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Shadow Hawk 05-30-10 10:50 AM

The thing is, racism does still exist, racist jokes are even making it worse.
It's ok for racism to be joked about, but not ok to have racist jokes.
There is a difference between shows being pointless and actually offending someone.

Jack Jack 05-30-10 02:00 PM

As said by, Guy Nantel : "si on s'empêche de rire d'eux, c'est comme si on avouait qu'ils sont pas comme nous autres"

( If we stop ourselves from laughing at someone, it's like if we acknowledge that he's different, not like us. This is assuming that we enjoy lauging at ourselves, or find it otherwise acceptable ).

And a show can be offensive by being pointless. Like Varakir said : people get offended for a lot of reasons, and refraining to offend everybody is a difficult endeavour (understatement).

For exemple, (slice of life) one of my fetichism is bondage. Then I learned that one of my best friend was raped by being bound to a bed. For a time, I felt my fantasies where innapropriate (and such, porn material catering to my fantasies also were). And then, I realised this : If we were to stop having sex in all the ways that could ressemble an actual rape, we would have ceased to exist long ago for lack of children.

If we stop to film things that could shock or offend someone, we won't have enough shows to fill a single hour grid.

Black people, Italian people, Jewish people, Accused Frogs, People victim of rape, physical abuse, Poor people, rich people, famous people, homeless people, mentally challenged people, handicapped people, children, adults, eldery, monoparental women, women in general, men in general, Gay people, Emo, rockers, Gothics, Geeks, fangirls, fanboys, warhammer players. What are we going to laugh about if we stop laughing about all these people? If we stop laughing at anything one of these group could consider a personal attack? Si on s'empêche de rire d'eux, c'est comme si on avouait qu'ils sont pas comme nous autres.

You know what game is very racist? Pool! You know what ball nobody wants to touch? that's right, the black ball. Which ball always end up knocking it down in a corner? The White. This game is racist I tell you.

As for racism, I know it exist, I find that unfortunate. Of course racism has to be illegal. But there should be no reason why editors can't publish books like Mein Kampf without the "this book is racist, racism is bad!" label. It's like thinking that people are morons.

MRINCREDIBLE 05-30-10 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eviltim (Post 639631)
I think the main point about Jokes, is that alot of people do not see the difference between "A Joke that is Racist" and "A Joke about Racism"

Oh and incase you didnt know, the old "I'm not racist, my best friend is/ some of my friends are... etc, etc," is actually infact racist!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Hawk (Post 641732)
I don't like racism, whether it's funny or not. Racism is never funny. Never.

im white, but my gf is mixed race, so racism is fucking annoying. jokes that take the piss out of racists/racism are perfectly acceptable. but obviously racist jokes fuck me off. i mean, let say (and its happened once) someone who doesnt know my gf is mixed race and makes a racist jive. i'll be annoyed inside but i'll let them know and USUALLY they see why they should refrain from those comments. but, i have had my mates brother walk in to a room and make the most pointless racist jive (definatly aimed to make someone laugh) and all it did was make me fucking livid and stare his 30 yr old brother in the face and tell him my gf was mixed race. as he was a racist i expected/wanted to fight. but he just wallowed in his own shitty self, saying nothing. the majority of racists are cowards that say all this stuff, then when you confront them they drop a log in thier trousers. i agree that racists/racism should be laughed AT. but laughing at it, doesnt particularly make you racist. that majority of words that my gf and her family know about they just think are really silly remarks. just like how i percieve 'cracker' as a racist joke about me. all i'd say is 'cheers' lol. the more people see how ridiculous racists/racism are, the quicker it'll die out and we'll all laugh at the silly people who thought that if your a particular skin tone, your better/worse than someone of a different ethinicity.

MRINCREDIBLE 05-30-10 11:14 PM

also to add i think it depend on the way you use certain material. any way/form of being derogatory (spelt wrong) i.e. saying here is a black guy, he lives here. - thats just telling it like it is, but if your being derogatory i.e. adding a racist comment, or something in particular that digs at someones ethinicity i.e. adding bastard, fucking, cunt just before 'black' in that sentence would be taken offensively. obviously becuase if this black guy was a cunt theres no need to add the skin tone because cunt is a good enough descrption for a an annoying man. like what the wriathlord guy said 'he was a useless fucking cock' - no racism or derogatory words mixed with ethnic ties to form racism.

