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Shadow Hawk 05-29-10 06:59 AM

TV shows can actually be quite offensive.
Many TV shows make fun of Jewish people constantly, so if you were Jewish you'd be offended. If they use it once you can shrug it off. Two times and you start to think. Three times you start to suspect. More than four times it starts to hurt.

Jack Jack 05-29-10 07:44 PM

So what? even if tv shows are "offensive", they have the right to be and nobody should complain : you can always change channel or turn it off altogether.

It's not like if your gonna get all racist because some tv show told you it was okay. If that was the case, you are a guillible idiot, and any random person on the street could have made you racist. So it's your own fault, it's not the tv's fault.

That's what critical thinking is for.

Marneus Calgar 05-29-10 08:44 PM

Racism is one of those things where there is a thin line between having a small joke between friends. And actually being racist to a persons face. If I'm honest I don't feel comfortable telling racist jokes, because I don't know how people will react, so, I keep them on the hush hush. But, coming from someone who gets the piss taken from them every day, I really don't see the point of being racist, its only skin colour isn't it? At school, there are people from Africa and Poland etc. All of which are nice people, and I happily talk to day in day out. Because they are nice people...

But, the fact is, I come from a quite racist family, my grandparents are in fact some of the most racist people I know, telling me that some polish people are only here to steal jobs etc. But the fact is, they are some of the hardest working people they would know.

Shadow Hawk 05-29-10 08:52 PM

So the TV shows have the right to discriminate against a set of people, but the people have no right to argue or feel offended? TV shows don't have the right to discriminate against someone just for their beliefs/appearances. It's not the fact that the TV shows teach people racism, it's the fact they're racist in the first place. Anyway, turning the TV off does not take the emotional pain away.

If I was to say all people from Montreal (I'm assuming that's where you're from) are unintelligent chimps and start to make fun of them, you wouldn't like it. I can tell right now you'll shrug it off, but if I repeatedly say that, you won't like it. I would also be confronted for saying that about Montrealers(?), but if I was to say something about jews for example on TV, nobody cares, which isn't fair. I actually have nothing against people from Montreal, I'm just using it as an example.

Jack Jack 05-29-10 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Hawk (Post 642429)
So the TV shows have the right to discriminate against a set of people, but the people have no right to argue or feel offended Not saying they have no right, I'm just saying it's very stupid. I feel being stupid is the most important right a human being posess : if we only had the right to do smart things, then we would not have much freedom.? TV shows don't have the right to discriminate against someone just for their beliefs/appearances. It's not the fact that the TV shows teach people racism, it's the fact they're racist there's a huge gap between saying racist things and actually being racist in the first place. Anyway, turning the TV off does not take the emotional pain away No, and this is evidence that you are your own source of emotional pain, exactly what I said : it's not the TV who is offensive, it's you who get offended.

If I was to say all people from Montreal (I'm assuming that's where you're from Laval actually, but no one ever knows where the fuck is Laval (hint : it's 0.1 mile north from Montreal) are unintelligent chimps and start to make fun of them, you wouldn't like it. I can tell right now you'll shrug it off, but if I repeatedly say that, you won't like it Even if I did, that's not your fucking problem. I would also be confronted for saying that about Montrealers(?), but if I was to say something about jews for example on TV, nobody cares I wish they wouldn't, which isn't fair. I actually have nothing against people from Montreal, I'm just using it as an example.

Tell you something : I'm in quite a dilemma : I consider that last sentence of yours as an attack on my intelligence, and on the intelligence of every one on this board. Of course we knew you had nothing against those unintelligent chimps, they're so cute! But if I take offense to it, then I just insulted my own intelligence XD. Good thing I have the right to be stupid.

Shadow Hawk 05-29-10 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642450)
Not saying they have no right, I'm just saying it's very stupid. I feel being stupid is the most important right a human being posess : if we only had the right to do smart things, then we would not have much freedom

So you're saying they have right? I don't understand the 'It's very stupid' part, What is very stupid?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642450)
there's a huge gap between saying racist things and actually being racist

Doesn't saying racist things make you racist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642450)
No, and this is evidence that you are your own source of emotional pain, exactly what I said : it's not the TV who is offensive, it's you who get offendedt

So people get offended for no reason they just think, 'why I feel offended' randomly? No, the TV offends people who then get offended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642450)
Even if I did, that's not your fucking problem

I never said it was my problem, in fact it is your own which is what racism is about

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642450)
I wish they wouldn't

Why not?

Jack Jack 05-29-10 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Hawk (Post 642460)
So you're saying they have right? I don't understand the 'It's very stupid' part, What is very stupid?
To be offended when you probably have better things to do than worry about it. Like say, procrastinating.

Doesn't saying racist things make you racist?
Don't be silly, it's entirely possible to say things you don't believe. Also, most racist people I've seen in fiction are strawmen racist. In fact, I play the strawman misogynist all the time, I find it hilarious to think that some people actually believe the horribly stupid things I say. But women can't understand this because their brain is not wired to do it.

So people get offended for no reason they just think, 'why I feel offended' randomly? No, the TV offends people who then get offended.
No, they (actively) take offense to things they see. But, as the thing they see could also be there without them being offended, (there's the possibility that they would just shrug it off), then it is them who have the control over being offended or not. Moreover, the hard feelings remain even after the source is gone. When I burn myself on something that burns, well once the cause has been removed, I'm no longer burning. I'm still burnt, but not burning. Being offended is different. Once an offending episode is gone, people can, and some will, actively cultivate the rage.

Let me remind you basic causality here : P - Q. It is true when :
Q is always true when P is true.
P is false.

It is false the minute a situation arises when :
P is true and Q is false.

