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Lupercal101 04-22-09 12:22 PM

Chaos Grey Knights (something that makes sense)
 
I have wanted to make a chaos grey knight army 4 a while but it dosen't make any sense cince grey knights can't fall to chaos. So I thought what if they were dead Grey Knight who had been brought to life by a chaos sorcerer! their armour and bodies could be mauled (because they died of that on the batlefield) if people like that sort of thing, or someone might have planted a bomb where the air tanks were on a grey knight battle barge and let them off after the ship had left orbit. Then the weapons,armour,bodies would have been perfectly preserved if people want a normal grey knight force, just chaotic! it's just an idea but tell me what you think.

World Eater XII 04-22-09 12:25 PM

It would be good but i think using the GK codex and then use it as a basis of a uber elite chaos force with the same shite but with a chaos/daemonic twist..dead GK brough back to life seems a bit odd to me, even in the 40k 'verse

Eliazar 04-22-09 12:51 PM

I don't think that there was ever and incident when Grey Knights died in huge numbers and their gene seed was not recovered.

And I don't think that you can just secretly sneak onto their battle barge and blow up the whole oxygen supply so they all suffocate. Further, I wonder if Chaos can bring back sapient zombies in large numbers. If not, you'd have a force of grey knight bodies with damages brains (due to the cut off oxygen supply), so without being a real killer anymore.

Thus, I'd second the World Eater's advice - use the Grey Knights codes as an Elite force, like Black Legion CSM who were once upon a time members of the First Company of the Luna Wolves, for example.

Red Orc 04-22-09 03:47 PM

I wouldn't have a problem with it personally, as long as it was a Grey Knights legal list and the models were clear about what they represented... but I've been demoted from "Team Fluff" and had to go and play with the much less cool "Team Counts-As" (Coach, Galahad G. Galahad) recently, so you don't have to take any notice of anything I say.

:using Codex: Yoghurt to represent a cyclops:

normtheunsavoury 04-22-09 04:35 PM

I've always quite liked the idea of Chaotic GK, but I'm yet to come across a good reason for them fluff wise.
I suppose another reason could be they are a failed early experiment, thought destroyed but now they have resurfaced. A few thousand years of fighting in the Eye of Terror has made up for any deficiencies they may have had as 'not quite finished' Grey Knights, and although fluff wise they may be different stat wise they could be identical.

Chaos GK are always going to be difficult to pull off thanks to so many "I know that no Grey Knights have ever fallen to Chaos, these are the only ones." stories in GW and gaming clubs since the GK were invented.

Good luck with it though, I'll keep an eye on this one and see what people come up with.

revenant13 04-22-09 06:58 PM

When GK die arent the bodies taken back to Titan? if not, then i see no problem with that reasoning.

Son of mortarion 04-22-09 09:48 PM

It does seem as if the reasoning is iffy, more an excuse to have grey knights that are servants of chaos because you want grey knights, than a real, "it could happen in the 40k universe" reason.

Instead of trying to make a grey knight that serves chaos, how about making a servant of chaos that is equivalent, like Red Orc said. Instead of a nemisis force halberd, a minor daemon weapon, instead of psycannons, warp infused heavy bolter/autocannon/stubber type weapon, there is no reason that you can't take the rules, apply the "counts as" principle, and then create a good, fluffy unit. Just avoid any reasoning that requires a '"what if," that tends towards rationalizing bending/breaking fluff and or rules for who can ally with who.

Red Orc 04-22-09 10:22 PM

Yes. Exactly what Son of Mortarian said. That's what I should have said, if I was being helpful instead of a doofus.

As pretty much everyone has suggested so far, in fact, the best way to go seems to be an elite daemon-infested force that has the same stats as GK, but a different justification.

It does get very very complex if you want allies though. Chaos marine allies have to be loyalist marines that 'count as chaos'... but you can take inducted 'traitor' guard, I guess... and crucially, your models must be clear if you're using the 'counts as' principle.