Jack Jack 05-31-10 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRINCREDIBLE (Post 643069)
im white, but my gf is mixed race, so racism is fucking annoying. jokes that take the piss out of racists/racism are perfectly acceptable. but obviously racist jokes fuck me off. i mean, let say (and its happened once) someone who doesnt know my gf is mixed race and makes a racist jive. i'll be annoyed inside but i'll let them know and USUALLY they see why they should refrain from those comments. but, i have had my mates brother walk in to a room and make the most pointless racist jive (definatly aimed to make someone laugh) and all it did was make me fucking livid and stare his 30 yr old brother in the face and tell him my gf was mixed race. as he was a racist i expected/wanted to fight. but he just wallowed in his own shitty self, saying nothing. the majority of racists are cowards that say all this stuff, then when you confront them they drop a log in thier trousers. i agree that racists/racism should be laughed AT. but laughing at it, doesnt particularly make you racist. that majority of words that my gf and her family know about they just think are really silly remarks. just like how i percieve 'cracker' as a racist joke about me. all i'd say is 'cheers' lol. the more people see how ridiculous racists/racism are, the quicker it'll die out and we'll all laugh at the silly people who thought that if your a particular skin tone, your better/worse than someone of a different ethinicity.

Maybe he did not intended to offend you and was surprised, shocked to see you react so badly. If that is the case, from his point of view, you are the guy trying to pick a fight for no appropriately explored reason.

Once I was invited to a party. We were a bunch of guys playing games in a basement with a lone girl. So, I started making misogynist/sexists comments on everything, just for the fun of it. Very funny stuff, not just the cheap easy stuff you hear most of the time. Stuff that can actually genuinely make you laugh if you have the good sense to just forget that the joke laughs at you, then you can laugh with it. It was witty, it was well-timed.

She attacked me. She litterally jumped on me and the guys had to seize her for fear that she would actually kill me. She did not had the time to touch me, and I thought she knew I knew she knew that there was just no way I was really thinking these things. Naturally, she was just pretending to attack me to mess with our heads. Thinking that she would actually be offended would have been an insult to her intelligence I thought. So I said :

- See what she does? Absolutely no control on her emotions, and bad tempered. Typically feminine.

She attacked again. This time, she hit me. This time, it actually hurt. Of course, she was still pretending I thought. She did not mean to hurt. She just figured I would be "man" enough to take it.

- Dude, your girl is hot care to lend her to me one of these nights I feel lonely? As I managed to restrain her.

She spat on my face.

- Jack, I think she's really angry, said my chum.
- Don't be silly, she's pretending to be, there's no way she'd be stupid enough to even consider that these insults were anywhere near what I truly feel about women.
- I hate you, you sexist bastard. She replied.
- Then you are an idiot. No one in this room would be offended if I called them negroes (As a matter of fact, I am white, she is, and the others were all black).

I never apologized. She still hate me. Her loss. Even today, I think that I did nothing wrong. She took my words at face value when they were never intended to be so. She's the one who misunderstood the situation. She's the one who chose to get offended when she could have chosen not to be.

From my point of view, she's the one who attacked first. From what I heard of your story, maybe from this guy's point of view, you are the one who attacked first.

As for Mr Incredible's second post, it depends if you are talking to other people or if you are insulting the person directly. When I want to hurt people's feelings, I will make a reference to whatever social group they are in, because there's a good chance they will feel the insult more.

But you see, I do not have the power to harm with words. You give me the power to harm you with my words. If you have not given me this power, there's nothing I can say that will harm you. You are responsible.

MRINCREDIBLE 05-31-10 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 643153)
Maybe he did not intended to offend you and was surprised, shocked to see you react so badly. If that is the case, from his point of view, you are the guy trying to pick a fight for no appropriately explored reason.

Once I was invited to a party. We were a bunch of guys playing games in a basement with a lone girl. So, I started making misogynist/sexists comments on everything, just for the fun of it. Very funny stuff, not just the cheap easy stuff you hear most of the time. Stuff that can actually genuinely make you laugh if you have the good sense to just forget that the joke laughs at you, then you can laugh with it. It was witty, it was well-timed.

She attacked me. She litterally jumped on me and the guys had to seize her for fear that she would actually kill me. She did not had the time to touch me, and I thought she knew I knew she knew that there was just no way I was really thinking these things. Naturally, she was just pretending to attack me to mess with our heads. Thinking that she would actually be offended would have been an insult to her intelligence I thought. So I said :

- See what she does? Absolutely no control on her emotions, and bad tempered. Typically feminine.

She attacked again. This time, she hit me. This time, it actually hurt. Of course, she was still pretending I thought. She did not mean to hurt. She just figured I would be "man" enough to take it.

- Dude, your girl is hot care to lend her to me one of these nights I feel lonely? As I managed to restrain her.

She spat on my face.

