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-   -   Skaven vs. Warriors of Chaos (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/warhammer-tactics/67514-skaven-vs-warriors-chaos.html)

ManOnTheMooney 07-28-10 04:26 AM

Skaven vs. Warriors of Chaos
 
Me and my friend I going to be having our first showdown with out first fantasy armies sometime in the near future, and I was curious if you guys could give me some tips and pointers. I will be playing Warriors of Chaos, and it will be with the 8th ed Rules.

It will presumably be 1500 points, and my force will basically consist of:

Heroes:

Exalted Hero
AHW, Mark of Nurgle, Chaos Runesword, Bloodcurdling Roar
Chaos Sorcerer
Level 2, Power Familiar, Dispel Scroll

Core:
2x(12 Warriors of Chaos)
Mark of Nurgle, Shields, Command
20 Marauders
Mark of Khorne, Flails, Light Armor
10 Chaos Warhounds

Special:

5 Chaos Knights (Ensorc. Weapons)
Mark of Khorne, Knight Champion, Blasted Standard
5 Chosen Warriors
Mark of Nurgle/Khorne(Undecided), Halberds

Feel free to comment on the list, but I would prefer overall tips and strategies.

My friend will most likely have something like, but none confirmed:

Warlock Engineer
60 Clanrats
20 Stormvermin
20 Plaguemonks
2 Rat Ogres
6 Giant Rats
3 Jezzails
2 Ratling Guns
Doomwheel




Edit: Whoops posted before finished, gimme a minute.
Edit Edit: Finished :)
Edit Edit Edit: Shoot, sorry guys, how do you move threads? I realized now this should be in the Tactics forum.

Sethis 07-28-10 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManOnTheMooney (Post 687559)

It will presumably be 1500 points, and my force will basically consist of:

Heroes:

Exalted Hero
AHW, Mark of Nurgle, Chaos Runesword, Bloodcurdling Roar

Do you know if he has a character designed for killing characters? If he does, consider Chaos Runeshield instead of the sword (your profile is easily enough to beat down a ratman by itself) and if he doesn't, then consider the Breath Weapon gift instead of Roar.

Chaos Sorcerer
Level 2, Power Familiar, Dispel Scroll

If you can fish out the points somewhere, get this guy the Mark of Tzeentch as top priority. If he only has one caster, then I'd suggest you don't need the scroll.

Core:
2x(12 Warriors of Chaos)
Mark of Nurgle, Shields, Command

Small units, but with him hitting on 5s, wounding on 5s and a 3+/6++ on your end then you should do very well with these.

20 Marauders
Mark of Khorne, Flails, Light Armor
10 Chaos Warhounds

I personally would drop *both* of these units in order to buy more Chaos Warriors, you should be able to make both units 18 men instead of 12 (or buy the Sorc MoT)

Special:

5 Chaos Knights (Ensorc. Weapons)
Mark of Khorne, Knight Champion, Blasted Standard

Solid, but don't be surprised if they don't make their points back - my knights so far in 8th have been rather suboptimal (but admittedly my dice rolling sucks).

5 Chosen Warriors
Mark of Nurgle/Khorne(Undecided), Halberds

I really wouldn't bother. 1 shot from a ratling gun will wipe them out, a lot of wasted points. I'd buy more Warriors/Knights instead.

Feel free to comment on the list, but I would prefer overall tips and strategies.

My friend will most likely have something like, but none confirmed:

Warlock Engineer
60 Clanrats - Your warriors can cut them up all day
20 Stormvermin - Same again, but you'll lose a couple of extra models
20 Plaguemonks - Same
2 Rat Ogres - Will die easily to your knights
6 Giant Rats - Can ignore them
3 Jezzails - Try to keep your knights away from them (duh) because they're only hitting once per turn (on average) and that's not a problem.
2 Ratling Guns - The single most irritating unit in the skaven army, in my opinion. If you can kill them with magic before they get in range, please do. Othewise there's not much else you can do apart from grimace as it eats a hole in your warriors.
Doomwheel - It's probably a long shot, but do you have a Shaggoth or Dragon Ogres? Talk about ideal an ideal target... you get frenzied, and you're immune to all of it's attacks apart from the rats.

Hope that was a little bit helpful. Try to go after the 20-man infantry units instead of the 60 clanrats, or you'll be there all day. Target priority is probably Wheel > Ratlings > 20 Man infantry units > Ogres > Clanrats so aim your magic appropriately! Good luck. :)

ManOnTheMooney 07-28-10 02:31 PM

Thanks for all the feedback, that helps a ton!

