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-   -   Chaos: Bolter, pistol, and ccw. = 2 attacks? (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-rules-discussion/4307-chaos-bolter-pistol-ccw-%3D-2-attacks.html)

Culler 12-28-07 10:49 PM

Chaos: Bolter, pistol, and ccw. = 2 attacks?
 
Basically I'm wondering if because all chaos marines are listed as having a bolt pistol, close combat weapon, and bolter, if they can make 2 attacks in close combat (before charging). To my understanding, they don't even come with ways to model both sets of weapons on the same model. Do you have to pick between pistol/ccw and bolter or do can you bolter your enemies on the way in, then whipe out the pistol and ccw to charge and get more close combat attacks?

That would make not having ATSKNF worthwhile.

I searched this forum as well as I was able to find an answer beforehand.

Blackhiker 12-28-07 10:51 PM

you have to choose the set that your guys will be using before the game

Frostbite 12-28-07 11:00 PM

Actually, they get both standard. So yes, you have a bolter, get two attacks in hand to hand and may shoot once and still charge. They also get Frag and Krak grenades standard. As for modeling, I'm managed to get a full squad properly modeled with WYSIWYG, by mixing who has a bolter and who has the bolt pistol and CCW, while gluing the other weapons to the backpack or showing it dropped on the ground.

Blackhiker 12-28-07 11:07 PM

Characters are only allowed to purchase two weapons, so why would the basic infantry be allowed to have more than the characters?

RPD_Tyrant 12-28-07 11:43 PM

I guess its because Chaos is FTW :victory:

Tiberius 12-29-07 12:02 AM

actually it is the direction GW is headed, back to the roots of the game. All MArines will have a basic weapons list beyond a Bolter. it started with Codex Dark Angels, then the Blood Angels list. Chaos was just the next one done.

Bishop120 12-29-07 12:15 AM

Yes it is the new route that GW is going to give armies all their wargear that they would actually have fluff wise. I think their finally wising up and takeing away the stupid wargear "options" and makeing them standard and giving troops true options. Lets just hope they stay consistant and do the same for SM when time comes around or I will be pissed.

Galahad 12-29-07 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhiker (Post 49683)
Characters are only allowed to purchase two weapons, so why would the basic infantry be allowed to have more than the characters?

Characters are only allowed to *purchase* two weapons from the *armoury* according to the *old* codex.

There is not now, nor has there ever been any limitation on the number of weapons any one model may actually *have* only how many extra weapons they may purchase.

The old codex limited how many weapons you could buy, bot the core rules says nothing about how many you can carry.

The new codex has no armoury to speak of, and therefore no restrictions except where listed in the unit's options. All Chaos SM are equipped with a pistol, a chainsword and a bolter. All at once.

This is what holsters, scabbards and carrying straps are for.

Now, they do go out of their way to say that certain weapon options will replace your weapons now (May replace bis bolt pistol with a plasma pistol, for example) but other than that, there's no artificial restriction telling you how much gear you can carry.

Likewise, chaos bikes no longer give a bonus attack...BUT they no longer deny you an extra attack for having 2 CCWs, so chaos bikers (who get both pistols and chainswords) still have a bonus attack.

TH3F4LL3NT3MPL4R 01-09-08 12:30 AM

OK, hold on, tell me if I'm wrong but you are saying I can model a squad with BP and CCW and still rapid fire using their normal bolters? All because it simpley says they have them?

mgtymouze 01-09-08 12:53 AM

Yes as long as you follow the rules for types of weapons. Rapid fire in one round and then next shoot bolt pistol and charge next round. Problem is you need to have the stuff modeled on them if you are in a tournament WYSIWYG. Those silly torn cloth thingys with a holster are coming in handy now as well as scratch building slings to put bolters on my Bolt pistol and CCW guys. As far as the bolter guys go, slap the combat blade on a leg, belt, arm.

Galahad 01-09-08 08:14 AM

Bear in mind, unless you have special rules (like monstrous creature) you still only get to fire ONE weapon.

And if that weapon you fire is a Rapid Fire weapon (regardless of whether you fire one or two shots) then you may NOT charge that round. However, you could opt to fire your pistols instead and then charge (this is why new space marines like BA and DA get pistols and bolters).

However, if that weapon you fire is an Assault Weapon (like a meltagun) not only can you still charge, but you still get a bonus attack for having a pistol and chainsword. And if you fire your bolter and *get* charged, you also get a bonus attack.

The rules are pretty clear, and so is the intent. In this case they both happen to agree ;-)

And before anyone starts talking about whether or not it makes sense, remember these three terms: "Holster" "Scabbard" "Rifle Sling"

Further fun note: Chaos bikes no longer grant a bonus attack, but they no longer *deny* you an attack for having two weapons (and chaos bikers have pistols and swords), so they can drive a bike, fire its onboard weapons and still use both hands in combat.

SyNide 01-09-08 10:43 AM

Yes, chaos still gets +1 attack for having 2 ccws. and you don't have to choose which set of weapons you want, anyone who tells you otherwise is just sad that his army doesn't get it.

CyDoN 01-09-08 12:33 PM

so i can: Rapid Fire with my bolter then Assault and shoot with the pistol and slay with the chainsword with 2 CC attacks?

Does bolt pistol couts as a close combat weapon?