- Jack, I think she's really angry, said my chum.
- Don't be silly, she's pretending to be, there's no way she'd be stupid enough to even consider that these insults were anywhere near what I truly feel about women.
- I hate you, you sexist bastard. She replied.
- Then you are an idiot. No one in this room would be offended if I called them negroes (As a matter of fact, I am white, she is, and the others were all black).

I never apologized. She still hate me. Her loss. Even today, I think that I did nothing wrong. She took my words at face value when they were never intended to be so. She's the one who misunderstood the situation. She's the one who chose to get offended when she could have chosen not to be.

From my point of view, she's the one who attacked first. From what I heard of your story, maybe from this guy's point of view, you are the one who attacked first.

As for Mr Incredible's second post, it depends if you are talking to other people or if you are insulting the person directly. When I want to hurt people's feelings, I will make a reference to whatever social group they are in, because there's a good chance they will feel the insult more.

But you see, I do not have the power to harm with words. You give me the power to harm you with my words. If you have not given me this power, there's nothing I can say that will harm you. You are responsible.

firstly i wasnt picking a fight, the anger i felt made me want to fight but i was merely confronting him. and i DEFINATLEY dont feel i was in the wrong to confront him.
from what i gather you are saying, your telling everyone that if you want to belittle someone, its thier fault if they get offended and react? seems strange because if i said something to offend someone and they were clearly fucked off. i'd go 'sorry' and refrain from those types of comments in the future. its not about having free speech or the people being wrongly offended its just a case of manners lol or common courtesy to just go 'nah i wont say it, becasue im just feeding the flames' i mean yeah there are some things that can be said that mean nothing but get taken wrongly like the term 'black bin bag' was taken wrongly by someone here becasue he felt its racist. but even i will say that its completly ridiculous to think a bin bags' color was given its name to pick on black people.

Jack Jack 05-31-10 03:32 PM

What is strange is to automatically assume that people are agressive.

From my own experience, people rarely want to pick a fight and there are almost always another reason when they act mean. When people actually do want to pick a fight, that is the exception.

Most of the times, a fight start because of a misunderstanding, it's very rare to meet genuine hate. I know it exist. Usually in children. Most grown adults I know live by respect and a live-and-let-live attitude (with the occasionnal not-in-my-backyard).

MRINCREDIBLE 05-31-10 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 643526)
What is strange is to automatically assume that people are agressive.

From my own experience, people rarely want to pick a fight and there are almost always another reason when they act mean. When people actually do want to pick a fight, that is the exception.

Most of the times, a fight start because of a misunderstanding, it's very rare to meet genuine hate. I know it exist. Usually in children. Most grown adults I know live by respect and a live-and-let-live attitude (with the occasionnal not-in-my-backyard).

and your completely right, fighting is no way to settle a dispute, which is why i didnt. i must have worded it wrong but what i meant was i expected the racist guy to start the fight (usually because of what you haer racists being like. like aggressive and starting fights etc etc) as i said before theres no way someone can know that thier words would be percieved as aggresive or offensive. but when they know, and they still do it, it gets personal. maily becuase if they are aware of your ethnic background (or your gf's for that matter) but continue to take the piss, theres no valid reason why they did it. even if they accidentally said something derogatory, it still bodes the question 'why did they even say it?'

its just better to go around the subject than risk offending someone. after all, most people would rather make freinds than enemies.

also, im not having a go at you or anything. typed words can be read wrongly.

Jack Jack 05-31-10 05:30 PM

I think ethnic jokes are funny. I like Adam Sandlers' movie. You know, people getting hurt?

It's like Felix Leclerc said : Le plaisir de l'un, c'est de voir l'autre se casser le cou (Litterally : One's fun is seeing the other break his neck).

This is how I view ethnic jokes. There all about seeing imagining other people get hurt or sucking in some way. Seen that way, they're hilarious.

I feel absolutely no shame telling a racist (which is the same as ethnic) joke, even to someone of that race. On the contrary, I think not being afraid to is evidence that we consider us to be part of their group and them to be part of ours. That's why I consider that I also have the "N word priviledge".

Because Ebony and Ivory live together in perfect harmony, Side by side on my piano keyboard.

And my piano is telling jokes.

MRINCREDIBLE 05-31-10 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 643596)
I think ethnic jokes are funny. I like Adam Sandlers' movie. You know, people getting hurt?

It's like Felix Leclerc said : Le plaisir de l'un, c'est de voir l'autre se casser le cou (Litterally : One's fun is seeing the other break his neck).

This is how I view ethnic jokes. There all about seeing imagining other people get hurt or sucking in some way. Seen that way, they're hilarious.