Rob1981 07-28-10 02:44 PM

Couldn't have put it better, I'd personally drop the dogs- they're all but useless in the new edition- and pick up some more marauders, a big unit of marauders with shields, light armour and no mark is cheap and effective- you could even drop their command and give them the MoN if you're feeling adventurous

Khorothis 07-31-10 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1981 (Post 687849)
Couldn't have put it better, I'd personally drop the dogs- they're all but useless in the new edition-

I actually wondered if a Horde of Warhounds might be a good idea. 10 wide, 5 deep, 300 pts. Stubborn dogs that eat your face. :laugh:

BTW I'd go with what Sethis said, its pure wisdom. :)

Sethis 07-31-10 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorothis (Post 689852)
I actually wondered if a Horde of Warhounds might be a good idea. 10 wide, 5 deep, 300 pts. Stubborn dogs that eat your face. :laugh:

Stubborn Ld 5 is still Ld 5. :wink:

The Son of Horus 07-31-10 12:59 PM

A few minor tidbits on the list--

The extra hand weapon on the Exalted Hero is unusable since you have a magic weapon. Instead, pick up a shield.

The sorcerer has two arcane items-- the dispel scroll counts against that limit now. The good news is, you really don't need a dispel scroll anymore. Just bring the power familiar, and you'll be good to go. You also need to choose your lore in the army list now-- for an unmarked sorcerer planning to fight Skaven, Lore of Fire is an excellent choice.

I'd toss the light armor from the Marauders-- they'll never use it. A 6+ save makes you feel a little better about life, but it's ultimately not worth its points. That'll buy you another Warrior for a unit, too. Try to run your units of Warriors at 14 with a hero-- In both 7th and in the new edition, I have had immense success with a unit that's 5x3-- Chaos doesn't function off of static scores anyway, and if it takes a round or two to break through, that's fine-- we can slog it out better than anyone, really.

As Sethis said, lose the Chosen. A unit of 5 is completely worthless. Just scatter them into your Warrior units for some visual variety for the time being-- that'll provide the models to bring you up to 14-strong in both units. Your hero leads one, the sorcerer leads the other. You could even give the sorcerer an enchanted shield if you like-- it's inexpensive and he's as good a fighter as any of your unit champions (which is quite good, to be fair), so you might as well make sure he's got the same save as his unit for the sake of not making him an easier target.

The Knights should probably have full command, too.
Despite the fact that breaking the Warhounds into two groups of 5 makes them combat ineffective, it makes them far superior screens-- and that's what they really excel at-- I'd do that, too.


Anyway, I guess that was a bit more than a little tidbit...haha...

Basically, against Skaven, you're going to use your cheap junky units (read: Warhounds) to screen your warriors against shooting and charges from annoying stuff like the Doomwheel. While they *can* shoot your Warriors over the warhounds, it's a -2 to hit on top of probably being at long range, and another -1 to hit from the Mark, so they're pretty safe behind the dogs. The dogs then become a target, so they'll panic and run through your Warriors when they break. That's fine-- you've got excellent leadership and re-roll failed panic checks for being Chaos. Basically, by virtue of doing their job, they should naturally get out of the way in time for your Warriors to charge. If not... hey, the dogs can be a first wave and maybe take a couple rats with 'em. Either way, the Warriors are protected from shooting.

Then you just wade into their ranks, and start chopping. There honestly aren't a lot of hard and fast tactics for it-- once you're within about 11'' of the enemy, the army does what it needs to do without a lot of guidance on your part by virtue of being drunk on violence. The trick is making sure your charges are set up correctly, and timing everything so you don't get countercharged in a way that's disadvantageous. By that, I mean, you don't want someone snapping you on both flanks-- one is actually ok though, because you'll make up the combat resolution difference with the additional attacks you'll throw at the unit in question, in my experience.

As far as target selection goes, you basically want your Marauders to handle the doomwheel-- they'll be stubborn against it for a couple turns, and they certainly don't care about its psychological effects. Flails will beat the everliving fool out of it, too--especially with two attacks apiece from the mark. Your Warriors ought to be headed towards the enemy battle line in general-- they just need to get into combat. What they actually engage-- Clanrats, Plague Monks, or Stormvermin-- is largely irrelevant, because they're going to absolutely MURDER them. The Clanrats and the Plague Monks are certainly easier targets, though-- the Stormvermin are WS4, so the mark of Nurgle is pretty much ineffective against them.

I'd have your Knights try to swing out to one side and intercept the Rat Ogres, which are ideally suited to flanking since they're M6 and pretty tough for what they are. Once the Knights blow through them, you're free to have the Knights ride around the back of the Skaven battle line and clean up things like the Jezzails or hit a flank of an engaged unit just to let your warriors move on to their next target.

Nurgle...nurfed 07-31-10 06:09 PM

Don't ever field multi wound models to kill a Doomwheel, it's shots do D6 wounds each. I use my Doomwheel to hunt multi wound models :P


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