Asmodai 01-09-08 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyDoN (Post 53075)
so i can: Rapid Fire with my bolter then Assault and shoot with the pistol and slay with the chainsword with 2 CC attacks?

Does bolt pistol couts as a close combat weapon?

No, because if you rapid fire you can't assault.

Yes on the second question.

Galahad 01-09-08 02:49 PM

You can, however, fire your pistol once INSTEAD of your bolter and then charge into assault.

Or you could fire your bolter, stand still and *get* assaulted, and still use the pistol and chainsword in CC

It gives you more options, but it doesn't let you bypass the rules.

Bishop120 01-09-08 03:16 PM

Except the unspoken rule of 2 1Handers or 1 2Hander + 1 1Hander as far as weapons go. Makes chaos very flexible and better in HtH than Imperial marines. bahhh.. just ignore my Imperial jelousy of Chaos wargear.

bl0203 01-09-08 08:19 PM

What I don't understand is why they didn't give Blood Angels the CCW in their equipment. FLUFF wise you would think they would be equiped with CCW due to their nature. Is that asking to much?

Bishop120 01-09-08 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bl0203 (Post 53189)
What I don't understand is why they didn't give Blood Angels the CCW in their equipment. FLUFF wise you would think they would be equiped with CCW due to their nature. Is that asking to much?

Fluff wise ALL marines would have it in their equipment as well as BP, Bolter, Frag and Krack grenades. Heck even every imperial soldier would have a CCW (bayonet, combat knife, knife from their mess kit). GW have been murdering fluff these past couple years. EoT was the last decent bit of fluff Ive seen from them game wise.

Galahad 01-10-08 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bishop120 (Post 53103)
Except the unspoken rule of 2 1Handers or 1 2Hander + 1 1Hander as far as weapons go. Makes chaos very flexible and better in HtH than Imperial marines. bahhh.. just ignore my Imperial jelousy of Chaos wargear.

Except that it's not a rule, spoken or otherwise. And it never has been.
It is a rule that limits how many things you may purchase from the wargear list, but it is not, nor has it ever been a rule that limits how many weapons a model may carry or be equipped with.

As for BA, fluff wise BA have *always* been a very codex-adherent chapter. With the exception of a couple of special vehicles and a couple of special units, BA have always fielded straight, codex-style battle companies and units. The codex does not call for chainswords on tactical or devastator squads.

Remember, the red thirst and black rage is something the BA try to *resist*, not embrace. Tactical squads are meant to be flexable fire support, and dev squads are meant to be stationary firebases. The presence of a strong close combat option (chainswords) in either of these units would only serve as a temptation and a distraction for the brothers who are valiantly trying to resist their bloody urges. Chainswords would not help either of these squads do their job better and would only tempt them to abandon their post and leap into the fray.

It would be like giving a recovering drug addict a big jar of smack because fluff-wise, he always liked getting tweaked, even if it means he;s not doing his job right because of it.

Also note that chaos marines have the option of replacing their heavy weapons for special weapons, so that a CC-armed havoc squad is actually *good* (give them a couple flamers and meltaguns and put them in a rhino), meanwhile SM lack these options, so instead you;re dragging a bunch of heavy guns into assault where they become an expensive liability.

Bishop120 01-14-08 05:55 AM

Has anyone thought of the possibility that GW is going to change the way that CC works in 5th edition?? Possibly changing the way that attacks are calculated and such??

If you look through all the wargear descriptions in the new codexs there are only 3 types of weapons now... Heavy, Ranged, and CCWs. Pistols are listed under Ranged. If you look through unit descriptions it never specifies the type of weapons they are picking just certain weapons may replace certain other weapons. The units which are obviously HtH oriented have profiles which reflect that ergo Berserkers/Orks having 2A base. Now another possibilty is that they will say that if you HAVE a "close combat weapon" you get the extra attack. And that would also fit. All Im saying is that these new codexes allude (IMO) to a change in the way close combat is going to work in 5th edition.

The Wraithlord 01-14-08 07:03 AM

Quite possible Bishop, given some of the rumours floating around the net on that very topic.

Galahad 01-22-08 06:07 AM

From what I've seen of 5th ed, calculating attacks goes pretty much as normal. Pistols still give a bonus (though you no longer get a bonus if you have a powerfist, unless you have 2, or a fist and a hammer)

However, True Grit has been removed from the USR.

So Space Wolves and GKs my end up with some minor changes. Either additional equipment like pistols and chainswords for wolves, or pistols for GKs, or one-off special rules like "Grey Knights treat Stormbolters as Pistols in assault"

Bishop120 01-23-08 03:32 AM

Where have they posted rumors that True Grit is gone from 5th? Thats one I seem to have missed as well as the changes about PF/Hammers..

Culler 01-23-08 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bishop120 (Post 57324)
Where have they posted rumors that True Grit is gone from 5th? Thats one I seem to have missed as well as the changes about PF/Hammers..

From my rumor source it seems that true grit has indeed been removed. Keep in mind, that even if I did have the leaked 5e rulebook I'm not supposed to say so according to the mods. So, I definitely do not have it. And I heard rumors to the effect that true grit was gone from an unspecified source. All is subject to change anyhow, mind you, and leaked details of 5e can be changed til the book hits the shelves. Don't go replanning any armies just yet.


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