I feel absolutely no shame telling a racist (which is the same as ethnic) joke, even to someone of that race. On the contrary, I think not being afraid to is evidence that we consider us to be part of their group and them to be part of ours. That's why I consider that I also have the "N word priviledge".

Because around Ebony and Ivory live together in perfect harmony, Side by side on my piano keyboard.

And my piano is telling jokes.

i havent seen many of adam sandlers films. mainly becuase i dont find him funny lol.
you see ethnic jokes as other people (being the different ethnicities from yourself) as being funny because they are about these different races getting hurt or sucking on some way?? some may see that as being racist. but i dont know exactly what you mean by this to even know what you mean lol
again from what you say it seems like your giving a good reason to be 'a little bit racist' and showing that you arent afraid to tell a black guy he is black or use the 'n word' because you have more of a priviledge to over someone else?
i dont think anyone has a particular priviledge to use derogatory words to anyone else. i live in a free country where free speech is conveyed in all aspects, from inciting racial hatred to shouting out about how good terrorism is. but free speech doesnt give others the right to go overboard. i choose not to because i know its offensive and counter-productive. i think thats why free speech exists because there are those who dont really need to be restrained because the majority of the public just dont do it.

and i dont think piano keys are particularly racist lol

toalewa850 05-31-10 09:34 PM

I was called racist once ,but other than that I've never really had an encounter of racism.

Jack Jack 06-01-10 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRINCREDIBLE (Post 643710)
you see ethnic jokes as other people (being the different ethnicities from yourself) as being funny because they are about these different races getting hurt or sucking on some way?? some may see that as being racist. but i dont know exactly what you mean by this to even know what you mean lol.

again from what you say it seems like your giving a good reason to be 'a little bit racist' and showing that you arent afraid to tell a black guy he is black or use the 'n word' because you have more of a priviledge to over someone else?
i dont think anyone has a particular priviledge to use derogatory words to anyone else.

and i dont think piano keys are particularly racist lol

1) racist jokes are funny because they are about people getting hurt or otherwise sucking in some way. The fact that it happens to people of a different race than me is irrelevant. It adds nothing to the humour, but it should not reduce it in any way either.

2) It's okay to make fun of other group of people just in the same way it's okay for these people to make fun of mine. I'm a white geek/social science student student /lifeguard/nationalist/humanist/atheist/social democrat/philosopher-and-psychologist-in-training. So it should be A-okay if a made a joke on, say, social science students right? A jew can make a joke on jews and nobody would accuse him of being racist right? I am not racist. You are not. So why should the jews be the only one allowed to make a joke on jews? I wanna make jokes on jews too! Since both of us are not racist, we ackowledge that there is no fundamental difference between me and a jew, so if it's acceptable for a jew to make fun of jews, then it's acceptable for me to make fun of jews.

3) That was a song from Paul McCartney.

MRINCREDIBLE 06-01-10 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 643903)
1) racist jokes are funny because they are about people getting hurt or otherwise sucking in some way. The fact that it happens to people of a different race than me is irrelevant. It adds nothing to the humour, but it should not reduce it in any way either.

Racist jokes are usually about putting other cultures/creeds down and being nasty. but from what i gather your saying about racist jokes, they dont sound particularly racist. thus i can sort of agree if i think you mean what i think you mean.

2) It's okay to make fun of other group of people just in the same way it's okay for these people to make fun of mine. I'm a white geek/social science student student /lifeguard/nationalist/humanist/atheist/social democrat/philosopher-and-psychologist-in-training. So it should be A-okay if a made a joke on, say, social science students right? A jew can make a joke on jews and nobody would accuse him of being racist right? I am not racist. You are not. So why should the jews be the only one allowed to make a joke on jews? I wanna make jokes on jews too! Since both of us are not racist, we ackowledge that there is no fundamental difference between me and a jew, so if it's acceptable for a jew to make fun of jews, then it's acceptable for me to make fun of jews.

i can see you logic, in saying that we are all equal and as this is the case we should all take things light heartedly. BUT, there are some people who take offense to certain things. like some canadians find south park offensive. if you recited a quote from that and it annoyed them, you'd be courteous and think twice about saying it the next time. im not accusing you of being a racist lol which it seems you might think i am. im just merely explaining that racism is wrong, and that being nice to people and respecting the boundries of what you can say (not that respecting someones boundries makes you a weaker person, or that it makes you shameful or afraid) is a better option than just making enemies. and a jewish man making a joke to another jew, might be taken wrongly if someone who isnt jewish said it. its not that its thier fault for being jewish that they should get offended is it? when the world accepts we are all equal and everybody gets on then people can probably joke about it freely. but its just better to show a little respect to others. and we both know that. but regardless, everything i have said is my opinion, and your a thousand odd miles away and can easily tell me to fuck off lmao

3) That was a song from Paul McCartney.

dunno lol, McCartney = lord of the dance, but i can harldy remember any songs he's doen bar the james bond one and the one he did with michael jackson (still cant even remember the names!)

