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Coder59 02-26-10 12:04 AM

Chapters into Legions (Pulling a fast one on Guilliman)
 
We all know that Guilliman split the Legions during the second founding.

BUT.

Could there be some Legions that while they obeyed the wording of the law they didn't obey it's spirit. Could some First Founding Chapters still potentially call up Legion sized forces if they felt the need?

Now there are three forces I feel could potentially do this.

The Black Templars are pretty much a given since nobody knows how many crusade fleets they have dotted around the galaxy and it's highly likely they could easily call together a Legion sized force.

Space Wolves. Pretty much free from investigation nobody knows how many space wolves there are. It certainly seems like they have more battle brothers than the Codex Astartes would allow but if they come close to anything resembling Legion size i don't really know.

Dark Angels. Sure they split into a multitude of other chapters all calling themselves the Unforgiven... BUT all those second founding chapters still take orders from the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels. Given the nature of the Angels it doesn't seem that unlikely that under the right circumstances (such as somebody actually finding out about The Fallen and deciding to do something about it,) the Dark Angels could call on something of up to a Legion sized force....An Unforgiven Legion if you will.

Of course I don't see this happening under anything less than the most dire of circumstances, such as Terra being under direct threat or something similar.

But it's definatly got me thinking.

gen.ahab 02-26-10 12:19 AM

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The space wolves are probably the only chapter whose numbers could possibly come close to the size of the original legions. The great companies could range from so low as 150 to as large as 1000 so if we are to assume that they are 1000 battle brothers strong then that would put them at 12000 which is still lower than the 20000 held by the legions.

Coder59 02-26-10 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gen.ahab (Post 577422)
The space wolves are probably the only chapter whose numbers could possibly come close to the size of the original legions. The great companies could range from so low as 150 to as large as 1000 so if we are to assume that they are 1000 battle brothers strong then that would put them at 12000 which is still lower than the 20000 held by the legions.

Actually that still puts them at Legion strength since i believe the standard size for one of the Legions was 10,000 marines.
I didn't exactly mean which Chapters have Legion sized forces i mean which chapters could potentially call together such a force. Hence the Black Templars and the Dark Angels.

I still think the Angels are the most likely. All the Unforgiven seem to be operating in some sort of loose network.

Fallen 02-26-10 12:23 AM

i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions, maybe 2-3 times the size that the codex allows. which is why russ was so adamant against it, also the reason why they only had 1 second founding chapter (wolf brothers).

and i also believe that they are still somewhat near their original legion size.

gen.ahab 02-26-10 12:36 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen (Post 577427)
i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions, maybe 2-3 times the size that the codex allows. which is why russ was so adamant against it, also the reason why they only had 1 second founding chapter (wolf brothers).

and i also believe that they are still somewhat near their original legion size.

No, they refuse to fallow the codex because they refuse to allow someone to tell them how to run their army. It isn't because they were too small, it is because they are fiercely independent. And since they do not fallow the codex there is no reason to form successor chapters.

Baron Spikey 02-26-10 12:36 AM

Well this discussion about the Space Wolves Chapter size has been hammered out before, and the Space Wolves Codex states that Ragnar's Company is 2nd only the Great Wolf's and that it contains 200 warriors- that does suggest that whilst the SW are larger than a Codex Chapter they aren't nearly as large as the projected numbers for the Black Templars (max of 5,000-6,000).

Remember that the Space Wolves were seriously mauled in the burning of Prospero, their clash with the Alpha Legion fleet en-route to Terra, and The Scourging directly after the Heresy. They only split into 2 Chapters and I sincerely doubt there were more than 3,000-4,000 marines left of the Legion when the 2nd Founding occurred.

I agree that the Unforgiven are one of closest group of independent Chapters, at least in my opinion- though strict Codex Chapters (especially those of Guillimans stock) would probably rally to the call of the Ultramarines, of course the Imperial Fists are the singularly most influential Chapter of the Astartes (the Ultramarines are probably more influential amongst the Astartes but in the wider Imperium the IF are more highly regarded).

Child-of-the-Emperor 02-26-10 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gen.ahab (Post 577422)
the 20000 held by the legions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coder59 (Post 577426)
i believe the standard size for one of the Legions was 10,000 marines.

Depending on what source you use the Legion sizes range on average from 10,000 to 100,000. With some sources claiming the largest Legion (Ultramarines) even being as high as 250,000.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen (Post 577427)
i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions

I don't believe thats even hinted at anywhere.

As for First Founding Chapters being able to draw together their successive founded chapters into a coherent force, I imagine its plausable. As you said the Dark Angels spring to mind. But heck, I imagine even the Ultramarines could draw together a large number of their successor chapters into a coherent force.

gen.ahab 02-26-10 12:53 AM

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I would put them at a somewhat higher number, possibly 4000 men. Perspero wasn’t much of a fight from what I heard, although I could be wrong, and they had the custodians to back them up. I was under the impression that the contingent of custodians what were sent did a considerable amount of damage to the thousand sons. The space battle against the alpha legion would have been a much more difficult fight since they would have been lead by the primarch. I would put them at maybe 7000 at the end but no more. As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.

Child-of-the-Emperor 02-26-10 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gen.ahab (Post 577439)
I would put them at a somewhat higher number, possibly 4000 men. Perspero wasn’t much of a fight from what I heard, although I could be wrong, and they had the custodians to back them up. I was under the impression that the contingent of custodians what were sent did a considerable amount of damage to the thousand sons. The space battle against the alpha legion would have been a much more difficult fight since they would have been lead by the primarch.

The Burning of Prospero was devastating for the Space Wolves. They may have triumphed, but they got badly mauled in the process. And as the Baron said the subsequent Alpha Legion ambush and the wars of the Scourging would have only further reduced their numbers.

At the time of the second founding the Space Wolves would have been a far cry (number wise) from where they were at their peak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gen.ahab (Post 577439)
As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.

well six known successor chapters aswell as the Dark Angels Chapter themselves would mean at least 7000 Astartes, and thats if they strictly keep to the Codex. By the implications we have that would mean they could pull more men than the Black Templars, although it isn't fully clear as an accurate number of the Templars can never be taken.

Coder59 02-26-10 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gen.ahab (Post 577439)
As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.

If there are only six known chapters that still puts the hypothetical "Unforgiven Legion" (I really am starting to love that name) at an equal strength to the Black Templars


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