For instance, I use the Blood Angel Codex for my Chaos marines force. But my Chaos marines are red, except for my "Death Eaters" (Death Company World Eaters) who are painted black. My 'regular' berzerkers have bone helmets (like the BA yellow helmets) etc. So apart from the models being chaosy, the paintwork 'looks' BA (and colour, eg of helmets, is the main difference between BA units), so there should be no surprises for my opponent.

As long as you bear in mind the principle that what you're representing should be obvious and/or logical (so things that look the same have the same rules), 'counts as' can be a really liberating way to play.

But, whether you decide to go down the 'somehow corrupted Grey Knights' route, or the 'elite Chaos force that just happens to use the Daemonhunter Army list' route, I'd be interested to hear what you come up with to explain these terrifying new servants of Chaos!

:agog cyclops:

Fester 04-22-09 11:10 PM

Well one way, least on Apoc games. Field Grey Knight models as your zombies, for the Plague of Zombies unit choice. Though you would lose any thing special about them, that way.

Lupercal101 04-23-09 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of mortarion (Post 368673)
It does seem as if the reasoning is iffy, more an excuse to have grey knights that are servants of chaos because you want grey knights, than a real, "it could happen in the 40k universe" reason.

Instead of trying to make a grey knight that serves chaos, how about making a servant of chaos that is equivalent, like Red Orc said. Instead of a nemisis force halberd, a minor daemon weapon, instead of psycannons, warp infused heavy bolter/autocannon/stubber type weapon, there is no reason that you can't take the rules, apply the "counts as" principle, and then create a good, fluffy unit. Just avoid any reasoning that requires a '"what if," that tends towards rationalizing bending/breaking fluff and or rules for who can ally with who.

But then their not grey knights. If you combined normtheunsavory's idea with that it would make more sense, like the first grey knights were faulty so they decided to kill them but the faulty grey knights found out before they were killed so they ran away and gave their fealty to chaos because they felt they had been betrayed.I would also look cool, with a deamon halberd and stuff like that

World Eater XII 04-23-09 08:07 AM

I think a using the GK codex with a daemonic/chaos twist to represent say abbadon's elite termies/retuine, would be easier instead of trying to jump and break the "no GK has ever fallen to chaos" bandwagon.

Red Orc 04-23-09 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lupercal101 (Post 368994)
But then their not grey knights...

...which is the point. Chaos doesn't have Grey Knights. Therefore, if you want to field them as a Chaos force, they're not Grey Knights.

We're all suggesting that instead of thinking "how can I justify Grey Knights falling to Chaos?" ie "how can I make something that's explicitly never happened in the 40k universe happen?", a better way of looking at is "what could be a Grey Knight equivalent for Chaos?" and having an elite Chaos army with Daemonic Halberds and Warpcannons and Black Crusaders (actually, I really like the idea of Black Crusaders... yoink! - the sound of me stealing my own idea...) and such like.

:by the book cyclops:

Talos 04-23-09 11:56 AM

If you are doing count as I good count as for the psycannon would be the Old Kai gun which fires the hatred of the user at the enemy.
I dont believe at all that a GK cant fall to chaos.
In daemon world a GK very nearly does fall to Chaos and this guy is a badass GK. If a normal GK was put in his position it would have either died or turned.

Eliazar 04-23-09 03:19 PM

I agree with the notion that Chaotic Grey Knights are not possible, at least not in any numbers that you could field them as an army. I'd say, if you like the Codex, or the challenge of converting Grey Knights to Chaos, go for a "counts as" army.

Further, I think making up a cool theme for an individual "counts as" army is much better and much more rewarding than making up some super-strange, far off explanation just to use the Codex. If I was fighting, say the fallen First Company, I'd say "Hey, cool idea!", but if I was fighting a horde of Zombie Grey Knights killed by a mysterious bomb that left their bodies and equipment whole and resurrected by an evil space necromancer of Chaos, I'd say "OMG..."