Jack Jack 06-01-10 03:02 PM

You see, there's a network where I live, Radio-Canada, the french version of Canadian Broadcast Corporation, that sometimes host shows that offend people.

Once, they had a sketch about local journalist Dennis Lévesque, presented as "the only journalist that got worse when he left TQS (which was a so bad it's horrible channel when it came to journalism)", In this parody, they were mocking Lévesque's ineptitude as a journalist by having him interview Barack Obama and all the questions in the interview were : Is this black people stereotype true? (Such as, is it true you black people have a large penis?).

Radio Canada then received complaint because the show hosting that sketch was supposedly racist. Mike ward, a humorist (stand-up comedian) once made a joke where he said : "These guys at the ministery of income are crazy : when you don't pay your taxes, they kidnap your kids, I think it's them who have little Cédricka Provencher (who is a little girl gone missing from a couple of years now)". Then, Mike Ward received death threats because of how cold hearted he was toward the pain of Cédricka's parents.

These are perfect exemple of when people actively offend themselves after seeing something on tv.

And you know what? I doubt that people get offended when they see genuine racism. As anyone ever felt offended when they read Mein kampf? Or anything written before 1850 ? When something is genuinely racist, genuinely hateful, it get so over the top it's very hard to take seriously.

And then, Are you going to tell me that we have to ban, say, To Kill a Mocking Bird, or Mississipi Burning because there is racism in these works? Likewise, I find it ridiculous that now, publications of Tintin in Congo requires a disclaimer saying it's racist and racism is unnacceptable.

MRINCREDIBLE 06-02-10 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 644261)
You see, there's a network where I live, Radio-Canada, the french version of Canadian Broadcast Corporation, that sometimes host shows that offend people.

Once, they had a sketch about local journalist Dennis Lévesque, presented as "the only journalist that got worse when he left TQS (which was a so bad it's horrible channel when it came to journalism)", In this parody, they were mocking Lévesque's ineptitude as a journalist by having him interview Barack Obama and all the questions in the interview were : Is this black people stereotype true? (Such as, is it true you black people have a large penis?).

Radio Canada then received complaint because the show hosting that sketch was supposedly racist. Mike ward, a humorist (stand-up comedian) once made a joke where he said : "These guys at the ministery of income are crazy : when you don't pay your taxes, they kidnap your kids, I think it's them who have little Cédricka Provencher (who is a little girl gone missing from a couple of years now)". Then, Mike Ward received death threats because of how cold hearted he was toward the pain of Cédricka's parents.

These are perfect exemple of when people actively offend themselves after seeing something on tv.

And you know what? I doubt that people get offended when they see genuine racism. As anyone ever felt offended when they read Mein kampf? Or anything written before 1850 ? When something is genuinely racist, genuinely hateful, it get so over the top it's very hard to take seriously.

And then, Are you going to tell me that we have to ban, say, To Kill a Mocking Bird, or Mississipi Burning because there is racism in these works? Likewise, I find it ridiculous that now, publications of Tintin in Congo requires a disclaimer saying it's racist and racism is unnacceptable.

all of what you said there i dont think is racist at all. i can understand with something like that, you'd see it as the offended party kicking off over something so miniscule. and all of that is miniscule. and yes not many people get offended by racism, even if its thought they should. but it must be quite sound in canada, because from my experience of racism in the uk, its genuine hate, spurred from a lack of education. for example, parents saying 'indians taking our jobs' when if they were properly educated, the children (when i say children i mean outspoken teenagers) would realise, theres no 'invasion of the indians' just they were asked to come to britain after the war to run cornershops, because the original owners died and the countries that were asked were part of the commonwealth.
obviously stuff like tintin (which i loved as a kid) cant be helped, it was published when it didnt seem wrong to draw a black guy, pitch black, with red lips. which is completely wrong as they dont look like that. - maybe this is an example of it going way over the top??. if you did it now, people would kick off. but thats like if other countries drew english people in bowler hats and buck toothed, not everyone would get offended but a few would. thats the point im getting at, its just easier to not be racist because it doesnt do anything but piss people off.