So if it's possible for a show to be "offensive" without someone to be offended, then it is not the show who is responsible for the people to get offended, you have to look elsewhere.


I never said it was my problem, in fact it is your own which is what racism is about Say that again, with clarity : I said you should (not will) not care If I get offended at something you say. In other words : the right thing to do when "you offend" someone is to not care. Are you agreeing with me here? Then why are you finding racist jokes unfunny in the first place?

I wish they wouldn't care about depiction or outright propaganda of racism in movies
Why not?

Because all forms of censorship are bad. The right of someone to say something racist or to promote racism is a right as important as any other right, and does not infringe on anybody's right : promoting racism is not like being racism and harms no one. And it's not making people get racist either : he's not forcing anybody to get racist. Maybe he could seduce Bob into getting racist, but that's Bob's fault for being guillible. And Bob has the right to be guillible by the way.

Varakir 05-30-10 01:02 AM

Quote:

Doesn't saying racist things make you racist?
As Jack Jack pointed out, you can say anything you don't mean or believe. The words are not important at all, it's the people saying them and perceiving them that matter. I could say that I i am thinking about joining a white supremacy group, and if i said it to my wife she would know i was joking. If i said it to my wife whilst we were queuing up at the cinema, then people overhearing this may automatically assume i'm a racist, as they don't know me, and can't interpret my original meaning. TV shows are very rarely intentionally racist, the best of them are usually trying to break down the boundaries, and show how stupid racism is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642036)
There's another thing: what's wrong with swearing in general and children swearing in particular?

What's the fundamental difference between saying Godamnit and Gosh dang it? Or saying "MUrmmbl!" for that matter?

I appreciate this is off topic, but wanted to mention it. I don't think there's anything wrong with swearing at all, again it's just words. But there are people in the world who don't think like this, and i don't think children should be taught swear words until they understand the implications in society.

I don't care if my kids swear when they are older, but i find it irresponsible to expose young children to swearing because of the negative views some people will automatically take if they hear these words. It's unfair on the children as they don't fully grasp why this is.

Shadow Hawk 05-30-10 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642535)
To be offended when you probably have better things to do than worry about it. Like say, procrastinating.

So no-ones allowed to be offended over anything, no matter what the circumstances?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642535)
Don't be silly, it's entirely possible to say things you don't believe

Why say them then? If you don't believe something you wouldn't go round preaching it, like if you were atheist you wouldn't preach God would you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642535)
When I burn myself on something that burns, well once the cause has been removed, I'm no longer burning. I'm still burnt, but not burning. Being offended is different. Once an offending episode is gone, people can, and some will, actively cultivate the rage.

There's a difference between being burnt and being offended. Being burnt is physical and goes away with ease but being offended is psychological and is hard to get rid of as the words you hear play round and round in your head. Also burning is once but it takes a few times to really get offended. If you kept burning yourself in the same spot, that part of you dies and falls away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642535)
So if it's possible for a show to be "offensive" without someone to be offended, then it is not the show who is responsible for the people to get offended, you have to look elsewhere.

So the show isn't offensive therefore the people get offended for no reason then? Like I said, that doesn't happen, the TV show has to be offensive.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642535)
Say that again, with clarity : I said you should (not will) not care If I get offended at something you say. In other words : the right thing to do when "you offend" someone is to not care. Are you agreeing with me here?

How did I agree then? You're not going to purposely offend someone then say sorry are you? You shouldn't even be offending in the first place. Not caring isn't the right thing to do, otherwise you're cold and heartless, even killers must feel some sympathy for their victims. That however does not mean if you offend someone you would have to say sorry to them however

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jack (Post 642535)
Because all forms of censorship are bad. The right of someone to say something racist or to promote racism is a right as important as any other right, and does not infringe on anybody's right : promoting racism is not like being racism and harms no one. And it's not making people get racist either : he's not forcing anybody to get racist. Maybe he could seduce Bob into getting racist, but that's Bob's fault for being guillible. And Bob has the right to be guillible by the way.

What's the difference between promoting racism and being racist? Again, if you were atheist you wouldn't preach God otherwise that would mean you were actually theist.

Promoting racism does harm people if you're saying 'racism is good and all people who look like/believe xyz don't deserve to live' that is really going to hit someone hard.

You talk about rights so much, but tell me, when did one race get the right to persecute another and call them inferior?

Racism isn't just TV racism is it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/4477156.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8537861.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/dec/15/race.world
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ing-spree.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence
http://balder.org/articles/hatespeec...der-Sweden.php

I could find loads more, but that will do for now

Varakir 05-30-10 09:52 AM

You seem to think we're saying racism is fine, and saying racist things is fine. We aren't and it's not.

Racism needs to be in the public eye, and it needs to be able to be joked about. If it wasn't then racism would still exist, and it would harbour in a worse way.

Marneus mentioned that he has racist family, and this is true of many people. If Racism isn't in the public eye and discussed, joked about, etc etc then their only influence of racism comes directly from the people around them, and they may not appreciate the impact of the views which are being passed onto them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Hawk (Post 642678)

So the show isn't offensive therefore the people get offended for no reason then? Like I said, that doesn't happen, the TV show has to be offensive.

People get offended for no reason all the time. There were record complaints for the Russell Brand and Johnathan Ross 'incident' last year, and Jerry Springer: the opera a few years back. The show was even cancelled for a time. In both these incidents almost 90% of people complaining had not seen, or heard the things they were complaining about.

I could say i'm 'offended' about lots of shows on TV, they have no intellectual value and are a complete waste of money. Should they be cancelled becasue of what i think? Why are my views of what is offensive less relevant than other peoples?


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