Klomster 04-23-09 03:50 PM

The most simple thing to do is this.

Theese are my chaos dudes.
They are strangely similar to grey knights, with deamon halberds, knight style helmets and deamonic mutations.

They are not grey knights but have things that makes grey knights cool.

It's not even worth trying to get anyone to think "they are chaos grey knights" even chaos players would agree with loyalists in that scenario.

With the strangely similar way of doing it though, you can even use the gk models.
Just chaosify them enough and remove all gk heraldry.

I say this as an devoted grey knight player.

Lupercal101 04-23-09 11:29 PM

I'm not trying to break the 'no grey knight has ever fallen to chaos bandwagon', but as i said before the first grey knights could have been faulty, so the Imperium tried to destroy them but the grey knights found out before that happened and ran away. they tried t re-enter the imperium but there was a 'exommunate tratoris' on them and they were attack every time they revealed themselves.

it would kind of be like the whole eldar thing where the majority of the group stayed (eldar) true bt some of them went renagaed (dark eldar). Mabye they felt like the emperor had betrayed them by not doing anything to change this an if he was alive/kind/watching he would have seen they were pure. Maybe, like the dark eldar, they didn't devote themselves to chaos but became 'freedom fighters' or mercinaries or something. or maybe they joined chaos un-divided and started there own cult. so then in the game they could be leaders of a rebel army or part of abaddons peronal retinue and stuff like that.

Iraqiel 04-24-09 04:10 AM

6 Attachment(s)
I really think that having an association with fallen grey knights is only a good idea if you like butting your head against a concrete wall - take that as either metaphorical or literal, it doesn't really matter.

It just seems to be an immutable law that grey knights, as a whole chapter, are the most bloody minded and infallible of the emperor's servants. Having said that, has a custodian ever fallen? What if you made your army a chapter of renegades led by a fallen Adeptus Custodes marine who has trained them personally?

Col. Schafer 04-24-09 04:34 AM

How about alpha liegon or someone equaly wierd impersonating grey knights?

Shugotenshi47 04-24-09 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talos (Post 369252)
If you are doing count as I good count as for the psycannon would be the Old Kai gun which fires the hatred of the user at the enemy.
I dont believe at all that a GK cant fall to chaos.
In daemon world a GK very nearly does fall to Chaos and this guy is a badass GK. If a normal GK was put in his position it would have either died or turned.

My take on it is that the only reason why he lived long enough to be put in that position was he was so badass anyone of lesser skill would have been killed a long time before (see spoiler bellow for reasoning). I think that because the only ones that can live long enough to be put in a position where they are broken down to such a level are stronger enough to overcome makes them incorruptible

Spoiler:



such as his battle-brother who was killed in their first fight in the arena

Concrete Hero 04-24-09 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lupercal101 (Post 369763)
it would kind of be like the whole eldar thing where the majority of the group stayed (eldar) true bt some of them went renagaed (dark eldar).


Just wanting to point out; Its sort of the opposite with the Eldar. The Dark Eldar are the ones who have stayed with their decadent ways and it is the 'Eldar' who have reformed themselves and changed, DarK Eldar aren't renegade :)

Talos 04-24-09 11:36 AM

I think if you really wanted to put a grey knight in your Army then you should only have one as your HQ. Maybe he was sent on a mission to cleanse a world but was captured and then tortured for thousands of years and finally cracked. Although it would be a bit pointless as by fluff he should not have his armour or weapons as they hurt daemons around him so he would have gotten rid of them.
I think its better just to let the whole Chaos grey knights rest.

Klomster 04-24-09 04:24 PM

I'm getting your thoughts here mr OP.

Your referring to your chaos grey knights as beeing grey knights MK 1, an experiment that failed.

It didn't meet the specifications (ie, all of them got corrupted at once, not very succesful)
So the imperium excomunicated them like the flame falcons.

The flame falcons was (for the ones that don't know) a cursed founding chapter that after a battle ignited with strange flames.

It didn't hurt them and the falcons thought it was a gift from the emperor and feasted in celebration.
The grey knights, did not. The grey knights followed their orders and exterminated the entire chapter.
A few flame falcons is rumoured to have gotten away, feeling betrayed by their imperium, and with burning bodies, theres no real way of coming back.

Anyway, you mean that your chaos grey knights would be grey knights MK 1, and the grey knights that have never suffered a single brother to fall to chaos are grey knights MK 2.

This thought isn't really that bad but the others didn't really think of it as soon as i did. (Or perhaps you did, i began thinking he meant it at my last post.)

Chaoz94 04-24-09 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lupercal101 (Post 369763)
I'm not trying to break the 'no grey knight has ever fallen to chaos bandwagon', but as i said before the first grey knights could have been faulty, so the Imperium tried to destroy them but the grey knights found out before that happened and ran away. they tried t re-enter the imperium but there was a 'exommunate tratoris' on them and they were attack every time they revealed themselves.

it would kind of be like the whole eldar thing where the majority of the group stayed (eldar) true bt some of them went renagaed (dark eldar). Mabye they felt like the emperor had betrayed them by not doing anything to change this an if he was alive/kind/watching he would have seen they were pure. Maybe, like the dark eldar, they didn't devote themselves to chaos but became 'freedom fighters' or mercinaries or something. or maybe they joined chaos un-divided and started there own cult. so then in the game they could be leaders of a rebel army or part of abaddons peronal retinue and stuff like that.

hm i made some fluff for units which were like "chaos grey knights" but theyre not exactly "chaos grey knights"

https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=33961

normtheunsavoury 04-24-09 10:13 PM

Chaoz94's idea is cool, I like it.
It gives you a great reason for Chaos Grey Knights and keeps things nice and fluffy by incorporating Bile and Abaddon. Cool Idea and worth some rep I think.

Chaoz94 04-24-09 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 370599)
Chaoz94's idea is cool, I like it.
It gives you a great reason for Chaos Grey Knights and keeps things nice and fluffy by incorporating Bile and Abaddon. Cool Idea and worth some rep I think.

thanks im glad people like it
infact im gonna make an army using the demonhunters codex with my chaos space marines (they will just be normal "counts as" spacemarines") so when that happens look in my sig

p.s thanks for the rep :)

chaoz

lawrence96 04-24-09 10:30 PM

strange idea here,

perhaps they can be GKs that are still loyal to the emporer and believe he will resurect once killed (like certain members of the inq. are supposed to) and therefore tried to get to the emporer to resurect him, and as such were then deemed excommunicate.

Lupercal101 04-25-09 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concrete Hero (Post 370108)
Just wanting to point out; Its sort of the opposite with the Eldar. The Dark Eldar are the ones who have stayed with their decadent ways and it is the 'Eldar' who have reformed themselves and changed, DarK Eldar aren't renegade :)

Oh okay, but you get what i mean, right

Asmodeun 05-31-09 07:41 AM

I like lawrence 96's idea.
Death to the emperor! (if he reincarnated, I'd return to humanity's side, where I ought belong)

AntiPaladin 06-01-09 05:00 AM

Chaoz94 beat me to it, but that would be my suggestion. Create a force that can justify having all their abilities with your own fluff. Maybe Alpharius and Omegon decided they wanted their own elite uber unit and modeled it after what they saw as the perfect Imperial unit, the Grey knights?

Very little fluff in 40k is totally immutable, but this happens to be one of them because it's specifically mentioned as having never happened. Just like you couldn't justify calling your home-brew chapter the 1st legion ever raised by the Emperor - that's the Dark Angels, and stated quite clearly.

Warlock in Training 06-02-09 01:46 AM

I still think the idea of Represented as a uber Chaotic Band with Deamon Weapons, Kai Guns, and Cursed Armore (Shrouding, Psy defense, ect.) is much more plausible, challeging and interesting approach to this delima.

Chaoz94 06-02-09 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warlock in Training (Post 400233)
I still think the idea of Represented as a uber Chaotic Band with Deamon Weapons, Kai Guns, and Cursed Armore (Shrouding, Psy defense, ect.) is much more plausible, challeging and interesting approach to this delima.

may i point you to my thread again :P lol (annoying attempt at advertising but still)


https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=33961

PowerEncarnate 06-02-09 05:15 PM

but on a side note some GKs have been "lost" in the long fight with the dark powers never to be recovered but they were in small numbers and a fallen GK would debase there armor and weapons just as Word Bearers chaplains did with there croziuses. now the "no GK has fallen" Fluff should have a invisible "to the knowledge of the imperium" added and if one of these "lost" brothers fell to chaos whats to stop him from gathering a warband of his own maybe by inlisting the aid of fabius bile to be cloned several 100 times and training them himself and that could explain why we havent seen them as of yet.

that being said its still weak at best unless you homebrew the codex for them
as Daemonhunters codex is to anti-chaos as it stands even then still weak

Franko1111 06-03-09 08:27 AM

the grey knights have ward under there skin that resistases deamons and so the chaos gods wouldn't like them:)

PowerEncarnate 06-03-09 04:20 PM

@Franko1111
where did you come up with that? a ward under their skin? um...no. on their armor maybe but ive never seen anything even emplying "under the skin"

Lupercal101 06-04-09 06:41 AM

it not under the skin, it's actually on their black carapace. (not sure if thats under the skin) i'm not saying that they turned to chaos, but Grey Knights have lost battle before right? so, say this powerful chaos sorcerer sees them fighting and thinks "wow, there really uber, i want one". so, the grey knights lost that battle and he goes out and removes all their warded crap, puts the bodys in stasis. them he collects grey knight bodies from heaps of battle fields for a couple of hundred years, uses favor fabious bile owes him, has black carapace from normal CSM and aromour put on 'em, resurrects them and hey presto! you've got a zombie grey knight force. yay.

Chaoz94 06-05-09 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franko1111 (Post 401583)
the chaos gods wouldn't like them

MADNESS
THIS IS SPARTAAAAAA!!!!
ok end randomness
seriously grey knights are amongst the best warriors the imperium has ,
there apparently stronger than the adeptus astarteres (sp?)
and considering the chaos gods accept normal marines im sure grey knights would be wanted majorly by chaos



chaoz

Son of Russ 06-06-09 12:57 AM

Of all the advice given, I beleive that Red Orc stated it succinctly in the "how" and "why", in creating an elite Chaos Knight in the mould of the Grey Knights.....I believe that would be your best route.

giikbesouw 07-06-10 07:35 AM

sorry for reviving an old thread

i found this on lexicanum

Grey Knights Chaplains fulfill the same functions as in other Marine chapters, albeit on a much higher level, as they have to minister to the spiritual needs of soldiers destined to fight the most horrible of foes. They are rare specimens indeed, and the Chapter has precious few of them. Yet, thanks to them, not one Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos.

so what if the chaplains get killed and the grey knights can be corrupted by chaos

gothik 07-06-10 11:12 AM

no mater what is done the GK wont fall as i think established history says it cant happen adn dont they get indoctrined and moind cleared or somethng to prevent such a thing happening. could be wrong but not being a table top player i am not sure how this would work stillgood luck with it.

Ravingbantha 07-06-10 10:12 PM

The whole idea that a GK cannot fall to Chaos is simply stupid. Everything that mankind does is imperfect and thus inhernt to being flawed. While I think it may be nearly impossible for a GK to fall, I think it is still possible. Tzeentch would be the most liekly to suceed in this, followed by Khorn, Nurgle, and Slaanesh (though I highly douby it). Though it may be an extremly rare occurance I would say it is possible.

However you could simply say that Abaddon or even Fabuis Bile got ahold of some GK potentials and turned them into an Evil GK using information they got from a tortured or even fallen Inquisitor.


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