MRINCREDIBLE 06-02-10 08:27 AM

but obviously if i was with a freind from a particular ethnic background and someone made the effort to walk up to them and be racist, its not going to go down well

Jack Jack 06-02-10 04:56 PM

Racism exist everywhere. However, it has been a point of pride among Canadians that we are tolerant. So when we find a racist, homophobe, etc. Watch out. Racism is extremely predjudiced, to the point where we have the opposite problem. It's not normal that the papers will talk for three days only about how the Bye-bye ( a live humour show on New-Year's Eve that pokes fun of things that happened in the last year ) was allegedly racist. It's not normal that it's so difficult to make fun of any social group.

( I think it's time to close that tangent).

Back at the OP, All discrimination is bad. All of it. What really infuriates me, is such a thing as hiring quotas : some profession, such as the police, has to hire the same percentage of women and visible minority that they exist in society. I find their very existence condescending. It's as if we acknowledge that they have less chance than a white male to get the job if they try. But you know what? maybe they don't want the job in the same proportion that they exist in society. Besides, hiring someone because of his skin color, that means someone else gets not hired because of his skin color. When you have ten slots for a job, if you give two to people only because they are black, then somebody who is more competent does not get the job. And yes, more competent, if the non-black was less competent, you would have chosen the black guy because of his competence, or randomly if both their competence were even.

MRINCREDIBLE 06-02-10 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 645022)
Racism exist everywhere. However, it has been a point of pride among Canadians that we are tolerant. So when we find a racist, homophobe, etc. Watch out. Racism is extremely predjudiced, to the point where we have the opposite problem. It's not normal that the papers will talk for three days only about how the Bye-bye ( a live humour show on New-Year's Eve that pokes fun of things that happened in the last year ) was allegedly racist. It's not normal that it's so difficult to make fun of any social group.

( I think it's time to close that tangent).

Back at the OP, All discrimination is bad. All of it. What really infuriates me, is such a thing as hiring quotas : some profession, such as the police, has to hire the same percentage of women and visible minority that they exist in society. I find their very existence condescending. It's as if we acknowledge that they have less chance than a white male to get the job if they try. But you know what? maybe they don't want the job in the same proportion that they exist in society. Besides, hiring someone because of his skin color, that means someone else gets not hired because of his skin color. When you have ten slots for a job, if you give two to people only because they are black, then somebody who is more competent does not get the job. And yes, more competent, if the non-black was less competent, you would have chosen the black guy because of his competence, or randomly if both their competence were even.

agreed! that is a good point, in a way i suppose its sort of forcing an ethnic minority into a particular job. on the tv the other day the media were going 'oooo not many women in the conservative party.... tut tut.!' but i didnt think thats sexist just maybe women dont like the conservative party (i know i dont)

Jack Jack 06-03-10 12:30 AM

It's not really a question of forcing anyone, after all, they chose their candidates from the applicants.

But, hiring someone because of his race is just as bad as not hiring someone because of his race. If you hire someone because he's black, then somebody is losing the job because he's not black. And that is just as bad.

MRINCREDIBLE 06-03-10 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 645369)
It's not really a question of forcing anyone, after all, they chose their candidates from the applicants.

But, hiring someone because of his race is just as bad as not hiring someone because of his race. If you hire someone because he's black, then somebody is losing the job because he's not black. And that is just as bad.

definatley

Cocakoala 06-04-10 01:36 AM

I believe that something said is only racist/sexist/whatverist if the person saying it is intending to be mean about who they are saying it about. If somebody tells a racist joke to try and be funny that does not make them a racist, the joke may be innapropriate for the current audience. It may offend whoever hears it but I believe that if the person saying it had good intentions then they cannot be blamed for other people getting offended. The person saying it can however be blamed for being an idiot who can't judge when certain jokes are appropriate or not.

If somebody says something and they are trying to put somebody down because of their race/gender/sexual preferances or say that a specific type of person is inferior to another just because of their skin colour ect. Then they ARE a racist and that is wrong. They should not do that under any circumstance.

If a comedian says something then it will usually offend someone somewhere about something silly and odd. Does this mean that commedians should not say anything to avoid causing upset to a few people? I don't think it should mean that.

Yes I also agree that employing somebody BECAUSE they are black to even things out in the workplace is discriminating against another person who may have been white and may have been a better choice. However because of their skin colour they were not picked even though they may have been the better choice. That annoys me so much how to stop people from thinking an employer is discriminating they have to discriminate.

On the subject of wether something like a TV program is being offensive I think the label offensive is like the label funny or boring or interesting. It's just what you think of it. I may take offense at something but someone else may not take offense at it just like I may find family guy hillarious but someone else may think its stupid and unfunny.

I have friends who are of different races to me. I know what I can say to them. If they decide they dont like what I am saying I would stop. Alot of it is just simple common sense.

Jack Jack 06-04-10 03:57 AM

I hate common sense. It is not rigorous enough, not exact. I find using the expression "common sense" to indicate a lack of intelligence at worst, or a lack of intellectual work at best.

If you can't find hard rules behind something you should do, you haven't tought about it enough. If after having thought about it, you still can't, you're just not smart enough to figure it out.

Not to offend people, use common sense. Sorry, but that does not cut it. Of course this "common sense" can help you not offend people.

Here is what common sense can do for you :

Have a good relationship with your father/mother
Have a good relationship with your sibling
Raise your kids
Interract with someone else's kids
Get laid
Tell a joke
Obtain and maintain a good reputation
Get a job
Get a promotion
Study
Cook food
Eat food properly
Find the perfect gift for virtually anybody
Use a phone
Play a game of warhammer while you're at it?
Not get robbed
See through a scam
Find other uses of common sense that can be added to this list.

Wow, that's such a versatile process of thought. I wish I had it (!).
The truth is, it's not because you don't know about what's happening in your brain that you can just say it's "common sense". Chances are, you were not born with the ability to do it. If you were not born with the ability to do it, then it is most likely a custom and not common sense.

This is my rant on common sense.

Cocakoala 06-04-10 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 646195)
The truth is, it's not because you don't know about what's happening in your brain that you can just say it's "common sense". Chances are, you were not born with the ability to do it. If you were not born with the ability to do it, then it is most likely a custom and not common sense.

That is actually a very good argument.

What I was just trying to say was basically alot of people do have the ability to know when something is appropriate. So we should not assume that everybody saying racist remarks is trying to be mean. There are obviously exeptions to this. Alot of the people who don't know if something is appropriate may not have had previous experience in similar situations. Or their judgement may be wrong based on other experiences.

Jack Jack 06-04-10 04:01 PM

Indeed. I wrote this sentence because I can't possibly post a reply that consist of a single word.

Catpain Rich 06-04-10 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 646532)
Indeed. I wrote this sentence because I can't possibly post a reply that consist of a single word.

Affirmative.

moo 06-05-10 10:16 AM

Just do what i do and hate everyone equally ;)

LTP 06-05-10 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moo (Post 647097)
Just do what i do and hate everyone equally ;)

What moo said...:biggrin:

Jack Jack 06-05-10 09:53 PM

I think being misantropic is actually worse than being misoginist or racist. The problem is not the injustice : it's the hate.

Not everyone agree thought.

Serpion5 06-06-10 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 647443)
I think being misantropic is actually worse than being misoginist or racist. The problem is not the injustice : it's the hate.

Not everyone agree thought.

Cannot agree. Misanthrope is who I am! :wacko:

Embrace the Hate! :victory:

Jack Jack 06-06-10 01:44 PM

I don't understand how being misantropic prevent you in any way from thinking misantropia is wrong. I must say, the fact that you think that way is even much much worse than misantropia itself.

moo 06-07-10 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 647443)
I think being misantropic is actually worse than being misoginist or racist. The problem is not the injustice : it's the hate.

Not everyone agree thought.

Shouldn't always take things on forums so seriously. Especially when joking smiley faces are added.

Serpion5 06-07-10 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 647904)
I don't understand how being misantropic prevent you in any way from thinking misantropia is wrong. I must say, the fact that you think that way is even much much worse than misantropia itself.

Misanthropia is not wrong. It is an opinion, as valid as any other. You don`t have to understand. I could tell you all about myself (don`t worry I won`t) and you might be horrified by the way I think, but it will not change me. I do not believe my opinions are worth more than anyone else`s, just as I don`t think theirs are worth more than mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moo (Post 648505)
Shouldn't always take things on forums so seriously. Especially when joking smiley faces are added.

Maybe you were joking, I was not, actually. I don`t exclusively use smilies to denote jokes, I use them because they amuse me. :giggle::grin::sarcastichand:



EDIT: This has gone over to relativism. Sorry.

Jack Jack 06-07-10 02:28 PM

I did not assume that misantrhopia is wrong. But you cannot disregard the idea that it might be wrong simply because you are a misanthrope. That is what I wanted to say.

Holmstrom 06-07-10 03:19 PM

Misanthropy, as well as nihilistic tenancies, is the right of any being to uphold. However, I feel these are some of the most irresponsible habits to indulge ones self in as these people often ignore any opportunity to make Humanity better. Instead they gloat at problems without offering any form of solution in most cases, and chose to insulate themselves from our species problems. As such they add to the reasons why they hate the world.

What I mean by this is not that they should help out some mentally barren yokel in the street, but do what they can to contribute to a better tomorrow for our species. These people who lack the drive and sense of responsibility in the matter sicken me. If you don't like the way the world looks, congratulations. You have a ton of work to do. Better get started. Our descendants should always be at the forefronts of our minds. We are by no means in a comfortable position to be thinking for ourselves in the now.

Want to help? Become proactive in your cause. Learn a useful scientific skill. Join or form a think-tank if you can't do the former. Let your voice be heard that there are problems in our civilization. Don't skulk around in the shadows waiting for the universe to pamper our species like a loving mother. The universe is a mother who has abandoned us to fend for ourselves a long, long time ago. What I feel is further unfortunate is that this is often a 'stepping stone' people take after making stunning realizations about society. They become so entwined with hatred of how terrible a species we really are that they abandon all hope of making Humanity great.

It's David vs. Goliath, if you forgive the cliche. The places where people can live with their head under the sand are getting fewer and further between. Soon, I imagine, there will only be World of Warcraft and the cesspool that is 4chan.

Anyway, I know this conversation has taken a huge turn off topic, but I wanted to lend my input to this brief matter.

Emet, Paladin of Truth 06-07-10 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 647904)
I don't understand how being misantropic prevent you in any way from thinking misantropia is wrong.

if you do not believe misanthropia is right, you are not a misanthrope.

therefore, if you are a misanthrope, you must believe misanthropy is right.

Jack Jack 06-07-10 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emet, Paladin of Truth (Post 649018)
if you do not believe misanthropia is right, you are not a misanthrope.

therefore, if you are a misanthrope, you must believe misanthropy is right.

While what you said is logically sufficient, it is not acceptable. You can be a misanthrope while acknowledging it is wrong. You can hate everyone, and yet still hate yourself for hating everyone.

Holmstrom 06-07-10 08:11 PM

Yeah. Another example would be someone who smokes cigarettes a lot, but acknowledges that it's unhealthy for him or her.

(Remember this is purely an example, not comparing misanthropy to a smoking habit for those who would otherwise spawn a subsidiary argument base upon that statement. If you want to compare apples to monkey wrenches like that, I'd suggest another forum.)

While the general norm for mindsets is that the user sees that this is the 'right way to think', often with stubborn/ignorant consequences for such, there are plenty of people who know their way of thinking isn't the 'right way to think'.

Emet, Paladin of Truth 06-08-10 07:23 PM

if you say that misanthroia is wrong, you will be forced to give non-misanthropic reasons in defense of it.

if you give non-misanthropic reasons, and you belive them, you cannot be a misanthrope.

if you do not believe those reasons, then you don't beleive misanthropia is wrong either. (because you have no arguement for it that you believe)

if you don't believe me, try to give a misanthropic arguement for philanthropy.

blagh... I'm not being clear...

trying again:

believing misanthropia is wrong is a philanthropic stance, so because you cannot be both misanthropic and philanthropic, if you believe misanthropia is wrong you cannot be fully misanthropic.

so we have the smoking example.

the smoker says "smoking is wrong" then takes a puff. the smoker cannot fully be a smoker. he is either 1) saying something he doesn't really believe or 2) trying to quit (however half-heartedly or unsuccessfully).

the differance here is that misanthropia is a thought, not an action.

so it would be like saying I am a christian who doesn't believe in christianity- if i do not believe in Christianity, I am not a christian by definition.

sorry for bringing religeon into it, but I used it because it was a well-known school of thought. I could just as well have said Utilitarianism, or Darwinism, or Perspectivism, or, yes, misanthropy.

Jack Jack 06-09-10 12:33 AM

People are stupid. They are idiots, really. They are so dumb that they do not deserve your hate, they can't help it. It's not their fault if they are so stupid, they are merely victims. You should help them however you can and feel good about it without expecting any kind of positive reinforcement on their part, it will make your world even slightly bette. Otherwise, you will be miserable for nothing. And people are not good enough to deserve that you suffer.

This, my friend, is a misanthropic argument for philanthropy. Or, if you will, a misanthropic argument against misanthropy.

There you go.

Holmstrom 06-09-10 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 650312)
People are stupid. They are idiots, really. They are so dumb that they do not deserve your hate, they can't help it. It's not their fault if they are so stupid, they are merely victims. You should help them however you can and feel good about it without expecting any kind of positive reinforcement on their part, it will make your world even slightly bette. Otherwise, you will be miserable for nothing. And people are not good enough to deserve that you suffer.

*Applause.*

Also, yeah, I could have chosen a more relevant example, but when you have 5 pots of coffee flowing through your veins...ShherpepereerreYEEEAAAAAHHHH!!!!!


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