3D6 S4 hits with a forced reroll to ward saves or Powered Burning Gaze with 2D6 S6 hits. And then he can also Timewarp himself (for M10 and fuck off out the way) or his unit and have 2 Attack White Lions/Phoenix Guard.

No, the assassin character won't work against Teclis.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

Masked Jackal 03-31-11 04:32 PM

An assassin *unit* is far better. A proper hammer unit can charge in, kill Teclis, and still contribute to the army list. Sure, you might not have many *good* options for a hammer, but as far as anti-Teclis measures, they're better than many of the other options. Throw some cavalry into him and pop him.

Captain Galus 03-31-11 05:01 PM

So is it safe to say that when a High Elf army uses Teclis, the objective of the game is simply to kill Teclis?

What people have done when I use him is either:

A) Use Archaon, and usually loose

-or-

B) Just make sure he doesn't get a spell off (Dispel Scrolls, lots of MR, LOS)

Any High Elf player that takes Teclis is putting a lot of his eggs in one basket. If an army includes Teclis, it's going to be lacking severely in other areas such as core infantry, specialist support or bolt throwers. That's the biggest reason I never use him or Tyrion anymore.

Masked Jackal 03-31-11 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Galus (Post 924290)
So is it safe to say that when a High Elf army uses Teclis, the objective of the game is simply to kill Teclis?

Considering that they likely have given over the entire magic phase to Teclis, the rest of their army should fall apart pretty handily if you take him out, using magic to close the gap he had made before.

experiment 626 03-31-11 09:27 PM

Have to agree with the above comments... For VC's the ghoul sling-shot + nightsroud'ed Wight King is ideal. (less pts that will go down the drain)
Only problem that assassin unit will run into is either an IF dwellers or net of amnytok. And wight kings butcher elves far more efficiently than thralls do.

sir_m1ke 04-04-11 12:24 PM

Beastmen have it easiest- Stone of Spite, chuck 6 dice at it and watch as Teclis disappears under 3D6 S4 hits

25pts for an item that has claimed Teclis and 3 High Elf Archmages in this edition so far:music:

blackspine 04-04-11 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_m1ke (Post 928254)
Beastmen have it easiest- Stone of Spite, chuck 6 dice at it and watch as Teclis disappears under 3D6 S4 hits

25pts for an item that has claimed Teclis and 3 High Elf Archmages in this edition so far:music:

don't forget to add power scroll to that for IF stone of spite.
If you're clever enough, you can fit the 'hagtree fetish' just outside the 18 inches and still within 24 to re-roll all wounds.
Meaning almost any sorcerer is in serious trouble if you don't roll 1's.



which happens a lot...

Tim/Steve 04-04-11 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by experiment 626 (Post 924614)
Have to agree with the above comments... For VC's the ghoul sling-shot + nightsroud'ed Wight King is ideal. (less pts that will go down the drain)
Only problem that assassin unit will run into is either an IF dwellers or net of amnytok. And wight kings butcher elves far more efficiently than thralls do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_m1ke (Post 928254)
Beastmen have it easiest- Stone of Spite, chuck 6 dice at it and watch as Teclis disappears under 3D6 S4 hits

25pts for an item that has claimed Teclis and 3 High Elf Archmages in this edition so far:music:

Both decent tactics for dealing with Teclis if he is on his own, but not very helpful if the enemy uses the build that my local players do:

Teclis
BSB- world dragon
Caradryan
50+ spearmen with full command and warbanner.

+6 static combat res, immunity to all magic (so Teclis is offensive, not buffing), a champion to negate lesser characters (eg a wight king charge- let him die from SCR) or Caradryan to kil/suicide on anything big. If you charge in with a big unit then you're going to get hit by a huge amount of attacks befreo your strike (and unless they've been forgetful the HE player has normally just let Teclis jump ship to another unit).

I've managed to smash armies with this unit in before with my WE (yay, elven pincushion) which are almost perfectly designed to take on HE but my ogres just see it and cry. I normally get magicked to pieces before I get close, and the 1 time I managed to destroy it Teclis had jumped out ran away from my charges for the rest of the game (stupid fleeing isn't dead rule) letting the HE win by about 120pts.

I think the answer is big units of cheap rubbish backed up by ranged magic/shooting. Send in a unit of skaven slaves, let them be ripped to pieces and hope you have 6 attacks left to allocate to Teclis (and pray you get lucky)... if he jumps out then just kill him with magic/shooting. Seems like a fair tactic... but not every army can do it.

effigy22 04-04-11 04:52 PM

20x Inner Circle knights led by a Templar Grand master which has ASF. Unit has the Strider Banner.

Not very subtle but its brilliant to see opponents suddenly stop giggling when they move through trees etc unimpeded!

Also - heading torwards terrain seems to make my opponent come forward thinking they will be safe and i will be slowed down!

itsonlyme 04-04-11 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 928430)
Teclis
BSB- world dragon
Caradryan
50+ spearmen with full command and warbanner.

+6 static combat res, immunity to all magic (so Teclis is offensive, not buffing), a champion to negate lesser characters (eg a wight king charge- let him die from SCR) or Caradryan to kil/suicide on anything big. If you charge in with a big unit then you're going to get hit by a huge amount of attacks befreo your strike (and unless they've been forgetful the HE player has normally just let Teclis jump ship to another unit).

Thats certainly a very powerful uni, as WoC player is going to have a field day with that, drop some hellcannon on the unit and finish it off with a unit of Tzeentch chosen lead by a Tzeentch BSB with 3+ wardsave and hoping for +1T and +1A or wardsave. Thats or a unit of 20 Tzeentch warriors with HW+SH lead by my sorcerer with sword of anti heroes (so thats 5 S7 attacks).

Meanwhile the sorcerer has been using dwellers on the rest of the HW army or stealing the augment spell to boost the Tzeentch warriors/chosen.

experiment 626 04-04-11 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 928430)
Both decent tactics for dealing with Teclis if he is on his own, but not very helpful if the enemy uses the build that my local players do:

Teclis
BSB- world dragon
Caradryan
50+ spearmen with full command and warbanner.

The wight king/ghoul sling shot will still eat the Big T... Nightshroud is the key since it negates ASF and gives ASL instead.:P You just have to line up your unit properly so that the Wk will get into BtB w/teclis and let your unit chump answer any challenge is the elves throw one out.
Yes, the unit & king are very much going to die, but for VC's, it's an 'acceptable loss' since we have almost no way of really dealing with teclis.

Of corse, it's by no means fool-proof, since your opponent can simply shift teclis if they go first before you can charge... or else you flub your charge roll, and/or teclis gets a couple IF's off that aren't 2x6's.
Teclis is about the dirtiest thing HE's can do to VC's actually!

blackspine 04-04-11 10:32 PM

stone of spite explosions aren't magical.
They're just explosions. His equipment just goes poof.

Really, besides wading down field against Dweller spam, that's about all beasts have.


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:22 AM.

Powered by the Emperor of Man.


vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.0 Beta 4 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome